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A Conscious Creator - 7/7/2008 9:17:38 AM
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hellohellohi
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Hello,
I assume that intelligence, as in intelligent design, implies a conscious, intentional, subjective personhood behind the intelligent creation!
Fine. However, I am struck by the fact that the only way that science can interact with a consciousness (in order, for instance, to draw up neural correlates for subjective, phenomenological experience) is to speak to is and to ask, in language, questions -- to ask for the subjective subject  to REPORT. This is a nice word to hold as key.
For instance, the only way a human can investigate scientifically whether another human is conscious is to, say, measure one's own physical neural correlates (fMRI, EEG, etc.) and then look for these correlates in another human. Now these other correlating correlates only become interesting when behavior is observed on the part of the other which the original tester or inquirer can relate to -- so that one's neural correlates appear, indeed, to correlate with another's. Right? In many instances, however, the only BEHAVIOR that can be observed is a person's voluntary reporting. Such as: if we would like to investigate the neural-correlates of "red," we show a subject red, making sure to say, "Do you see the object?" -- if they were blind, and we hadn't asked, we may get results different from the norm.
So -- how could we confirm as scientists whether the creator is a conscious personality?
Let's say we can call hypothetically irreducibly complex systems evidence for a conscious engineer-creator. So, we have the behavior part of the equation. Now, I won't be so mean as to ask for neural correlates of a creator, but it makes little difference. Whether we have a physical brain or not, we cannot peer inside to "see" interiority. At some point, we must ask the conscious subject a question.
If as scientist we are interested in the conscious creator of the universe, we eventually ought to ask it questions: Why did you do this, rather than that? And so on. (BTW, if we are not asking questions, are we scientists? No, I suggest we deserve a different title of some sort. I cannot imagine scientist who does not ask questions of the universe that s/he imagines can be investigated.)
If a metal man of apparent intelligence dropped out of the sky, we would certainly be interested in questions of its origins. However, we might also be interested in the thing's own intelligence and the question of whether it is conscious or simply appears so. What could a scientist do? To be fair, a scientist would have to use the same criteria as that for humans -- begin with a voluntary interview. Neural correlation may not be applicable, and so we might choose to relax this criteria -- however, I must note that such measures are that by which medical scientists judge a person effectively alive or dead, as we all know.
So, you see, we may have evidence of a creator (some woudl argue) as real as if a metal man of intelligence dropped from the sky. We have intelligently engineered organic systems instead.
But, then, is the creator now alive or dead?
Once evidence for an intelligent personality has been found (such as behavior) the usual next step is to exclaim -- who are you?!
Even science has proceeded from merely investigating objective observable phenomena commonly thought to be associated with consciousness (such as Skinner box methods) to asking the consciousness questions in whatever way that can be realized. Such as, when investigating the conscious states of BABIES, some scientists have found it expedient to observe the child's rate of sucking, using a pacifi-o-meter, if you will allow me to invent a word for the purpose of creating an image. Some would argue that conscious, intentional states of animals can also be the subject of scientific investigation.
So, might the conscious intentional state of "the gods" be investigated?
Would it be by interview alone, or can we devise another method of inquiry?
Please, if we would like to advance ID, we must begin asking the conscious creator some questions.
I, personally, am stuck on the "interview" method.
Since I already believe in God the Father and Co. I can only hold that the apparent Creator of the universe is also Him, and since I believe one is asked to interact with Him on a personal level, I am inclined to just ask Him questions. Really, I have no personal need for method in this area. He is a loving God, and therefore will tell me anything He desires for me or I ought to know. some of the things I ask, thus, may get answered.
That is, personally, I can dispense with the scientific method -- and even deductive logic -- when it comes to investigating God.
However, I am open to hear other people's perspectives. Are there other methods (any scientific ones, for instance) for asking questions of the conscious creator?
Can science ask, "Who are you?" Can science ask, "Are you living or dead?" "Are you currently involved in engineering?" "Do you ever make alterations -- Do you ever engineer through trial and error!!??" "Do you follow any aesthetic considerations?" Etc.
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/7/2008 11:45:17 AM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 939
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From: Inglewood, CA
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Quite an interesting post. As much as I wish such a scientific line of investigation were possible, the gods remain mute when asked questions. Or, at least, any answers received are either subjectively experienced or ambiguous.
"Do you ever make alterations -- Do you ever engineer through trial and error!!??"
(An earthquake in Turkey kills 11 people.)
"Was that a yes or a no?"
(A train derails in Sweden.)
"Um, can you do an earthquake for yes, and a tornado for no?"
(The investigator's mother falls and breaks her arm.)
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/7/2008 12:06:19 PM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 538
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From: North Carolina!
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quote:
(The investigator's mother falls and breaks her arm.)
lol
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 6:05:43 PM
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SavedToo
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quote:
However, I am open to hear other people's perspectives. Are there other methods (any scientific ones, for instance) for asking questions of the conscious creator?
[/qutoe]
There sure is. Prayer. If you pray for something to happen and it does, then you have connected with God. But you might be tempted to say, how do you not know if it was a coincidence or not? This would depend on probability. If you pray for things often enough that are statically outside the possibility of a mere coincidence, you could safely conclude your connection was valid.
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 6:38:52 PM
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Jhud
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Quite an interesting post. As much as I wish such a scientific line of investigation were possible, the gods remain mute when asked questions. Or, at least, any answers received are either subjectively experienced or ambiguous.
"Do you ever make alterations -- Do you ever engineer through trial and error!!??"
(An earthquake in Turkey kills 11 people.)
"Was that a yes or a no?"
(A train derails in Sweden.)
"Um, can you do an earthquake for yes, and a tornado for no?"
(The investigator's mother falls and breaks her arm.)
What, spending three thousand years writing a book isn't enough of an answer?
God is certainly not mute, but many are deaf (and blind).
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 7:26:15 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 939
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
What, spending three thousand years writing a book isn't enough of an answer?
Given the sales figures, he probably doesn't need the royalties, but he should go on a book tour. If he showed up at my local indy bookstore, or even a big box bookstore, I'd be sure to get my copy signed and ask a few questions. But he seems to be more the JD Salinger type -- nobody's seen him lately.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 7:48:02 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Given the sales figures, he probably doesn't need the royalties, but he should go on a book tour. If he showed up at my local indy bookstore, or even a big box bookstore, I'd be sure to get my copy signed and ask a few questions. But he seems to be more the JD Salinger type -- nobody's seen him lately.
We talk everyday.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 8:14:36 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 939
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
We talk everyday.
Would you mind asking him what my mom's maiden name is?
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 8:25:00 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
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quote:
Would you mind asking him what my mom's maiden name is?
Can't you just ask your mom?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 8:31:35 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 939
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From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Would you mind asking him what my mom's maiden name is?
Can't you just ask your mom?
I know what it is. I just want to establish the bona fides of your conversational partner. Maybe he's not who you think he is. Or maybe he doesn't have the properties you ascribe to him.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 9:17:58 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I know what it is. I just want to establish the bona fides of your conversational partner. Maybe he's not who you think he is. Or maybe he doesn't have the properties you ascribe to him.
Or maybe He doesn't do parlor tricks. What would your response be if I gave you your mother's name?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 10:59:11 PM
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Method
Posts: 1162
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Or maybe He doesn't do parlor tricks.
Neither does Paul Bunyan, and for the same reasons.
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 11:02:17 PM
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Method
Posts: 1162
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
If a metal man of apparent intelligence dropped out of the sky, we would certainly be interested in questions of its origins. However, we might also be interested in the thing's own intelligence and the question of whether it is conscious or simply appears so. What could a scientist do? To be fair, a scientist would have to use the same criteria as that for humans -- begin with a voluntary interview. Neural correlation may not be applicable, and so we might choose to relax this criteria -- however, I must note that such measures are that by which medical scientists judge a person effectively alive or dead, as we all know.
This has been fodder in sci-fi for quite a while. One of the more popular tests is the Turing Test where the interviewer must judge whether or not they are conversing with another human. The question is whether or not someone can produce a computer/program that is capable of passing the Turing Test but is not sentient. This has intrigued philosophers for quite some time. Is sentience a prerequisite for being able to converse as a human? We may have that answer sometime during our lifetimes, who knows.
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 11:06:37 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Neither does Paul Bunyan, and for the same reasons.
Neither does the President, but that tells us nothing about his existence.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 11:12:25 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Neither does the President, but that tells us nothing about his existence.
So God does press conferences?
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 11:13:34 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
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quote:
So God does press conferences?
He writes His own releases.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 11:15:28 PM
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Method
Posts: 1162
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
He writes His own releases.
Through his PR firm, I am sure. And I wasn't aware that Paul the Apostle was God. New one for me.
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 11:19:14 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Through his PR firm, I am sure. And I wasn't aware that Paul the Apostle was God. New one for me.
Paul (among many others) was just a vehicle.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 11:24:30 PM
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Method
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Paul (among many others) was just a vehicle.
So say the supposed vehicles.
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 11:33:01 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
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So say the supposed vehicles.
Well, he wasn't alone, nor did he expect those around him to accept what he said on face value.
Nor is what he said the only reason to accept what he said as true. He certainly got nothing from making such a claim.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 11:36:44 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 939
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
What would your response be if I gave you your mother's name?
Only one way to find out.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 11:43:30 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
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quote:
Only one way to find out.
Oh, believe me, I would love nothing more than for God to jump up and say, "Boo!" everytime an atheist voices doubts about His existence, but even if He wrote out that name on the desk in front of me I don't know that I would trust myself enough to deliver it.
I have my suspicions about why God remains epistemically distant from unbelieving humanity, but it really isn't my place to state such things.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 11:44:10 PM
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Method
Posts: 1162
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, he wasn't alone, nor did he expect those around him to accept what he said on face value.
Nor is what he said the only reason to accept what he said as true. He certainly got nothing from making such a claim.
Yes, a lot of human writers but nothing from God himself.
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/8/2008 11:50:49 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
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quote:
Yes, a lot of human writers but nothing from God himself.
Well, no, it's all from 'God Himself' - as much as what I am writing now is from me, even though I am not there scribbling on your screen. God systematically and consistently communicated truth through written Scripture over a period of millennia through an incredibly diverse group of people - and He punctuated that writing with certain events, the most dramatic of course being the resurrection of Christ.
And He still speaks through those words, Himself, and He still works in the lives of those who know Him.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: A Conscious Creator - 7/9/2008 12:00:57 AM
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Method
Posts: 1162
Joined: 9/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Yes, a lot of human writers but nothing from God himself.
Well, no, it's all from 'God Himself' -
So say the human writers.
quote:
And He still speaks through those words, Himself,
Right, and my dead great grandmother still talks through her letters she left behind in a loud voice that reverberates through the room. Give me a break. Double speak will not get you anywhere. The Bible was written by humans just like every other religious text that you reject.
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