Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus never sinned.
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Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus never s... - 8/29/2008 8:22:13 PM
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hellochurch
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I have come across a group locally who I thought were christian, until I heard that their leader taught that Jesus sinned. (THIS IS AN EDIT, HERE EVERYTHING IN CAPS BY ME, HELLOCHURCH, I DID NOT MEAN EXACTLY THAT I THOUGHT THEY WERE CHRISTIAN AND NOW REALIZE THEY ARENT, I DONT WANT TO JUDGE THIS/THEM IN THIS WAY. I BELIEVE THIS TEACHING IS IN ERROR, HOWEVER, I HAVE NOT THOROUGHLY STUDIED EVERYTHING NECESSARY TO EVEN COME TO A CONCLUSION HERE. I BELIEVE JESUS NEVER SINNED.)
Apparently there are groups who call themselves christian who believe this because of how they interpret some scripture texts, - some larger well known groups or sects have this in their written and published materials.
Anyone know which groups, and could we list all the texts that prove this to be error.
Apparently one of the texts that the local group believe , is the one about Jesus as high priest offering up sacrifice, but it follows the levitical high priests job description and because of this, the english word order is being misunderstood by them to say that Jesus also offered up his sacrifice first for his own sins and then for the sins of the people, like the other high priests did, that are described in the first part of that reference. I think its from hebrews.
There are more similar texts that sound a bit ambiguous in a sim. way that they are adamant about them meaning that Jesus sinned. ie. He learned obedience from the things that he suffered, they think means that his suffering was punishment from his Father for sinning.
please comment, thank you.
< Message edited by hellochurch -- 8/30/2008 11:04:58 AM >
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/29/2008 8:27:05 PM
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rcjames
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Well, I do not know about all Scriptures that speak to Christ not sinning, but I will give this one that is sufficient for me;
(Heb 4:15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Now it sounds to me like you have been talking to some idiots that may think that temptation is sin; but the above verse also knocks that falacy down.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/29/2008 8:46:07 PM
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hellochurch
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thank you RC, - these people believe this truly, and since discovering this I read about other larger groups with a name, that is known, who adhere to this belief as well.
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/29/2008 9:09:06 PM
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Dancre
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Wow!! i've never heard of such a thing. Be careful, Hello. I'm sure they'll have all the 'scripture' to support this nonsense.
kim
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/29/2008 9:33:59 PM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
I have come across a group locally who I thought were christian, until I heard that their leader taught that Jesus sinned.
Apparently there are groups who call themselves christian who believe this because of how they interpret some scripture texts, - some larger well known groups or sects have this in their written and published materials.
Wow, you found yourself what looks like a cult. Cults are groups that don't believe Jesus is God, or don't believe that He was sinless and don't believe that His death and resurrection paid for sin. Another trait could be that they have other books besides the Bible that they say are inspired of God and equal to the Bible.
I'm glad you are on to this error about Jesus' sinlessness. He was sinless; RCJames nailed it. A good way to find out stuff in the Bible is to go to www.biblegateway.com and look things up. I use it all the time.
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Notice the contrast here between our sin and Jesus' righteousness.
Acts 4:27
“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
Acts 4:30
by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
Peter spoke these words under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (v. 8). A person can't be called holy by God when they are sinners.
Keep on keeping on, and good for you for standing up for the truth. God bless you, Hellochurch!
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/29/2008 9:36:34 PM
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sparkleingsnow
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1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
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Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/29/2008 9:39:12 PM
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Liveloved
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I was going to name the Hebrews verse RC gave. In the NASB it says, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin." Seems to make it very clear that Jesus was without sin.
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/29/2008 10:25:56 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
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II Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/29/2008 10:35:10 PM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: x_SoliDeoGloria_x
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Whoo-woo! <high fives x_SoliDeoGloria_x>
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/29/2008 11:33:44 PM
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TheBibleTRUTH
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
I have come across a group locally who I thought were christian, until I heard that their leader taught that Jesus sinned.
Apparently there are groups who call themselves christian who believe this because of how they interpret some scripture texts, - some larger well known groups or sects have this in their written and published materials.
Wow, you found yourself what looks like a cult. Cults are groups that don't believe Jesus is God, or don't believe that He was sinless and don't believe that His death and resurrection paid for sin. Another trait could be that they have other books besides the Bible that they say are inspired of God and equal to the Bible.
I'm glad you are on to this error about Jesus' sinlessness. He was sinless; RCJames nailed it. A good way to find out stuff in the Bible is to go to www.biblegateway.com and look things up. I use it all the time.
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Notice the contrast here between our sin and Jesus' righteousness.
Acts 4:27
“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
Acts 4:30
by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
Peter spoke these words under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (v. 8). A person can't be called holy by God when they are sinners.
Keep on keeping on, and good for you for standing up for the truth. God bless you, Hellochurch!
*** This is OFF topic... please excuse me! ***
- Actually, that is not true. The word for "saint" means Holy. We are called saints many times in the bible. Also we have the righteousness of God.
Romans 3:22
22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 10:3
3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21
21) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Philippians 3:9
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
We were made as righteous as God by God and the works of Jesus Christ. Also the Bible says that we are holy:
Ephesians 4:24
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Our new man is holy.
Ephesians 1:4
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
We were made holy and without blame by God.
---------------
So you can see that we have the righteousness of God and are holy and without blame along with Christ.
---------------
Anyway, based on what was said already, it's pretty obvious that Christ didn't sin.
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/30/2008 5:28:33 AM
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LastofAll
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“Who did no sin..”
(I Peter.2:22)
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/30/2008 8:09:30 AM
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hellochurch
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Thank you all, for what you've written.
"He who knew no sin, was made to be sin, for us..."
. . .this group says that this scripture means, (quoting them) - that Jesus, before he came to earth, in heaven with the Father, knew no sin, but when he was born into the earth, he took on 'us' as in the same nature we have, after Adam/Evie's blooper, the fallen nature., the sinful nature.
There is an age old theological argument about whether JEsus had the human nature that we all got, after the fall, or the same nature as Adam1, before the fall, ie. which would be without any sin, or bent to sin.
the fall changed all of our natures into sinful natures somehow, I am not sure all the theology behind this, but there is plenty,
I personally think Jesus, our Adam2, had the same nature as Adam1 before the fall.
Just as an extra, I discovered in research that Adam in the original takes into account, male and female adam, adam meaning kind of 'humankind'
anyhow, this group goes on to say that Jesus 'learned obedience by what he suffered' etc. and that "he was made perfect" through what he suffered, meaning
Their theology, although they refuse to write it down so any others can examine it, came out in conversations I had with a couple of them, that
-they too learn obedience and are perfected through suffering over sins they committ, and being remorseful when the Holy Spirit shows them their errors, so they then askHim to take that out of them, their desire for that particular sin, etc. This is what repenting is to them.
Their teacher, while teaching this, also teaches revelation of the scripture, which I find hard to understand, how they can have truth and deep truth that comes from revelation, and at the same time include teaching like this that I think is off.
I believe we are going to have to be so understanding of the Word of God, as time continues to avoid pitfalls and traps like this, - the enemy knows the Word of God, and has taken captive many large groups of people, with errors,
ie I believe the larger group name of the people that hold to a similar belief in this area is called Christadelphian, although I would have to look it up again to be sure, please forgive me is this is not so, and if I have used the wrong name, or if I am not supposed to use names, like this, on this board, I am not sure.
What will become of people who are trapped into error beliefs. Some of the people in this group are so precious, - how I handle it, rightly or wrongly is I have stopped talking with them,
after I discovered what they are teaching, and have separated myself form them, but this doesnt feel exactly right either, as I believe they know Jesus personally, at the same time that this teaching is going on there.
? I feel love toward them when I see them and I have to squish this, and stay separated, which is what the bible tells me I am supposed to do I believe (marking those in disobedience and keeping a separation if they refuse to obey the Word)
- I used to have chats with some of the ladies whenever I would meet them out in the community etc.
I have told them I believe they are in error and it may have grave consequences -
How could Jesus have sin, and then be our sinless sacrifice? /they say he went through a repentance of all sin process, that he did not committ any grave sins but 'erred' and his Father corrected him.
They believe he was born into our fallen human nature. I cannot see how this could be, Jesus being God and being Holy.
I can see how he could be Adam2, born to Mary the female, who through sins were not transmitted, as the bible says that sins were passed down through the fathers, she was not sinless, i don't believe, but Jesus's Daddy was definitely sinless.
I believe the first Adam had no sin nature and the fall produced this sin nature whatever it is, our lower creature or beast.
If Jesus had a 'beast' then how could he qualify for the sacrifice for us all?
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/30/2008 9:11:13 AM
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hellochurch
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I think using this 'separation from scripture re disobedience' is not being rightly applied by me, though, I am just uncomfortable with them after hearing what they teach in this regard and it bothers me
they may have more things that they teach that I would feel are off, and
it is not possible to find out what they teach entirely because they have nothing written down anywhere about what their beliefs are.
The only way is to talk to them, or listen to their teacher talk and I dont want to do that
I don't exactly know how to proceed with them biblically, so I have turned them over to the Lord, and I keep separate from them.
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/30/2008 9:22:01 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
I think using this 'separation from scripture re disobedience' is not being rightly applied by me, though, I am just uncomfortable with them after hearing what they teach in this regard and it bothers me
they may have more things that they teach that I would feel are off, and
it is not possible to find out what they teach entirely because they have nothing written down anywhere about what their beliefs are.
The only way is to talk to them, or listen to their teacher talk and I dont want to do that
I don't exactly know how to proceed with them biblically, so I have turned them over to the Lord, and I keep separate from them.
HERE is a link to the home page of the group you are referring to.
This is from their "Beliefs" page;
quote:
The Christadelphians believe that Jesus the Christ is the son of God, who came to fulfill the Old Testament promises and covenants of God with mankind, primarily the covenants with Eve, Abraham and David.
We believe that Jesus is a man, who was tried and tempted as we are, yet who resisted sin even till death. Three days later, the only true God, the Father raised him to eternal life, after which Christ ascended to his Father's side to await the appointed time of his return
So what you are being told they believe and what they state on the website they believe seem to be two different things.
I would suggest that concerning these folks you are talking to that you "Run Forrest Run".
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/30/2008 10:19:03 AM
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hellochurch
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thank you RC, - I wasn't clear in what I wrote,
the local group are not claiming they are christadelphians, they don't have a name, as such, but chrdelph.'s are another group I found out about who apparently had sim. belief,
I dont want to be the judge, and I dont want to find out more to judge accurately and wisely either, I prefer not to judge, and just to not have to
come to a conclusion, ie. my separation that I made was mostly for my comfort at not knowing what to do with them re this belief, and I dont know them personally well enough to know if they have real genuine new births or not,
then I already judged by saying they might not be christian,
I think they have received their new births, from what one lady said,
If people are off in theology, will God reject them for it? I guess it depends on how off they are,..what they are claiming is truth, if they are honestly misunderstanding or deliberately maligning the Word. I believe the WORD is God, and is Holy, this is not from any teaching outside of my own personal relationship with God and what He revealed to me in scripture.
I know by experience that God is very loving and is not willing for any one to perish, and that He is not trying to keep peple out of heaven, He is trying to get them into heaven.
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/30/2008 10:20:00 AM
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deermousie
Posts: 1849
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheBibleTRUTH
*** This is OFF topic... please excuse me! ***
- Actually, that is not true. The word for "saint" means Holy. We are called saints many times in the bible. Also we have the righteousness of God.
Holy also means "set apart ones" or "separated." It shows that God has a specific purpose or status for us, when He calls us saints - we are holy by decree, not nature or action, and are separated from unbelievers by God's calling. It also means that God is absolutely holy by nature.
Neither you nor I have to be convinced that we are sinners (just ask our parents or our mates!  ). Our standing before God is because we are clothed in Christ's righteousness, which God decreed legally, not experientially. It's like a judge banging his gavel and proclaiming, "Not guilty" even though we did sin and are guilty. God says He has given us the standing of Christ - "not guilty." It's the same deal that in Eph. 2 that says we are seated in heavenly places. Our bodies and souls are on earth, but legally, we are seated with Christ in heaven. There's more status imagery in us being seated with Christ as it infers an equality and status.
Since Christ is God, then by transitive property, Christ is sinless because God is sinless. It's a syllogism: A=B, B=C, therefore A=C.
Christ is God (John 10:30)
God is sinless (James 1:13)
Therefore Christ is sinless. (Heb. 4:15)
Edited because I can't spell...
< Message edited by deermousie -- 8/30/2008 10:26:42 AM >
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/30/2008 10:55:43 AM
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TheBibleTRUTH
Posts: 94
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheBibleTRUTH
*** This is OFF topic... please excuse me! ***
- Actually, that is not true. The word for "saint" means Holy. We are called saints many times in the bible. Also we have the righteousness of God.
Holy also means "set apart ones" or "separated." It shows that God has a specific purpose or status for us, when He calls us saints - we are holy by decree, not nature or action, and are separated from unbelievers by God's calling. It also means that God is absolutely holy by nature.
Neither you nor I have to be convinced that we are sinners (just ask our parents or our mates! ). Our standing before God is because we are clothed in Christ's righteousness, which God decreed legally, not experientially. It's like a judge banging his gavel and proclaiming, "Not guilty" even though we did sin and are guilty. God says He has given us the standing of Christ - "not guilty." It's the same deal that in Eph. 2 that says we are seated in heavenly places. Our bodies and souls are on earth, but legally, we are seated with Christ in heaven. There's more status imagery in us being seated with Christ as it infers an equality and status.
Since Christ is God, then by transitive property, Christ is sinless because God is sinless. It's a syllogism: A=B, B=C, therefore A=C.
Christ is God (John 10:30)
God is sinless (James 1:13)
Therefore Christ is sinless. (Heb. 4:15)
Edited because I can't spell...
Sorry, the way you wrote it confused me. It seemed like you were saying we weren't righteous or holy at all... which is why I made the post ><.
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/30/2008 10:58:09 AM
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TheBibleTRUTH
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This scripture is a little harder to pick out the same meaning, but it does mean that he was sinless.
Ephesians 4:13
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
He was a perfect man, therefore, sinless!
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RE: Calling for all scripture supporting that Jesus nev... - 8/30/2008 11:01:10 AM
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hellochurch
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Thank you TheBibleTruth!
The Bible is sooo deep - that is because it says of itself, that it Is God.
It takes keeness, study, and the direction of the Holy Spirit to rightly divide the Word of God.
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