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Christ's Sacrifice - 10/1/2008 2:04:40 PM
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abraxas
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Okay this is a question that pops into my head from time to time and burns for a while, and I hope it doesn't offend greatly but it's a sincere question for me and now I'm going to ask. I'll try to lay out my question here once and for all so I can lurkingly and thoughtfully read any responses anyone might have.
What exactly was it that God/Christ sacrificed? God gave his only begotten son, but he must have known that 32 years later it would all be back to how it was? Christ offered himself, but he was God too so he also would have known that he would be back into full divinity forever when it was over. What's 32 years to a mind that comprehends eternity? What was the sacrifice?
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/1/2008 2:13:24 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
What was the sacrifice?
God suffered death on the cross. Death is the wrath of God. The fullness of the cup of God's wrath was poured out onto God, and was satisfied because Christ was without sin. That is what God suffered on the cross, that was the sacrifice.
The years that Jesus Christ was human, God incarnate, were not the sacrifice. They were the preparation so that the sacrifice would satisfy God's wrath towards humanity.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/1/2008 2:20:24 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
What exactly was it that God/Christ sacrificed? [/quot
My limited understanding is that Christ had the authority to act on our behalf and that God's standard of justice is that the wages of sin is death.
So he paid the price of suffering and death but he also fullfilled the requirements of the law by being sinless and he had perfect faith. The bible says he suffered indescribedly and despite knowing he would be resurrected he still sweated drops of blood.
He also was separated from his Father which apparently caused him tremendous emotional and spiritual pain, something we may be unable to understand.
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/1/2008 7:46:20 PM
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mvic
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Let's see if I can outline this in easy steps.
God created the universe and all that's in it. Including man.
Man sinned and as a result alienated (separated, distanced) himself from God.
God spoke to man through the prophets in the Old Testament and gave man guidance, instructions, commandments to turn away from sin.
Eventually, God decided to come down to earth as a human (Jesus) to speak to us face to face. To listen to us. To forgive sins. To heal the sick and perform many miracles. The greatest miracle being His resurrection from the dead.
So basically, by sending Jesus to earth, God built a bridge to close the gap which alienated us from Him. To defeat evil (sin) once and for all and to allow us to get back in a personal relationship with Him. Jesus said "I am the way ... no one goes to God but through me".
So to answer your question: what did God sacrifice? He sacrificed Jesus in order to build that bridge between Him and us.
So things aren't exactly back to what they were 32 years later. True, Jesus rose from the dead and went to Heaven. But the main difference is that BEFORE Jesus there was no bridge between God and us.
Now there is.
Sadly, many still do not want to make use of the bridge (Jesus) to get closer to God.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/2/2008 3:45:37 AM
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abraxas
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Okay, but what was sacrificed? What did he give up?
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/2/2008 5:34:51 AM
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mvic
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He (Jesus) sacrificed His life. Having become a human, He was subject to every human emotion we enjoy and suffer. He therefore knew pain both emotional and physical.
Imagine therefore the pain He must have endured when He was tortured and put to death.
He said to God: Don't punish them for their sins, let me take on this punishment on their behalf.
That's the sacrifice.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/2/2008 9:58:15 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Okay, but what was sacrificed? What did he give up?
He gave up His glory in Heaven. He gave up His right to be Who He is. He gave up divinity for mere humanity. He then gave up His humanity...and God the Father then gave Him up.
He did this for us.
We cannot fully comprehend the ramifications of all that Christ gave up...all that He risked, by stripping Himself of His divine right, and being made a mere man; and then living a life that qualified Him to die the death He died. Or why, being raised back to life eternal, He would then offer that very life to those who had killed Him. We are assured that it was necessary, it was painful, it was costly and it was perfect. There was no other way to redeem and restore life to fallen man.
This is why the full humanity of Christ is not up for debate. He was fully man. He was never less than God, but, He never functioned as anything more than man, at all times and in all ways. He was tempted in all ways as us. Which means that God the Father placed the balance of eternity, in the man Jesus Christ's, hands. Where the first Adam failed, the last Adam succeeded.
Jesus Christ gave up everything, and He did so for us. And He now offers us Himself, and everything He gained for us, in exchange for ourselves, which is nothing. Everything for nothing. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
Peace
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/2/2008 10:46:11 AM
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SophiesLadder
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Christ sacrificed his entire life.
He sacrificed his physical life, his body, which died.
He sacrificed his spiritual life, his spirit, his eternal life.
He died both a physical and spiritual death.
Eternal life is to know the Father.
Spiritual death is to suffer estrangement from God.
The communion and fellowship was broken between the Father and the Son. He gave up the greatest thing He had, fellowship with the Father, that He had enjoyed eternally in the Godhead.
God was separated from Himself.
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/3/2008 1:56:26 AM
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abraxas
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Thanks for the replies. I guess I'm still caught on the idea that Christ was immortal and eternal. What is "death" to an immortal being? What are 33 years of mortal life to an eternal being? Spiritual death may have been very difficult (not sure I fully understand what that is), but it was also temporary right? Did he know it would be temporary?
Something Steve wrote I found helpful (and others have touched on it)--that perhaps there is something in the suffering he endured, bleeding from the pores, etc. Did he suffer "eternal punishment"?
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/3/2008 8:27:18 AM
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timf
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Okay, but what was sacrificed? What did he give up?
Philippians 2:5-8
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
1. Christ set aside His glory and honor to be humbled by being born into His own creation.
2. Christ was "made sin" (who knew no sin) for us.
We might be able to try to imagine the loss of glory and the humiliation of coming into this world. However, there is no way we can begin to imagine what the separation from the Father was like for Jesus. We do get a description that Jesus knew what was being asked.
Matthew 26:38-39
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Are you saying that it wouldn't be much of a sacrifice unless it was permanent such as the loss of a limb or some eternal disadvantage?
I would say the we don't understand the totality of the price Jesus paid to be able to say that it doesn't seem sufficient to accomplish what it did.
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Sin came into the world through faithlessness. The price was paid for the sin of the world through faithfulness. If we consider the price of sin to be measured in effort or the eternal toll it took on someone, we start to think of sin as something that can be paid for or at least ameliorated by works.
Our salvation comes from a new birth (being joined to the life) of one who was faithful. The idea that sin has to be worked off or paid for in equivalency has more in common with the idea of karma or purgatory.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/3/2008 8:42:47 AM
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SophiesLadder
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"Something Steve wrote I found helpful (and others have touched on it)--that perhaps there is something in the suffering he endured, bleeding from the pores, etc. Did he suffer "eternal punishment"?"
Yes! When Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden, they eventually suffered physical death, but immediately suffered being cast out from the presence of God.
The wages of sin is to be cast into the outer darkness. The wages of sin is death, not just physical death, but spiritual death. Christ paid the price for our sins. He has redeemed us.
As for this being "temporary", don't think duration, think intensity or magnitude. Think of being cut off from the very source of life, the very source of being. Think of being thrown into darkness after dwelling in God's glorious light. Think of the vast difference between those things - it's of an infinite magnitude. Christ knows what hell is like. He's been there, for us.
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/3/2008 8:58:37 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Thanks for the replies. I guess I'm still caught on the idea that Christ was immortal and eternal. What is "death" to an immortal being? What are 33 years of mortal life to an eternal being? Spiritual death may have been very difficult (not sure I fully understand what that is), but it was also temporary right? Did he know it would be temporary?
Yes, Christ is immortal and eternal, but by taking upon Himself humanity, He subjected Himself to mortality --- death. His sacrifice also included the giving up of all His Divine privileges and the daily humiliation of being a Man and being opposed by sinners daily. Since His sufferings and death (His sacrifice) was for all humanity, and "all our sins were laid on Him", the magnitude of Christ's sufferings far outweighs the duration of His being on the Cross.
Therefore "temporary" is not a word that can be rightly applied to Christ's suffering and death. "He tasted death for every man" which includes both physical and spiritual death. Death is separation, and when Christ was "temporariliy" separated from the Father, the extreme intensity of that experience cannot be described by those who have no idea of what actually transpired.
At the same time Christ knew that He would not only die but rise again. Nonetheless, the prospect of His sufferings and death was so overwhelming to Him as a Man, that He even approached the Father in Gethsemane to ask if it were possible that He might avoid His ordeal.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/3/2008 9:09:25 AM
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mvic
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Abraxas,
You say you're "still caught on the idea that Christ was immortal and eternal. What is "death" to an immortal being?"
Christ on earth was NOT immortal. He was a human like you and me. He needed to eat, drink, sleep and function like us. He felt pain like us. And did die like we will.
It was essential as part of God's plan that Jesus came to earth as a human. If He came as an almighty astronaut, a spirit, a powerful beam of light, a loud voice, a burning bush, or whatever else some people might imagine; He would not have been able to achieve His main purpose of His mission.
That is to be one of us. To be born like us, yet a Virgin Birth by the Holy Spirit. To live amongst us as a human.
Having become human, albeit with supernatural powers to heal and raise people from the dead, His mission was to tell us who He is and what we should do to redeem ourselves and come to God. We should accept the existance of God, accept that He (Jesus) is His son, and to repent from our sins.
Part of this mission was His death. A real death like the one you and I will experience. Although His was much more painful because of what He endured for us. It was a real death nonetheless.
Not an "immortal being" pretending to be dead.
Having died; God in His power rose Him from the dead.
This is one of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity. Take that away, and the rest crumbles into nothing.
I hope this helps clarify things a little.
You're asking good questions which provide an opportunity for clarification. Thanx.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/3/2008 11:21:32 AM
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abraxas
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A lot to read here, thanks! I may not have been clear about one thing--I understand Jesus experienced mortality. Did he know before he came down how things would play out? Was there a chance things could have turned out badly for Christ? Did he know as a mortal that he would come back to life, or did he have faith that he would?
Thanks again, will read it all soon. Getting late here now, g'night!
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/3/2008 12:18:08 PM
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SophiesLadder
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Right quick, I will add:
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. The triune God has known the crucifixion in the Godhead, since He is Love and the crucifixion and spiritual death are the ultimate fulfillment of that Love.
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/3/2008 1:39:11 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Okay this is a question that pops into my head from time to time and burns for a while, and I hope it doesn't offend greatly but it's a sincere question for me and now I'm going to ask. I'll try to lay out my question here once and for all so I can lurkingly and thoughtfully read any responses anyone might have.
What exactly was it that God/Christ sacrificed? God gave his only begotten son, but he must have known that 32 years later it would all be back to how it was? Christ offered himself, but he was God too so he also would have known that he would be back into full divinity forever when it was over. What's 32 years to a mind that comprehends eternity? What was the sacrifice?
When Christ took on our sins He was seperated from His father. He'd never known for one minute of His life what it was like to be seperated from His father that was within Him. He sacrificed that connection and took on the full weight of our sins. He felt the uncleanliness of sin and wickedness. He allowed vileness to permeate and violate His being so that we might have the ability to accept the Holy Spirit and shed the power sin has over our lives by believing in Him.
When His body died, He went into that eternally damned place. Of course the Father raised Him back up but he was there in a place that time doesn't exist the way we understand it. Think how terrible that must have been.
That's my opinion of course, YMMV.
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Good – God = 0
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/3/2008 5:17:11 PM
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mvic
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"Did He (Jesus) know before He came down how things would play out?"
Yes He did. He knew also as a human, from the age of 12 when He was teaching in the temple, how He would suffer and die. Just imagine that for a moment.
Imagine you knew right now what would happen to you in future. Let's say (God forbid) that there are some very bad things which will happen to you in future. And you can't avoid them. That is your destiny and you know it. How do you think this will affect you? Could you live with this knowledge on your mind? I know I probably couldn't.
Yet Jesus knew throughout most of His life what would happen to Him. He had to live with this foreknowledge which must have tortured Him every day of His life.
And He went through with it. At one stage on the Mount of Olives, just before His arrest, He did ask God to change His future. Then He said: "Not my will but yours".
"Was there a chance things could have turned out badly for Christ?"
I doubt it. God's plan was that Jesus would die and be risen again. Jesus knew this. He said to Pilate: "My kingdom is not of this world." He knew that being the Son of God, His Father would resurrect Him. He knew it when He said "Destroy this temple (meaning Him) and I (God) will raise it in three days."
"Did He (Jesus) know as a mortal that He would come back to life, or did He have faith that He would?"
Both. He knew and He did have Faith in His Father.
When He asked His Father to change things (His prayer in the Mount of Olives) and when He cried on the Cross "Why have you abandonned me" - that was His human nature speaking. Being human He had the same doubts and fears that we would have; and like us He would have wished things to be different.
It is difficult for us, almost impossible, to understand this "double nature", human and God at the same time, that Jesus was when on earth.
Perhaps we're not meant to fully understand. Perhaps we are just meant to believe. And that's what Faith is. Believing without understanding.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/4/2008 11:19:47 PM
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bob97
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abraxas...
If you had children who hated and ignored you, would you present yourself to humiliation, pain and death (which you had never known) for the sake of those children?
Would you separate yourself from the only thing that you have ever known…righteousness and truth and expose yourself to unrighteousness and total despair…something which you hate for the sake of those who hate you?
Would you take the sins of the world upon your shoulders for the sake of those who abhor you?
God Himself suffered all of these things for the sake of mankind, for a people who deserve nothing and the majority of those people today scorn God for His actions on our behalf.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/5/2008 1:26:03 AM
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abraxas
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Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I can see how the separation and whatever Christ experienced spiritually could have levels that we might not comprehend, but could explain the depth of the sacrifice. Perhaps an eternity packed into the three days or something.
Bob, that's a tough analogy to really get my head around but I'll just say I would do it if it were really the way to save my children. How about you?
When Christ said "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do" I think he domonstrated a deep understanding of the people who "hate or ignore" God.
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/5/2008 10:13:36 AM
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bob97
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quote:
Bob, that's a tough analogy to really get my head around but I'll just say I would do it if it were really the way to save my children. How about you?
Really a difficult question but think I would if placed in that position. This life is finite but the next is infinite...sometimes we forget that.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/11/2008 10:37:08 AM
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Mannamuncher
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Not the what...but The WHO !!!
The great sacrifice was Christ Himself
The great payment was His Life-Blood.
God was well-pleased with Jesus.
God loves Jesus in a way we cannot grasp,
and Jesus loves the Father the same way.
There is a mystery here we cannot know.
We cannot pretend to know what happened.
Jesus tasted death and died for us.
He had the power of an indestructible life.
We are united in His death and His resurrection.
He did what we couldn't do...He is the solution.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/11/2008 10:32:40 PM
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turtleman
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Jesus Became sin on the cross as scripture says He who knew no became sin for our sakes. Not only that but he endured every sicknes and disease on the cross for by his stripes we are healed. He willingly gave his life as sn eternal atonement for our sins so that we don't have to offer sacrifices to cover our sins Jesus blood washed them away. The greatest price he paid on the cross was to endure seperation from God this was something he had never experienced.
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just a few simple thoughts
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/13/2008 4:41:33 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turtleman
Not only that but he endured every sicknes and disease on the cross for by his stripes we are healed.
Please explain more what you mean by this. I just want to be certain I understand you.
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/17/2008 12:17:36 AM
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Fwanger
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Okay, but what was sacrificed? What did he give up?
Scripture states that "He who knew no sin became sin for us"
For the forgiveness of sins God demands perfection. No one that lived could reach the level of perfection that was required by the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. Therefore God had to come down become human, be tempted in every way that we were/are tempted, resist said temptation and offer Himself as the perfect sacrifice for the atonement of our sins.
Why do you think that Christ is called the Lamb of God? In Jewish tradition a pure white lamb is sacrificed on the altar for God called for a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus took the place as our pure blood sacrifice, so that we are forgiven now through His death for our sins. The sacrifice was accepted for Christ was risen from the dead three days later.
I hope this helps in someway.
_____________________________
Often have I said, I will never doubt the salvation of any one, so long as I can but know that Christ has accepted me. C.H. Spurgeon "The Way of Salvation"
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/19/2008 8:53:27 AM
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Theo-Minor
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I understand the question you are asking.
It wasn't that God knew or didn't know what was going to happen. The sacrifice, or death, was a necessity for mankind to be saved. The full concept is complicated, but very neatly orchestrated and executed, and falls to several individual points put together.
1) The law.
2) The oath.
3) God's oath.
4) Our failure.
5) The marriage.
6) The voiding of our oath.
1) The world once lived without the law. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes. But because of man's wickedness, God gave us the law, and through the law, sin became sin. As Paul said, where there is no law, there is no transgression. God had to create a system of accountability.
2) When the law was fully established, all the people were bound by oath to keep it. Life and death, blessing and cursings, were laid before them. Those who kept the law would be blessed and live. Those who did not keep the law would die and be cursed.
Even those who did not have the law were under the law, and were oath-bound in absentia to keep it insomuch as Paul states that they became a law unto themselves, so that all would become guilty before God.
3) At the conclusion of the reading of the law in Deuteronomy, establishing it as a covenant, and swearing to keep it, God swore by himself that if his hand takes hold on judgment, he would render vengeance to his enemies and reward those that hate him (meaning sinners if you read the Prophets).
4) No one kept the law. We all failed. Since we were bound by oath to keep it, and it was commanded that you shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain (meaning, you shall not swear falsely by his name), that he will not hold us guiltless who take his name in vain, we all became subject to the death and curses as written in the law.
Consequently, God also swore by his name. Bound by his own law, he couldn't back down from what he swore. He would have to punish us, and reward us for our sin.
5) When Christ came, he reconciled us to God through a marriage covenant. Israel, who had been formerly divorced by God, was brought back (or a remnant at least), and the Gentiles were grafted into the tree so that we too became Jews and part of the covenant.
6) However, we were still oath-bound to keep the law, so we were all guilty. In covenant with God or not, he still promised judgment on those who proved to be his enemies (law-breakers).
The only way for God to save us from ourselves was to relieve us of our oath-bound responsibility. As long as we were bound to keep the law, and do the law, in its entirety, he was oath-bound to render judgment on those who broke it, because he could not hold us guiltless after we swore on his name, and he could not hold himself guiltless if he did nothing after swearing on his own name. The guilty had to be punished.
If, however, we were not bound to our oath, he would no longer need to hold us guilty. Where there is no law, there is no transgression.
BUT, according to the law, if a woman makes an oath to bind her soul, and she becomes married ... if the husband hears of her oath and says nothing, she remains bound to it. If he later voids her oath after allowing it to be established, he has to bear her iniquity.
So what happened at the cross ... the sacrifice made ... was that we, the woman (the bride of Christ) had made an oath to keep the law. God wouldn't hold us guiltless after we swore on his name, and he swore on his own name to render judgment, so it had to be carried out. We married Christ, who later voided our oath. As a result, he had to bear our iniquity, which meant that he had to die according to the law, and he had to die in a manner similar to the cross so that he might also be cursed (he had to be hanged), since the law required death and curses for those who did not keep the law. With his death, the written ordinances that were against us were abolished, and we were put back into the pre-law state, where every man did what was right in his own eyes.
Our only commandment ... To love one another. All the law is fulfilled in that one commandment according to Paul, and it is the foundation of the law and the prophets according to Christ.
That's what the sacrifice was ... the bearing of guilt for an oath-voiding that allowed us to live, relieving God at the same time from his own oath to judge us.
There are a lot of scriptures being quoted and referenced in this explanation; more than I cared to type out. Anyone who wants scriptural substantiation for anything I said need only ask. I'll be happy to provide it.
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Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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