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Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 2:33:06 PM
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dedebeam
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My daughter is going to a secular college and is majoring in photograpy. She called me the first day( She just started this past week) and told me that she is required to take a drawing class and that in this drawing class she is required to draw people that will be coming in and posing nude. I am so sick about this and I don't really know what to do. My daughter is afraid to say anything because the professor has said they must come to class or fail. I know that it is a secular college but it still does not seem right that they make it a requirement to do such things. Does anyone have any advice for this problem?
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 2:36:27 PM
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MrFribbles
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Have her talk to the dean, or some other person in charge. If the college won't respect someone's religious beliefs, then 1, she needs to be at another school (I'm sure there are plenty of secular schools who wouldn't force someone into something like that), and 2, they'll potentially get into a lot of trouble. Unless it's a private college, in which case I suppose they can make whatever rules they want.
But I'd advise her to talk to the Prof. about it personally, and if that doesn't work, then talk with someone above the Prof.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 2:40:43 PM
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dedebeam
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Thank you for the advice. I will talk to my daughter and pass it on to her.
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 2:45:06 PM
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dianetavegia
Posts: 2036
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From: Southern Baptist, Non Calvinist, Pro Life Ga. girl
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I thought your post was going to question if a Christian should attend a secular college.
For the record, I attended Tift Baptist Women's College in the late 1960's early 1970's and saw/ heard more in the first months than I'd ever seen or heard in my life. Just because a college is 'christian' doesn't mean the student will be protected from homosexuality, promiscuity, vulgar language and more.
She should speak to the professor and ask if she can do another project or be seated so that she is not exposed to nudity.
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 2:59:14 PM
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manda59
Posts: 5989
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dedebeam
My daughter is going to a secular college and is majoring in photograpy. She called me the first day( She just started this past week) and told me that she is required to take a drawing class and that in this drawing class she is required to draw people that will be coming in and posing nude. I am so sick about this and I don't really know what to do. My daughter is afraid to say anything because the professor has said they must come to class or fail. I know that it is a secular college but it still does not seem right that they make it a requirement to do such things. Does anyone have any advice for this problem?
My advice would be to get over it. This is art, not porn. There is nothing disgusting about the naked human form, it's what we do with it that can be.
You'd probably find that the model may well have coverings over his/her bits anyway.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 3:26:45 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2904
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Manda's post and Mr. Fribbles and Diane's posts all make some sense. The school will likely make some concessions on one or two classes. If this is her chosen major, it may be hard to completely avoid the issue for 3 more years. At some point, she might have to choose between her major, her desired profession, and her feelings on the issue. It might be good to discuss the longer term impacts and strategies that could be employed to help her out. A discussion on a long term plan with her academic counselor wouldn't be a bad idea either. Before you spend a lot of money on non-transferable credits, I'd be sorely tempted to see if there's a long term viable academic path here or not.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 3:43:23 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4215
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: dedebeam
My daughter is going to a secular college and is majoring in photograpy. She called me the first day( She just started this past week) and told me that she is required to take a drawing class and that in this drawing class she is required to draw people that will be coming in and posing nude. I am so sick about this and I don't really know what to do. My daughter is afraid to say anything because the professor has said they must come to class or fail. I know that it is a secular college but it still does not seem right that they make it a requirement to do such things. Does anyone have any advice for this problem?
My advice would be to get over it. This is art, not porn. There is nothing disgusting about the naked human form, it's what we do with it that can be.
You'd probably find that the model may well have coverings over his/her bits anyway.
What Manda said. Completely normal and appropriate for art majors.
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Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 4:58:17 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3961
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dedebeam
My daughter is going to a secular college and is majoring in photograpy. She called me the first day( She just started this past week) and told me that she is required to take a drawing class and that in this drawing class she is required to draw people that will be coming in and posing nude. I am so sick about this and I don't really know what to do. My daughter is afraid to say anything because the professor has said they must come to class or fail. I know that it is a secular college but it still does not seem right that they make it a requirement to do such things. Does anyone have any advice for this problem?
Both of you take a chill. You cannot seriously study art or photography without dealing with nudity. If she is not mature enough to handle a class, then she should withdraw. A college class is a lot different than some porn thing. One of the problems we create in over-protecting our children is to make God's creation (the human body) into something bad.
OK, fire away, now.
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 5:38:18 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2478
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: dedebeam
My daughter is going to a secular college and is majoring in photograpy. She called me the first day( She just started this past week) and told me that she is required to take a drawing class and that in this drawing class she is required to draw people that will be coming in and posing nude. I am so sick about this and I don't really know what to do. My daughter is afraid to say anything because the professor has said they must come to class or fail. I know that it is a secular college but it still does not seem right that they make it a requirement to do such things. Does anyone have any advice for this problem?
My advice would be to get over it. This is art, not porn. There is nothing disgusting about the naked human form, it's what we do with it that can be.
You'd probably find that the model may well have coverings over his/her bits anyway.
I agree, but the way I see it...some will just naturally always connect "naked" with something sexual. I can't really say it's wrong to do...I think, but if you're like that, then maybe you should try to avoid it. I can appreciate a body...or parts without it being sexual. (I've had my fair share of naked people in class, but they're usually cadavers.) But if someone is of a different mindset, then either learn to not see it that way or accommodate your views.
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 6:00:45 PM
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Jhud
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While I tend to agree that studying human anatomy is a neccesary part of being a well trained artist, and part of that is seeing what people look like without clothes, I can't quite get past the fact that I would rather not have my wife or daughters be a nude model.
And that creates a cognitive dissonance I haven't yet been able to resolve.
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It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 8:28:14 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6087
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: dedebeam
My daughter is going to a secular college and is majoring in photograpy. She called me the first day( She just started this past week) and told me that she is required to take a drawing class and that in this drawing class she is required to draw people that will be coming in and posing nude. I am so sick about this and I don't really know what to do. My daughter is afraid to say anything because the professor has said they must come to class or fail. I know that it is a secular college but it still does not seem right that they make it a requirement to do such things. Does anyone have any advice for this problem?
My advice would be to get over it. This is art, not porn. There is nothing disgusting about the naked human form, it's what we do with it that can be.
You'd probably find that the model may well have coverings over his/her bits anyway.
Exactly - making an issue of it only continues to push the stereo-type that Christians are walking Ned Flanders.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 10:22:42 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Exactly - making an issue of it only continues to push the stereo-type that Christians are walking Ned Flanders.
So we shouldn't stand up for our convictions?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 10:40:25 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Exactly - making an issue of it only continues to push the stereo-type that Christians are walking Ned Flanders.
So we shouldn't stand up for our convictions?
A conviction that there is something wrong with the naked human form? That's not a conviction I or my husband have nor one that we'd want to pass on to my children.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 10:54:16 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
A conviction that there is something wrong with the naked human form? That's not a conviction I or my husband have nor one that we'd want to pass on to my children.
Romans 14, friend. Just because you don't share in a conviction doesn't make it any less valid for the person who holds it.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/28/2008 11:07:32 PM
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manda59
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From: Hampshire, UK
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Objecting to the naked human form in art is not a mainstream Christian conviction. In fact, with a renewed mind, one should be even more capable IMO of looking upon the human form just for its sheer beauty.
But if someone has that conviction, and is determined to keep it, then IMO they would be hard pushed to find any kind of art course that does not involve the human form at some stage.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/29/2008 12:26:16 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: dedebeam
My daughter is going to a secular college and is majoring in photograpy. She called me the first day( She just started this past week) and told me that she is required to take a drawing class and that in this drawing class she is required to draw people that will be coming in and posing nude. I am so sick about this and I don't really know what to do. My daughter is afraid to say anything because the professor has said they must come to class or fail. I know that it is a secular college but it still does not seem right that they make it a requirement to do such things. Does anyone have any advice for this problem?
My advice would be to get over it. This is art, not porn. There is nothing disgusting about the naked human form, it's what we do with it that can be.
You'd probably find that the model may well have coverings over his/her bits anyway.
That's what I would say as well.
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/29/2008 7:33:09 AM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Manda's post and Mr. Fribbles and Diane's posts all make some sense. The school will likely make some concessions on one or two classes. If this is her chosen major, it may be hard to completely avoid the issue for 3 more years. At some point, she might have to choose between her major, her desired profession, and her feelings on the issue. It might be good to discuss the longer term impacts and strategies that could be employed to help her out. A discussion on a long term plan with her academic counselor wouldn't be a bad idea either. Before you spend a lot of money on non-transferable credits, I'd be sorely tempted to see if there's a long term viable academic path here or not.
Perhaps this class could be an opportunity for her to learn to appreciate the beauty of the human body and not fear it as she has been.
FWIW, from what my artist friends have told me, it's actually more interesting to draw normal people w/ extra bumps and curves than it is to draw the "beautiful" types.
-Dan.
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/29/2008 8:04:17 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
So we shouldn't stand up for our convictions?
It's fine to stand up for your convictions, assuming that your convictions are in line with the objection.
Nudity is often and has been an intricate part of art for 1000's of years.
Just because one student has a problem with it, doesn't mean the school has to or will change the policies because someone has a conviction.
I would suggest to your daughter that she really consider whether this should be her major or not. If she can't handle the nudity, she should probably consider another, less intrusive major.
This class is not about her convictions, it's to teach her about a multitude of art forms, the human body being one aspect.
I must ask, what kind of teaching has your daughter received about the human body? Why is it taboo? What is so shameful about the body that it can be viewed as beautiful?
Purity doesn't mean naivety. Encourage her to learn, not be bound by your concerns and convictions.
< Message edited by deliveredarling -- 8/29/2008 8:10:45 AM >
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/29/2008 8:12:36 AM
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earthless
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Exactly - making an issue of it only continues to push the stereo-type that Christians are walking Ned Flanders.
So we shouldn't stand up for our convictions?
The question really is: What kind of a person has a conviction of simply a naked body being "evil" or "sinful"?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/29/2008 9:42:57 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2904
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Manda's post and Mr. Fribbles and Diane's posts all make some sense. The school will likely make some concessions on one or two classes. If this is her chosen major, it may be hard to completely avoid the issue for 3 more years. At some point, she might have to choose between her major, her desired profession, and her feelings on the issue. It might be good to discuss the longer term impacts and strategies that could be employed to help her out. A discussion on a long term plan with her academic counselor wouldn't be a bad idea either. Before you spend a lot of money on non-transferable credits, I'd be sorely tempted to see if there's a long term viable academic path here or not.
Perhaps this class could be an opportunity for her to learn to appreciate the beauty of the human body and not fear it as she has been.
FWIW, from what my artist friends have told me, it's actually more interesting to draw normal people w/ extra bumps and curves than it is to draw the "beautiful" types.
-Dan.
I agree completely. On the one hand, there's value in the "get over it" solution. Broadening one's perspectives to be able to recognize artistic expression via representations of the human form is a good thing. On the other, it's possible that she just doesn't feel like she can do that. In that case, a few alternative solutions that won't ask so much of her could be a valuable thing.
Sometimes we have to push people along in their faith and help them broaden their perspectives. Other times, pushing someone to go beyond what their conscience is telling them isn't healthy - even when we know that the place we're pushing them toward is an OK place for a Christian to be. I'm not very good at knowing the difference, so I think offering solutions on both sides of the fence might have some value here.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/29/2008 10:10:29 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3961
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
A conviction that there is something wrong with the naked human form? That's not a conviction I or my husband have nor one that we'd want to pass on to my children.
Romans 14, friend. Just because you don't share in a conviction doesn't make it any less valid for the person who holds it.
If she is that squeemish about the human body, she needs to find some course of study where she won't be tempted. She definitely needs to avoid healthcare, childcare, art, photography, cinema, etc. Math might be safe.
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/29/2008 10:38:39 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1623
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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I really can't believe what I'm hearing. Who are we to say someone's conviction isn't legitimate? Personally, I have no problem with viewing a human nude in an artistic way, but if someone else doesn't, if a fellow brother or sister in Christ believes that, for them, it would be sinful, how dare we tell them they're wrong? I ask that in seriousness. Is there a biblical teaching for such a view? If there is, I'd be very interested in hearing about it.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Christians going to secular college - 8/29/2008 10:50:26 AM
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manda59
Posts: 5989
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From: Hampshire, UK
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We don't actually know if the daughter has such a conviction - the mother does, but she is not the one taking the course. The daughter appears unsure, but that could be just because of her upbringing. I think mum should leave daughter to make up her own mind without trying to influence her or take over.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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