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Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 11:50:06 AM
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Sunnymom
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First, let me say that I believe that volunteerism is very important, especially as a Christian. I think community service is something that every family should find a way to do, although what Christians would define as community service might not be how the secular world defines it. Kids who go above and beyond to do unselfish acts of charity and generosity in their neighborhoods should be recognized and honored for their efforts.
Even so, I am dismayed at Obama's proposal of a federal mandate/program that will require kids from middle school through college to perform a certain number of hours of community service in order for their schools to receive federal funds (which IMO will lead to schools making it a graduation requirement).
Link to Joanna Jacob's blog about this topic.
Link to Obama's site.
I have questions about what would be considered legitimate community service- working for neighbors without pay? Church organized youth activities that involve an element of community service? Boy and Girl Scout programs? 4-H? Picking up trash on the highway?
I am concerned because 'mandated volunteerism' makes the backs of my knees itch. Because of the guarantees of the 13th Amendment. Because some of these kids aren't old enough to hold jobs, but yet might be required to work for the gov't. Because there are kids working their way through college that I think would be overly burdened to fulfill such a requirement. Because I believe it robs parents of the opportunity to teach their kids learn how to be cheerful givers because they want to, and not because they have to.
So what do you all think? How does this program strike you? Is there already something similar in your school?
< Message edited by Sunnymom -- 7/9/2008 12:13:22 PM >
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 12:17:22 PM
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Mrs.X
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I had to do 20 hours of community service to graduate high school. There was a program I joined where two days a week, I would get on a bus and go to an elementary school, and I had a little buddy who was ESL, and I helped him learn to read a little better. Some other kids volunteered at retirement homes. Some kids organized a "secret Santa" of sorts with the welfare department for poor people. A few kids volunteered at their churches and got the pastor to fill out paperwork for it as proof of the community service. Basically, you had to volunteer for an already made organization with a person in charge to sign the paperwork for you. But, it could be almost any kind.
My teacher told me I could use my service in Alateen (an AA group) because I was the secretary of my home group, and I did public speaking at conventions, but I was pretty sure Al-Anon wouldn't allow it because of the whole anonymous thing, I'd have to get my sponsor to sign her first and last name, (which would break her anonymity) and which group we were with (which would break the anonymity of the group). So, anonymous groups can't really be used for that kind of thing.
I think it's too much to ask of middle schoolers (because of their age) and too much to ask of college students (because college kids are too busy as it is). For high schoolers I think it's fine if the DISTRICT wants to make that a rule, but to make it a federally mandated rule, well they just need to butt out and leave it up to the district.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 12:32:43 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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Yeah, I had to do 50 hours of community service in order to graduate, I thought it was the easiest requirement. Pretty much everything counted, IIRC. I had stuff from church, 4-H, and school clubs. My brother had some hours that he worked for an elderly neighbor and those were also counted. Basically, the school wanted you to demonstrate that you were an active part of the community.
Personally, I don't think it's to much to ask of anyone. I was doing way more then 20 hours a year in middle school just through 4-H alone, and now I'm a mommy carrying a full college course load and would be fine doing 20-40 hours this year. The honest truth is that the majority of kids/teens/adults don't give a lick about their neighbors or their community.
It is probably one of the few federally mandated things I wouldn't balk at, and I tend to balk at 98% of them 
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 1:13:03 PM
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Sideways
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I have some mixed feelings about this. I think there are some things that certainly could go wrong, but overall, I think that it's a good idea. Just because we should volunteer, doesn't mean that the overwhelming majority of Americans do.
I think we should give more to our country then just taxes, and starting with the youth is a good idea. I'll hold final judgment until the idea is more fully fleshed out (like what would count as service, would it have to be a specific government program), but I see more pros then cons.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 1:47:08 PM
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rainbowtvp
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Did you read the link to Obama's site that you posted (or the speech)? There is no requirement proposed that college students would have to complete any community service. There would be a tax credit avaiable to college students who choose to do so.
As for middle/high schools... most high schools do require community service hours. I have not heard that Obama would make this a federal mandate, though he would promote it by offering benefits to the kids and schools who do participate.
I don't have a problem, though with public schools requiring community service. In most of the programs I have seen, kids are able to be very flexible with what they choose to do- whether it be part of an organization or something they do personally (though there has to be a plan).
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 2:19:41 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
But then we already have mandated 'charitable' giving via Medicaid and welfare. 
You forget that a lot of folks here get at least some portion of their food and/or heath care from government programs. It's easy to criticize when it's not your family that would be hurt if those programs just up and disappeared.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 2:37:49 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
So what do you all think?
I think it's one more social agenda pushed on an overtaxed system that was MEANT to teach academics.
And it really isn't any of the school's business how my child spends non-school hours.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 3:32:06 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
Taking a worthy activity like community service and making it a federal mandate for children is just wrong to me.
Is it wrong if it's only done on the district level?
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 3:48:56 PM
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2shaye
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I don't think it's a big deal at all. It's a graduation requirement here already. Both of my kids do some much volunteer work that the requirement is met quickly. All my kids friends were already doing some type of volunteer work, so it was no big deal to them either.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 3:56:37 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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You have to wonder, though, that if federal funds are attached, how long it will be before they dictate what kind of volunteer service...for instance, nothing religious, nothing that could be construed as anti-homosexual, etc.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 5:05:56 PM
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Karaboo2
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It has been a requirement province wide here for quite some time (I think it was implemented the year after I left highschool, so it's been required for approx. 10 years - I graduated in 1997). 40 hours of community service during your junior and senior years (gade 11 & 12) in order to get your OSSD (Ontario Secondary School Diploma). Anything counts, though ... from walking your elderly neighbour's dog to picking up trash in the park, to whatever ... as long as you have an adult sign off on it saying you did indeed do the work. My HS also organizes (and had long before the CS requirement went into effect) community service days ... these are things like: leaf raking for the elderly in the fall, collecting food for the local food bank the first Saturday in December, etc.
I, personally, volunteered at a local hospital the entire time I was in highschool. I quite easily accumulated in excess of 200 volunteer hours per year.
Now, if they started putting limitations on what could count (such as insisting it was non-religious or whatever) I would possibly get perturbed ... but the way it is right now doesn't bother me. Mind you, our requirements weren't tied to federal funding. This was a blanket policy for any school which granted a provincial high school diploma, even if they didn't receive provincial funding.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 5:07:30 PM
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Mrs.X
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
Yeah, I had to do 50 hours of community service in order to graduate, I thought it was the easiest requirement. Pretty much everything counted, IIRC. I had stuff from church, 4-H, and school clubs. My brother had some hours that he worked for an elderly neighbor and those were also counted. Basically, the school wanted you to demonstrate that you were an active part of the community.
Personally, I don't think it's to much to ask of anyone. I was doing way more then 20 hours a year in middle school just through 4-H alone, and now I'm a mommy carrying a full college course load and would be fine doing 20-40 hours this year. The honest truth is that the majority of kids/teens/adults don't give a lick about their neighbors or their community.
It is probably one of the few federally mandated things I wouldn't balk at, and I tend to balk at 98% of them
You're probably right about the college kids. I never went to college, but it was always my impression that they're overwhelmed from movies and friends and stuff.
But, middle schoolers aren't old enough to go places on their own (depending on the city you live in), so it would require some parent participation by driving them there. A lot of parents have to work and stuff, so it really wouldn't be the kids' fault. I'm sure there would be ways around it (like in my case a bus came and picked us up from our school and took us to the elementary school, and then the bus either took us back to our school, or some kids would just walk home from there.) or if another parent volunteered to give the kids rides. I dunno, I think it puts too much responsibility on a kid with uninvolved parents to make it to his commitment.
I do kinda agree with Jenny though, that it's not the school's business what kids are doing after school hours. When I was in high school I started a petition for homework to ONLY be assigned to kids who didn't do well on tests because I felt that since I was learning without doing homework, that I shouldn't have to do it. LOL! That's off-topic though, I don't entirely agree with the way I felt back then.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 5:09:50 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
When I was in high school I started a petition for homework to ONLY be assigned to kids who didn't do well on tests because I felt that since I was learning without doing homework, that I shouldn't have to do it. My own experience, similar to yours, was one of the factors that lead to homeschooling my own kids. Grading was about everyone doing the same thing the same way at the same time, not on what you knew or what you learned.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 5:13:59 PM
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Karaboo2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.X
I dunno, I think it puts too much responsibility on a kid with uninvolved parents to make it to his commitment.
I do remember hearing about one parent becoming quite upset at the community service requirement, as they lived half an hour outside of town, so couldn't really even do the school events which were organized on the weekends. You wanna know what the kid ended up doing? He liked music, so on his lunch break a couple of times each week, he would go into the music room and help the music teacher repair / clean the instruments. He easily got his 40 hours ... and a few other students found places to help around the building during school hours ... such as being a buddy for a special needs child (assisting them with things like note-taking, etc)
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 5:15:31 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Karaboo2
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.X
I dunno, I think it puts too much responsibility on a kid with uninvolved parents to make it to his commitment.
I do remember hearing about one parent becoming quite upset at the community service requirement, as they lived half an hour outside of town, so couldn't really even do the school events which were organized on the weekends. You wanna know what the kid ended up doing? He liked music, so on his lunch break a couple of times each week, he would go into the music room and help the music teacher repair / clean the instruments. He easily got his 40 hours ... and a few other students found places to help around the building during school hours ... such as being a buddy for a special needs child (assisting them with things like note-taking, etc)
Yeah, we had kids who did the same thing.
I think what is fantastic about community service is that it gets kids off their behind and out doing something. The majority of middle schoolers I know go home after to school to play XBox or Playstation. There are kids who are volunteering, but the vast majority are not.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 5:17:45 PM
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Sunnymom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
Taking a worthy activity like community service and making it a federal mandate for children is just wrong to me.
Is it wrong if it's only done on the district level?
At the district level, the community (including and especially parents) have a voice in whether or not a program like this is in place, how it is implemented, and what the criteria are. When something like this is overseen at the federal level, it ends up an octopus of mandates and programs and wasteful gov't spending. The more federalized education becomes, the farther away it is from community and family, the less it is about the needs of children and the desires of parents, and the more it is about power-mongers and politicians manipulating the system to maintain a chokehold on the citizenry.
If a community wants to have their children required to perform services for that community, then fine. A parent can opt out by putting their child in a private school or homeschooling if they object to mandated volunteerism, but at least a parent has more of a voice in the process at the local level.
That is why IMO the Constitution is so broad and leaves most things up to individual states- so that different areas of the country could preserve their way of life. You can't compare life in Mobile ,Alabama to life in Lesage, WV to life in New York City. What works for one area doesn't work at all for another, but federalization completely ignores that, and small communities lose their impact on the system.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 5:19:25 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Karaboo2
Now, if they started putting limitations on what could count (such as insisting it was non-religious or whatever) I would possibly get perturbed ... but the way it is right now doesn't bother me. Mind you, our requirements weren't tied to federal funding. This was a blanket policy for any school which granted a provincial high school diploma, even if they didn't receive provincial funding.
I agree there could be problems if they tried to control what type of volunteerism (there are some gray areas I can think of, though), but overall it doesn't bother me that much.
And they would have to provide some way of volunteering for children who couldn't drive and their parents were working 80 hours a week to put food on the table (children of a single parent perhaps).
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 6:19:09 PM
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mommyplus3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
I haven't forgotten- My family qualifies for every gov't program you can think of, but we do not use them because we don't believe in using the power of gov't to take what others have earned and give it to us. God has always provided, and if He doesn't, then I reckon we don't need it. And no- we don't have health insurance either.
Back to the topic- I believe that God honors serving from a heart of love and gratitude, and that this country was founded on principles of personal liberty. Taking a worthy activity like community service and making it a federal mandate for children is just wrong to me.
wow...how nice for you that you haven't been in the position to need any government assistance. when we had to use the foodstamp program for 3 months (the emergency period), i thought God was providing for our family, but according to your post, it was not something that He was providing. well, maybe you're right, but i know taht without the assistance, we would not have made it. hubby at lost his job, and we honestly ahad nowhere else to turn. and, before the thought comes into play, no, we don't have a church. we have just moved and have not found a home church yet.
as for the volunteer requirements, like many have already said, it is already required in many districts. i have no problem for it being federally mandated in the schools. and some of the issues brought up about what type of volunteering will be allowed, will not even come into play (imho). in the areas that already have this requirement, most anything is allowed as long as there is verification that it was done, so i don't understand what the problem is.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 6:33:17 PM
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Sideways
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My parents also used government help for a short period of time. My father joined the Army so that he could get better/more stable pay and decent housing for his family. The irony is that an E-3 is qualified for food stamps, but we didn't actually need them. We certainly did need them before.
It sounds as if the feds are simply providing funding, but there is still a lot of room for local control. Unless they actually try to step in and specify how kids can and cannot volunteer, I don't see the issue.
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 6:45:24 PM
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JuliaHop
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quote:
So no one really has a problem with the gov't requiring volunteerism of children? It just spoils the whole idea of voluntary volunteering, IMO.
I have a definite problem with using children to perform services to earn my tax dollars. I am not paying taxes to fund slavery.
Mandatory community service is not "volunteerism", it would be an abuse of power. What right does the federal government have to withhold funds if children do not cover for cuts in funding to other areas of social programs? Or, what right does the federal government have to expand social programs on the backs of our children?
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RE: Community Service Required for Graduation? - 7/9/2008 7:03:05 PM
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frazzledmom
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Community service hours are already required in our school district. (40, i think) Somehow I think it's possible to turn volunteer work into duty when it's mandated. It's a tricky balance. Teens need some work experience and exposure and volunteering could give them a taste of something they might be interested in.
I loved the days my teen volunteers came to my preschool classroom-I could actually set out a fun messy project that one of us would supervise. The extra hands and eyes were always welcome.
Federal mandates? Hmmmm I gravitate toward local control on that one.
My question would be: Who decides what programs the teens can volunteer in? If federal dollars are attached at some point, can teens even get credit for doing VBS at a local church, or will faith-based organizations be left out?
And, perhaps more importantly, would teens still want to work VBS, if they can't get credit for it, simply because it's fun and they WANT to?
Perhaps the government can mandate actions / behaviors, but our leaders can't mandate matters of the heart. I think the attitude with which all this is done is key. While it's a "requirement" I hope someone is encouraging teens to view it as "career exploration" or "giving back to the community" or "doing a good turn" .
Frazzledmom
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