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Does God Exist? - 4/20/2008 2:54:40 AM
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rebelyell
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ok folks, here is something that should be both educational and fun. i will pretend to be an atheist, and you must show me that God exists. you should all be able to do this. here goes.
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/20/2008 3:18:53 AM
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RatherDashing
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I refer you to my Life, the Universe, and Everything sermon.
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/20/2008 3:31:04 AM
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rebelyell
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OK, well, has it ever occured to you that perhaps the material universe is eternal? The cosmos is all there ever was, all there is, and all there ever will be.
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If ye ain't mor keerful, ah'll be a aimin' this 'ere same gun at ye!
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/20/2008 3:48:51 AM
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RatherDashing
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For it to be, there had to be something to create it. That's how it is with everything in life.
There are no films without a producer. No CDs without a composer. No material without a manufactor.
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Some people say matter always existed. Great, I say God always existed.
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/20/2008 4:51:39 AM
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rebelyell
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no, you must be misunderstanding. i am saying that there is no spirit at all. the material universe has always existed. it was never created; it just always was. it had no beginning, just like your God in creationism had no beginning.
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Guns don't kill people. Abortion doctors kill people.
If ye ain't mor keerful, ah'll be a aimin' this 'ere same gun at ye!
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/20/2008 7:10:12 AM
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RatherDashing
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Basically, you're saying:
- the universe had no intelligent designer, but rather formed by a random occurrence of; solar nebula from the formation of the sun, and collisions of objects injected into the earth to form its structure.
- biological organisms and molecules inhabit earth, using energetic chemistry (given from photosynthesis and the conversion by sunlight), replicating themselves with various errors until a single cell produced something that was useful enough to periodically evolve over 2.5 mya, and only 200,000 years ago did society begin to originate in the form we see today.
A common pattern is developed in these theories, and that is the concept of happenstance.
In Biblical times, more than one witness was required in criminal cases. If one individual was present to testify against the criminal, that one individual's word alone wouldn't be documented into any records. Two or more had to be present to verify it happened. Jesus was seen by over 500 witnesses after the resurrection. Over 500 people can testify to His existence. In the court of law, if that many witnesses relay the same story, then it happened.
Our worldview is this; an idea presented by one man based on no account of actual evidence supporting his claim. Just assumption, not scientifical fact.
The Bible gives account to each question on the "how's". Firstly:
- The Trinity, not just the Father, had a role in creation. Jesus Christ is the Word through whom God created all things. (noting the fact that God literally spoke everything into existence.)
- In the Gospel of John, Jesus is revealed as the eternal Word of God. Once more, Paul confirms that, "all things created: things in heaven and on earth, visible or invisible... all things were created by Him for Him."
- As mentioned above, Jesus was seen by over 500 witnesses after His resurrection. Given these accounts, He was confirmed to have existed.
If He DID exist, then He must've been the Word through which God spoke as the Bible proclaims. If that's so, then God must exist as the infinite, eternal, self-existent Being He is described to be.
If the Bible isn't true, then it's back to a theory. If that theory is true...
- How did society progress through massive extinction through 4.0 billion years and remain in tact?
- What constructed the solar fabric that's empty of matter and friction?
- Assuming that it already existed, of what did it form from? and how did it form out of nothingness when there was nothing prior to form it?
It's easier to just say "God doesn't exist" and stay clear of the concept of an intelligent designer and hide behind the assumption of an idea that doesn't produce any more logicalness.
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Some people say matter always existed. Great, I say God always existed.
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/20/2008 8:49:28 AM
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Konstantinos
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there is no scientific proof to prove God's existence, or to disprove it.
there are many many reasons that logically point to God probably existing.
in the end its up to someone's heart and soul whether they will believe in God or not... so IMO this whole thing is pointless
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/20/2008 4:44:43 PM
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ShutterBox
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yeah, i've played this game before. This argument will just go in circles until someone gives up.
Atheists believe in cold hard see-it-for-themselves evidence, which cannot be provided.
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/20/2008 4:49:10 PM
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RatherDashing
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It CAN be provided. It's all written and periodically documented in the Bible. They just choose to ignore another concept outside of the worldview their presented with, but rather trash it because they have neither A. no documented evidence to support evolution. B. no evidence to disapprove creation.
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Some people say matter always existed. Great, I say God always existed.
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/20/2008 10:22:51 PM
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RatherDashing
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So I win, yes?
*confetti*
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Some people say matter always existed. Great, I say God always existed.
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/20/2008 10:54:16 PM
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Jesusfreak108
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Ooooh interesting subject. I have been thinking about all this stuff lately too. Also, for a person who beleives in evolution (would that be an athiest?). Heres the question: Why aren't monkey's still evolving into humans?
Has anyone ever read "Case for Christ"? I bought it on Ebay and am waiting for it.
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/21/2008 12:19:27 AM
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inhale_exhale
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here.. i have a real one.
so i once was atheist, but i'm not anymore.
but i sill have doubts.
doubts about what the bible being true, about God being there.
i mean i know hes real.
but is heaven and hell??
does God even care??
or better yet, is the rapture true, or just another fairy tale like cinderella and snow white??
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/21/2008 5:29:14 AM
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Real_Solitude
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This sounds like fun. I'm going to be helping Rebel along. Since Dashing has taken most of the space in this thread, he's getting his own response-post. I'll handle all other response in my following post. This will be structured based on the order of your posts.
quote:
RatherDashing
Interesting title (Life, the Universe, and Everything) to choose for a lecture on creationism, considering Douglas Adams' was self-described as a "radical atheist."
"While time began with the production of two elements, the heavens and the earth, with an intelligent designer crafting these two elements from complete nothingness."
There are a number of problems with this. The first is that the heavens and the earth are not elements, as defined scientifically. The second is that the heavens (if you're referring to 'anything not on earth' and not the place after death') and the earth are both made out of the same stuff, and therefore there is no need for differentiation. The third is that you're positing that things can either
A. Come out of nothing (as in God's creating H&E, or God himself coming to exist.)
B. Exist eternally (if we're assuming that God always existed.)
If you're going to posit that something can come out of nothing, there is no reason to assume a creator. If you're going to posit that things can exist eternally, there is no reason to posit a creator. This is because if you can apply one of these to the creator, then it has to be applicable to the universe as well.
This isn't to mention the problems in the creation story itself. (Light existing before sources.)
I understand that you're not really making a scientific appeal in this piece, but more of an emotional one, but there are still things that need to be answered.
"For it to be, there had to be something to create it. That's how it is with everything in life."
This is to be read without irony?
Again, you're positing an eternal God, then immediately turning to say that all things must be created. Even if you're only saying that all things within the universe need to be created, this obviously can't apply to the universe as a whole. Not to mention that, with the advent of quantum physics, we do know of uncaused events (or events that appear uncaused, at least).
" Basically, you're saying:[...] produce any more logicalness"
Going point-by-point.
*Your understanding of cosmology is flawed. The things you mention are not inherently random. The universe follows certain laws. You can argue that in an uncreated universe, these laws are random, but after that, you can't claim randomness. The reason that everything formed as it did, from nebula to stars to planets, would be because everything was obeying according to the natural laws. (In this case, namely gravity and the other fundamental forces).
*Your view of abiogenesis and evolution are flawed. Things would have formed due to natural law up until the first imperfect replicator comes to be. From that point on, the survival of any given replicator (including animal life) is based on its ability to survive within its environment. This process is essentially non-random. It takes an element of randomness (mutation), and uses a non-random process to act upon it (Natural selection). It would be akin to having a box filled with separate shapes, but only a round hole, and when shaken calling it random that only round objects fell out of the box.Happenstance is involved, but not as heavily as is usually perceived.
Eyewitness accounts are the least acceptable form of court testimony, as the psyche is easily susceptible to changing based on perceived desire. People can be convinced that they saw things that never happened. This isn't even to call into question the validity of the account that 500 people did see him. It is much easier to forge an account that says there were 500 witnesses than to round up 500 people to witness. Remember that you're trying to convince an atheist. Biblical inerrancy can not be touted without proof.
*** Again, you're using Biblical inerrancy. This time you're adding cyclical logic to the mix as well. You're saying, basically, that the Bible says that God created the universe, and we know this is true because God says he wrote the Bible. If you're going to attempt to use this logic, then you must also accept every other religion that has ever made a similar claim.
If the Bible isn't true then it's back to a Theory. Just like the Theory of Gravity, the Atomic Theory, Germ Theory, Cell Theory, the Theory of General Relativity etc... In scientific nomenclature, fact is something that physically exists (things fall). Theory is the explanation for this (Theory of Gravity). Calling something a theory is high praise, because it means that a hypothesis has undergone rigorous enough testing to gain acceptance in the scientific community as the correct explanation for the event in question.
*It didn't. As you yourself said, humanity only emerged about 200,000 years ago. As humans are the only creatures to ever truly have society, society has only been around for 200k years. And even then it has had a rather poor showing, being interspersed with constant war as it is.
*There is no such thing as "solar fabric." Unless you're going to use actual terminology, or define your terminology, I can't respond. There is no such thing as a perfect vacuum in the natural world, so there is always friction and matter. (Even space has matter, just at very low densities.)
*Again, there's no such thing. If you're referring to the whole universe always existing or forming from nothing, then I ask the same about God. Any answer you use can also be used for me.
It is easier to simply say "God doesn't exist" or "God does exist" and just leave it there. Thankfully, many people are not satisfied with the easy answer, and have given us explanations for their reasons.
"It CAN be provided. It's all written and periodically documented in the Bible. They just choose to ignore another concept outside of the worldview their presented with, but rather trash it because they have neither A. no documented evidence to support evolution. B. no evidence to disapprove creation."
Once again, an atheist will not assume the inerrancy of the Bible. Much of the Bible is either disregarded or questioned by the secular historical community. For instance, there is little to no evidence that there were Hebrew slaves in Egypt within several centuries of the claimed dates. There is no evidence of a global flood. There is plenty of contrary evidence to a young earth/universe. There is evidence that Jesus existed (it is generally accepted that he did) but anywhere near to the Biblical description.
If you're trying to convince an atheist, the Bible is a poor place to go for facts.
Also, there is plenty and plenty of documented evidence for evolution. That's why evolutionary theory is still in existence over 150 years after it's popularization. The fossil record and the geological column are strong evidence for evolution. Endogenous Retroviruses are another. Biology and genetics are filled with evidence for evolution. There are over 200,000 (I think that's the number) peer-reviewed publications that give evidence for evolution. A simple internet search can fill you in on many of the basic pieces of evidence for evolution.
I'm only talking about evidence for Evolutionary Theory. Evolution as a natural process is accepted as fact, because it can be observed. (Evolution as fact deals with genetic drift, not species change.).
< Message edited by Real_Solitude -- 4/21/2008 6:18:10 AM >
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"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/21/2008 6:11:08 AM
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Real_Solitude
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quote:
Jesusfreak108
For a person who beleives in evolution (would that be an athiest?). Heres the question: Why aren't monkey's still evolving into humans?
Has anyone ever read "Case for Christ"? I bought it on Ebay and am waiting for it.
Accepting in evolution does not make you an atheist. In fact, not all atheists accept evolution as true. Atheist means, simply, not-theist. An atheist is any person who does not believe that a god exists. Beyond that, there is no common bond for atheists. Atheism is not a group of people who do believe in something, it's a scattering of people who simply choose to not believe in something.
As for your question:
If you want a short answer, it's because they don't have to. If you want that answer explained, read on.
I can't respond to your question directly, because it has a few problems with it. I'm going to, instead, show what Evolutionary Theory does show, and then attempt to answer your question from there. Instead of attempting to explain it in bulky language, I'm going to hand it off to a Youtuber named PotHoler45. Watch the first one, and if you have time, the second. Click here to see natural selection explained. Or, Click here to see evolution explained.
If you didn't watch those (do so), here's what you need to know. If a population of animals is split into two groups, that are the same animal but separated by geography, then something may happen. Let us label them "A" and "B". Since natural selection is based on which animals are best suited to their environments, let us say that A moves away, and B stays in the same environment. While B is suited to it's environment which is full of trees, A moves onto plains. In trees, there's no advantage to being able to walk uprights, so B walks on its knuckles. A, however, now lives on a plain, where walking upright allows for greater sight and speed. Over a long period of time (hundreds of thousands-millions of years) the entire population of A walks upright. A and B are no longer the same species.
The reasons that monkeys aren't evolving into humans any more are twofold. The first is that they are well-suited to their environments. Any change will be negative, and so they stay monkeys. The second is that evolution generally takes a very long time. Even if monkeys were evolving to become like humans, we wouldn't see it for a long time. The reason that humans are distinct from monkeys is because humans are good at being humans (walking upright) and monkeys are good at being monkeys (swinging in trees). There is no tendency for monkeys to evolve into humans, because evolution is not about becoming 'better'. Evolution is about being well-suited to your environment. If that means that you're stupid and slow (bacteria), then creatures will tend to evolve to be stupid and slow. Humanity isn't some goal for evolution to reach. Humanity only happened because it was beneficial to our ancestor population to become more human-like.
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"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/21/2008 3:06:33 PM
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violinist_for_jesus
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I sincerely hope that you do not believe that to be factual.
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RE: Does God Exist? - 4/21/2008 4:39:04 PM
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Real_Solitude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: violinist_for_jesus
I sincerely hope that you do not believe that to be factual.
Which part? In no particular order, with each sentence being stand-alone, having nothing to do with the previous:
Evolution is considered one of the best substantiated scientific theories. Secular historians do deny a lot of things in the Bible due to lack of, or contrary historical evidence. Accepting evolution does not make you an atheist. We do know of seemingly uncaused quantum events. That is what evolutionary theory teaches (well, close enough). In a purely logical sense, posing a God does cause a problem of exclusion, or of regress. Douglas Adams did describe himself as a 'radical atheist'. Light before a source is scientifically impossible. Cosmology and Evolution are, essentially, non-random. That is how natural selection works. Eyewitness accounts are generally considered bad evidence. Attempting to use Biblical inerrancy in a discussion with an atheist is a bad idea. "Theory" is a prestigious title in science (saying something is 'just' a theory is like saying someone 'only' won a Nobel prize). True society really does only exist in humans. There is no such thing as solar fabric. There is a massive amount of evidence for a old earth/universe. There is little or no evidence of a global flood.
If you take issue with any particular claim, I'd be glad to discuss it in more detail.
P.S.
No, I don't know why I decided to italicize every copula.
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"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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