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George Wythe College - 6/19/2008 2:30:10 PM
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bzirk
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A few years ago I read A Thomas Jefferson Education by Oliver Van DeMille, and it had some great things to say. It was also a promotion of George Wythe college.
Right now I'm bugged because I saw a type of promotion of this school at the Christian homeschool conference last week, and although it sounds like a great way to learn, I'm pretty sure (not 100% but close) that this is a Mormon school. This really bugs me, and I am praying about it.
A few years ago I sent a note to the Christian homeschooler who uses Van DeMille's book and promotes it in his homeschooling materials. I tried to explain in my rather lengthy request about the book that I dealt with Mormons on a regular basis, and it's become apparent by having interaction with the Mormon leaders in our area and other members that there is a great amount of deception in that "church," and it was troublesome to see tacit approval of someone decidedly Mormon, but perhaps I was just being supersensitive to the issue; however, I still needed to ask his thoughts on it.  He responded very politely but it was obvious he was offended that I would question his use of the book, since the book is so good, and we all read 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, which is also written by a Mormon, and gleaned a lot from it. My thinking is that might be well and fine, but that book doesn't promote a Mormon college to young people.
Anyway I dropped the matter except for anyone who asked me about the book or the homeschool materials and its promotion of the book and ultimately of George Wythe college. Then I go to the conference this weekend and see George Wythe college being more or less promoted.
Okay, enough of my vent. This post is to pick your brains about anything you may know about the school, because I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly before I raise the issue with Christian Home Educators of Colorado, who hosted the event.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/19/2008 3:02:48 PM
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cynthia
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I believe you are referring to Andrew Pudewa. He is really sold on the leadership model of education. I also think that George Wythe College is a Mormon college and am strongly opposed to encouraging the heresy of the Mormon beliefs. I think that one can separate the Thomas Jefferson Education from Mormonism.
I just briefly looked at the George Wythe College mission statement. It did mention Christianity, but not Mormonism. I don't see anything (in my brief look) that would indicate it is a Mormon college, but Van De Mille is a Mormon. From what I see, they are not claiming to be a Christian college either, but they are claiming to be a liberal arts college.
The Thomas Jefferson education model is about providing a liberal arts education. Andrew Pudewa seems to be calling it "Freedomship Education." I heard Pudewa speak about that at the Washington Homeschool Organization convention last weekend. It was a terrific lecture. My fourteen year old daughter liked it best of the three lectures she attended. She seemed to find it inspiring and interesting.
So I hope this is the kind of input you are looking for. I think the Mormon connection is harmless since I have not noticed any promotion of Mormonism at all. Only of principles that we can pretty much all agree upon.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/19/2008 3:25:18 PM
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bzirk
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I've heard him speak as well, and he makes a great case. I actually like the book by van DeMille, but since God is repeatedly talked about in the book and van DeMille is a founder of the college, it behooves Pudewa to give a proviso with his recommendation of the book, and certainly not to promote a college that addresses the issue of God and is founded and run Mormons. That is bothersome.
It's just hard t see George Wythe college as just a liberal arts school since it does involve itself in beliefs concerning God.
An excerpt from the mission statement of George Wythe college:
George Wythe College stands on the belief that statesmanship is the product of a particular educational schema, known to the Framers of the Constitution, but lost to modern academia. It is a principle-centered process grounded in the belief in God and immutable moral law, framed on the classics of literature, history, and philosophy, and crowned in the discipline of real-world application under the guidance of a committed and caring mentor.
(emphasis mine)
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/19/2008 3:34:14 PM
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cynthia
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Could Andrew Pudewa be a Mormon? I have been wondering about this, especially since I couldn't find a thing about Mormonism on the George Wythe College site, but did find lots of mention of Christianity and Christian faith. If I didn't know better and had seen the George Wythe College website, I might think they were a Christian college similar to Patrick Henry College.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/19/2008 3:43:09 PM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cynthia
Could Andrew Pudewa be a Mormon? I have been wondering about this, especially since I couldn't find a thing about Mormonism on the George Wythe College site, but did find lots of mention of Christianity and Christian faith. If I didn't know better and had seen the George Wythe College website, I might think they were a Christian college similar to Patrick Henry College.
I asked him in that note I referred to. He said he was raised Catholic and did not in any way espouse Mormonism just that he liked the principles put forth in the book and then he compared it to other books put out by Mormons which have been beneficial. So no, I don't think he is, but I didn't like the signage at his booth that I could see from 30-50 feet away:
George Wythe College
If this were somewhere other than a Christian Homeschool conference, it probably wouldn't bother me. But there is a tacit approval that goes along with being a vendor at those things.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/19/2008 5:16:01 PM
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bzirk
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I guess I'm just trying to figure out if I'm overreacting to this. I think if it was clear that George Wythe is influenced by Mormons, then it wouldn't bother me. Or if it was a secular school, it would put Christians on notice for what they might be getting into. But it's not really secular, and not really Christian.
Plus, I like Andrew Pudewa's materials and he seems to be fine, so I don't want to slam him at all. But I'm very uneasy about this stuff.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/19/2008 5:19:42 PM
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cynthia
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Are you concerned that they are hiding the fact that they are Mormon and are trying a new way to suck in the unsuspecting?
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/19/2008 5:21:25 PM
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cynthia
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The impression I'm getting is that they are supportive of and agree with the Judeo/Christian worldview and are wanting to encourage that, without pushing any particular faith, as long as it has Judeo/Christian root. They want to promote a particular type of leadership education and mentoring from people who have a faith, although, not necessarily a mainstream Christian or Catholic denomination. That's what I think anyway.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/19/2008 5:32:05 PM
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bzirk
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That could be, Cynthia.
I guess I'm so used to some of the Mormons I know holding themselves out as Christians and indeed sucking people into something that is not Christian. That's disturbing to me. Maybe after 10 years I'm too sensitive to this, but it just seems that promoting a school founded and run by Mormons is not appropriate at a Christian conference.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/19/2008 5:38:30 PM
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cynthia
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We have discussed this a couple of other times. I know the Mormon component has really disturbed you. I understand that, but I have found the underlying principles that are the foundations of this method appear to be sound. I can't see sending any of my children to George Wythe College, however. Have you mentioned, to the homeschool organization that had the event, your concerns about George Wythe College?
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/19/2008 6:00:54 PM
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bzirk
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That is exactly what I was trying to decide -- whether or not to raise the issue with them. I probably will say something, but I hate having to do it. 
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 11:49:50 AM
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cynthia
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I've been thinking about this some more. I don't think George Wythe College was started to draw people into Mormonism. I think the reason they don't say anything about the founder being Mormon (and probably a lot of the staff too), is that religion is not the foundation of what they are teaching. It is an educational model to produce leaders. That is the method and goal of their college.
At the convention you went to, are only Christian colleges allowed to advertise? Are there secular colleges that participate? If that is the case, then I think it would be appropriate for George Wythe College to be represented. I would assume that other vendors that are not necessarily Christian are also represented. If not, then perhaps it is a point to take up with the conference leadership, otherwise, I'd let it go and not worry about it.
< Message edited by cynthia -- 6/20/2008 11:55:53 AM >
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 12:08:10 PM
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bzirk
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That's a good question. Perhaps there are some secular schools or institutions represented, but I haven't seen them.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 12:12:33 PM
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cynthia
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Institute for Excellence in Writing is secular, isn't it? I don't think it is specifically a Christian curriculum, but Andrew Pudewa seems to be a Christian. Can you check through the exibitor list and see what other companies were there and if they are all Christian or not?
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 12:41:35 PM
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bzirk
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When I've been at the IEW booth, it was not presented as a secular program. The people at the booths were Christians and speaking of the program in Christian terms. Also, Oliver van DeMille speaks about God repeatedly in his book. That right there makes it something that is not secular, and his principles are the ones being propogated at George Wythe.
What's funny is that I read the book, and it seemed completely fine, yet the Holy Spirit prompted me to find out about the author. I mean I was driven to find out his background, and it kind of surprised me, but I knew I was supposed to do it. All the time I was doing searches, I thought I would find out some great and wonderful thing about him that the Lord wanted me to know. You could have knocked me over with a feather when I found out he is Mormon and that the school does address the issue of God, which means it's probably done with a Mormon bent -- albeit probably subtle. I knew then it was something to stay away from, but I dropped the matter in my mind until I saw that college being promoted at a Christian event.
The bottomline is that it's not clear cut that IEW, A Thomas Jefferson Education or George Wythe are secular, and in fact, I would say they're not. Oh, IEW's written materials seem to be, but they are happy to accept the tacit approval of a Chrisian group hosting a Christian event. Oliver van DeMille repeatedly references God in his book, and George Wythe College certainly is obviously driven in part by issues of God -- as evidenced on their website (excerpt reiterated below). None of that sounds secular to me.
quote:
George Wythe College stands on the belief that Statesmanship is the product of a particular educational system, known to the great leaders of the past, but lost to modern academia. It is a principle-centered process grounded in the belief in God and immutable moral law, framed on the classics of literature, history, science, the arts, and philosophy, and crowned in the discipline of real-world application under the guidance of a committed and caring mentor.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 12:57:09 PM
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cynthia
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I think using Thomas Jefferson as the example held up for the model they are promoting is very telling. Thomas Jefferson believed in God, but he was not a Christian. It's been a while since I read the book, but I think their position is that it is important to believe in God and have that Judeo/Christian foundation, but one doesn't necessarily have to be a born again Christian. I don't think they put it quite that bluntly, but I think that where they are coming from.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 1:01:23 PM
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cynthia
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But what is Christian? What is secular? They are not promoting any particular type of Christianity and Christianity is quite fragmented in our culture at the moment. Lots of people think they are Christian, but they don't even hold a Christian world view. In fact, the vast majority of people that are Christian do not hold a Christian world view, according to the Barna research group. (I do not have a link to that information.) That is why Focus on the Family has started the Truth Project, because so few Christian actually even have a Christian world view. I think that has a lot to do with what is going on here, regarding our discussion of George Wythe College. You and I have a Christian world view. I know this from reading your posts over the years. However, that is not true of most people who call themselves Christian, including clergy. I am sure you have seen this, since you are involved in ministry.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 1:13:15 PM
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bzirk
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I've seen it. That worldview should not be at a Christian conference unless it's made clear it is not Christian. If that's not clear, then a trust is implied that shouldn't be.
BTW, I heartily agree with your asssessment of the presentation of Thomas Jefferson as an indicator. He was a deist and not a Christian -- at least from everything I've read of his writings. He was not a follower of Jesus Christ as Lord.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 1:34:42 PM
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cynthia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
I've seen it. That worldview should not be at a Christian conference unless it's made clear it is not Christian. If that's not clear, then a trust is implied that shouldn't be.
But the problem with this is that only a small minority of "Christians" have a Christian world view. They are not able to spot the difference. That is why you are having this issue. You have a Christian world view. You think anything presented at a Christian conference should have a Christian world view. How can that happen when the very people who call themselves Christians do not even realize that their world view is distorted and not really Christian? That is the real problem here.
It further complicates matters that Mormons think they are Christians!
The promoters and organizers of the Christian conference may not have a solid Christian world view. If this is true, which according to statistics, it very well may be, how can they determine who is and is not a Christian? If a Christian conference has guidelines that the vendors and speakers must be Christians and the people that sign up appear to be Christians, how do they determine whether they really are or not? How deep should they go in determining that? Is there a statement of faith?
The main thing that has bothered me about the Thomas Jefferson Education model is the emphasis on the student drawing his own conclusions. Yes, we need to teach our children to be good thinkers and to draw their own conclusions, but for it to have any value, it must be Holy Spirit led and based on a foundation of Biblical truth. Leadership means there is a leader and the students who are being trained to be leaders must also be led down the path of truth, not down a path of religious relativism, which is my main concern with the model presented in A Thomas Jefferson Education and even at Andrew Pudewa's lecture on leadership education. I like the model better than anything else I've seen, but there has to be someone who is strong and knowledgable in his faith to lead the student down the right track and correct errors along the way. I am not sure if that is supposed to be the role of the mentor or not. There are wrong answers and that is as important a point to understand, in one's journey of learning, as anything else.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 2:01:52 PM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cynthia
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
I've seen it. That worldview should not be at a Christian conference unless it's made clear it is not Christian. If that's not clear, then a trust is implied that shouldn't be.
But the problem with this is that only a small minority of "Christians" have a Christian world view. They are not able to spot the difference. That is why you are having this issue. You have a Christian world view. You think anything presented at a Christian conference should have a Christian world view. How can that happen when the very people who call themselves Christians do not even realize that their world view is distorted and not really Christian? That is the real problem here.
It further complicates matters that Mormons think they are Christians!
The promoters and organizers of the Christian conference may not have a solid Christian world view. If this is true, which according to statistics, it very well may be, how can they determine who is and is not a Christian? If a Christian conference has guidelines that the vendors and speakers must be Christians and the people that sign up appear to be Christians, how do they determine whether they really are or not? How deep should they go in determining that? Is there a statement of faith?
The main thing that has bothered me about the Thomas Jefferson Education model is the emphasis on the student drawing his own conclusions. Yes, we need to teach our children to be good thinkers and to draw their own conclusions, but for it to have any value, it must be Holy Spirit led and based on a foundation of Biblical truth. Leadership means there is a leader and the students who are being trained to be leaders must also be led down the path of truth, not down a path of religious relativism, which is my main concern with the model presented in A Thomas Jefferson Education and even at Andrew Pudewa's lecture on leadership education. I like the model better than anything else I've seen, but there has to be someone who is strong and knowledgable in his faith to lead the student down the right track and correct errors along the way. I am not sure if that is supposed to be the role of the mentor or not. There are wrong answers and that is as important a point to understand, in one's journey of learning, as anything else.
You make great points, and that is exactly why I'm having a problem.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 2:36:19 PM
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cynthia
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Are you aware of The Truth Project? I want to participate in this and am planning to sign up for it this month. There is a simulcast being planned for September to train people to lead small groups on this. It is for Christians only. It is not for evangalism. It is soley to teach a Christian world view to people that identify themselves as Christians. Here's a link.
This is the logical conclusion to this issue. We must teach a Christian world view in the churches. One of the reasons why we homeschool is that I do not want my children led astray in the classroom. They need to be solid in their faith and in their understanding of the Word of God. This is imperative.
George Wythe College is not set up to do that. They are teaching leadership. One thing that Andrew Pudewa did say that is important is that we can train up children as great thinkers and great leaders, but if their foundation is not Truth, then we end up with Hitler and various other evil people leading. That is something we must avoid at all costs. I need to listen to his talk on Freedomship Education again. This whole subject is so foreign to how I grew up, it's hard to wrap my brain around it and know how much I can impliment, as my main goal is to complete the foundation before my children leave homeschooling. I'm not quite sure how to accomplish that with the Thomas Jefferson Education model, but I'm working on it. I'm really thankful that my first child is so grounded and doing so well in her faith, but the next two are not so easy as she has been. I want to be more prepared.
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 7:23:52 PM
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sen10tious
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Pardon my interruption...
I just read the college’s mission statement and their emphsis on 'a particular educational schema, known to the Framers of the Constitution' would pre-date Mormonism. The guy the college is named after signed the Declaration of Independence almost 30 years before Joseph Smith was born. Rather, probably because it is located in Utah, a lot of Mormons are associated with it and a lot of students who could not get into BYU go there as a second choice. (I know one woman whose daughter will be attending BYU next fall and I was amazed at how competitive it was to get in.)
Wikipedia (always the ultimate in accuracy  )says this about the college:
quote:
George Wythe College was founded in September, 1992 as a branch of Coral Ridge Baptist University by Donald Sills, with the assistance of Coral Ridge student Oliver DeMille, who was on leave from his undergraduate studies at Brigham Young University at the time.
... The school is constructing a new campus in Monticello, Utah. The new campus in Monticello is for the expanding college. The college will eventually be named "George Wythe University".
Coral Ridge Baptist University is in Jacksonville, Florida and is “one of those” unaccredited religious schools (see other thread). It should not be confused with Coral Ridge Presbyterian of Ft. Lauderdale, founded by D. James Kennedy.
edit to add:
Oliver DeMille is the president of George Wythe College, and the author of A Thomas Jefferson Education, A Thomas Jefferson Education Home Companion and Leadership Education: The Phases of Learning. He is a prominent figure for American homeschooling families.
DeMille attended Brigham Young University (BYU) but left before graduating to attend a small, unaccredited Bible school called Coral Ridge Baptist University, where he received a B.A. in Biblical Studies (May 1992), M.A. in Christian Political Science (December 1992) . [wow, a MA in seven months!] and Ph.D. in Religious Education (May 1994) ... DeMille served a two year mission for the LDS Church in Barcelona, Spain ... After receiving a doctorate from Coral Ridge, he returned to BYU and completed his bachelor's degree (August 1994). ~ also from Wikipedia
I'm not sure the Mormons would really want to claim this guy.
< Message edited by sen10tious -- 6/20/2008 7:58:24 PM >
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 7:53:18 PM
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cynthia
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That is strangly interesting and further reinforces my point; that a lot of people are really confused about what it means to be a Christian. It's not just a bunch of uneducated people with this problem, it's become a systemic problem within the Christian faith.
eta: clarification
< Message edited by cynthia -- 6/20/2008 8:05:33 PM >
_____________________________
The devil isn't winning, but he wants you to think he is so you will give up and let him win. Often the battle is hardest before the victory. You may get bloody, but that doesn't mean you are losing, it only means you are fighting.
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RE: George Wythe College - 6/20/2008 8:16:48 PM
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bzirk
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Actually, I read some of his Mormon writings on line when I was checking him out a few years ago. The Mormons have definitely welcomed him back -- if he ever really left, and he is respected in the Mormon community, or he was then.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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