|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 12:27:03 AM
|
|
|
2Tim215
Posts: 8
Joined: 10/16/2007
Status: offline
|
Hello.
There's a book that has been quite a hot topic in the blogosphere for the past year by a woman named Debbie Maken. The book is titled, "Getting Serious About Getting Married (Rethinking the Gift of Singleness)." It's sort of a reaction against all the bad teaching in the Church over the last few decades on the subject of singleness, in telling unmarried people things like, "If you're single, it must be God's will for you" and "Just wait on the Lord for a mate." I've managed to see through these sayings as bogus -- although they did cause some frustration and anxiety in me when I was younger.
After following the discussion her book spawned for quite a while, I decided to send her an email, detailing the influence Greek philosophy has had on the Body of Christ for centuries and how it's contributed to much of the false teaching on singleness. She was kind enough to post it to her blog. I thought I'd post it here in case it might be helpful to someone.
Hi Debbie.
I stumbled upon your book on Amazon about a year ago and enjoyed it very much. Afterwards, I began following the singleness discussion on your blog and others. I could definitely relate to the frustration I saw expressed about the current marriage crisis. I was pleased to find that many others were rethinking the modern Church's teachings about singleness and marriage. I'd like to offer my thoughts on what I believe is the source of the faulty teaching on this subject in the Body of Christ.
You have rightly pointed out the harmful effects of the well-meaning platitudes Christian leaders tell singles about their situation, such as "If you're single, it's God's will for you right now"; "Wait on the Lord and He'll bring you the person He has for you"; and of course, "Singleness is a gift." I certainly agree with you that these words have produced much frustration and paralysis in Christian singles in recent years.
But the question must be asked: What do all these pious platitudes have in common? Answer: The implicit notion that God has chosen a particular person for each of us to marry, and that He will bring that person into our lives at the "appointed time" – that is, if it is His will that we marry at all. A typical Christian hears the expression, "the person God has for you" literally hundreds of times in his life - at Church; from family and friends; on Christian TV and radio; in books and magazines. The idea is so ubiquitous in the Christian world that it goes largely unquestioned. Not to mention the belief, so common in the popular culture, that we each possess a "soul mate".
By the way, one very overlooked passage of scripture that implies God does not have a particular person picked out for each of us is 1 Cor. 7:39-40 (NKJV):
" 39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my judgment-and I think I also have the Spirit of God."
"…to whom she wishes…"
I'm convinced that these flawed ideas follow quite logically from the fatalistic worldview that has permeated Christianity for many centuries.
Due largely to the Neo-Platonist movement at the time of Augustine, Christianity [and Western Civilization in general -- "Que Sera, Sera, Whatever will be, will be" ] has been greatly influenced by Greek philosophy – Plato's writings in particular. Augustine is "credited" with harmonizing Platonic thought with Christian theology. In his 'Confessions' he admitted that his commitment to the Greeks was so great that he refused to become a Christian until Ambrose, the bishop of Milan, showed him how he could interpret Scripture through the prism of Greek philosophy. Augustine had seen a clear distinction between the way the Bible presents God, and the Greek's conception of divinity -- and he preferred the latter!
The Church's commitment to philosophy continued through the Reformation with Luther -- an Augustinian monk -- and Calvin, who revered Augustine's writings. Calvin's theology is considered to be in many ways a revival of Augustinianism. Many Reformation seminaries placed an equal emphasis on the study of The Classics (Greek philosophy) as on the study of Holy Scripture. In short, the Reformation freed the Body of Christ from Rome, but not from Greece.
The concept of an eternally settled (preordained) future that cannot be altered in any way – by either God or man - is a superstitious, pagan idea, not a Biblical one. The Greeks called it Fate, while many Christians call it God's Will or Providence, but it's source is the superstition that has been common in pagan cultures throughout history -- most significantly in ancient Greece. By the way, the term "providence" was actually coined by the Greeks, and later adopted by Christian theologians.
This doesn't mean Greek philosophy is worthless. In fact, one of the major factors in the advancement of science in the West – along with the influence of Christianity, with its belief that God created an orderly universe - was the development of the laws of logic by the philosophers of ancient Greece. However, whatever truth may be contained in any man-made philosophy -- especially that which attempts to describe the nature of God, man and reality -- must be gleaned by reading it through the prism of God's Word, and not vice versa.
For the first 300 years of Church history - before the influence of Augustine - notable Christians like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement, Tertullian, Origen, Chrysostom and Jerome taught that because God possesses genuine freedom of will, and because man is created in His image and likeness, we do too. In the book, "God's Strategy in Human History" (Marston & Forster, 2000 Ed.), Alister McGrath, professor of historical theology at Oxford, is quoted as saying ( p.296), "The pre-Augustinian theological tradition is practically of one voice in asserting the freedom of the human will." McGrath considers Christianity's later denial of true libertarian human will to be a good thing, so his admission here is notable.
Today, the Body of Christ continues to be mired in a worldview derived from pagan philosophy, and it has a direct impact on practical life issues like how Christians pursue marriage -- or don't. Countless singles have had Church leaders discourage them from proactively pursuing marriage, telling them it will all just happen in "God's perfect time" or that they don't want to "get ahead of God." Even the dreaded "contentment lecture" that singles are often bludgeoned with when they express their desire to marry, flows logically from this fatalism. After all, if every aspect of life, including one's marital status, is following a sort of Divine Script, how can anyone be discontent with where God "has him"?
A while back you posted an article by Blaine Smith on your blog titled, "Is God A Matchmaker?" It's a good illustration of the paralysis these ideas can create in the lives of singles. He wrote:
A member of the church I attended as a single Christian wrote a song that became a favorite at weddings there. Many couples included it in their wedding ceremonies, and Evie and I began our own service with it. The first verse sets forth the theme that continues throughout the song: "Before God gave us life . . . He planned us for each other."
The song proclaims a belief which Christians have long held sacred--that God predetermines whom you marry. If he wants you to be married, he has one ideal choice in mind. And he works in many mysterious ways to bring you to the one for whom you are destined....
...I find that...[frequently] this viewpoint has an adverse effect on Christians....
...Most unfortunate...is the paralyzing effect this notion sometimes has on single Christians who want to be married. Some conclude that any personal effort to find a spouse is outside the bounds of faith. Changing jobs or churches to improve the prospects of meeting someone compatible, for instance, is out of the question. Faith demands that you sit still and wait for God to bring the right person to your doorstep.
In one extreme case a Christian woman told me she felt she must avoid any situation that would make it too easy to find a husband. She had four opportunities for missionary service. In three of these situations there were single men whom she would consider marrying. Thus she felt compelled to choose the fourth. Though this woman, who was past forty, deeply wanted to be married, she greatly feared getting her own will mixed up with God's in the matter. Making it as difficult as possible for God to bring a man into her life would help ensure that marriage would come about only if God willed....
...My experience...is that most Christians do not find this notion [the premise of the song] helpful when it comes to decisions related to marriage....
No, not helpful at all.
You might ask, "So, if this fatalism has infected Christianity for centuries, why is it only recently -- in the last few decades -- that we've experienced such passivity regarding the pursuit of marriage?"
Until fairly recently, because there was still general disapproval of pre-marital sex in our society, young men were quite motivated to look for a wife -- just as God intended. When the trend of marital delay began in the West in the 1960's - due mainly to the Sexual Revolution – Christians slowly adopted the new cultural norm of postponing marriage. The Body of Christ was then faced with the challenge of ministering to millions more unmarried people, and began to develop a sort of Theology of Singleness -- the foundation of which, unfortunately, was the superstition the Church has applied to every dilemma and tragedy in life for centuries.
There's an excellent audio presentation that is highly relevant to this issue called, "Predestination & Free Will" by a man I greatly admire named Bob Enyart . He's a radio talk show host and the Pastor of Denver Bible Church in Colorado. His ministry has had a tremendous impact on my life. The presentation is a six-hour seminar he held on this topic. Here's the description from his website:
So much is at stake when people consider predestination and free will. Strong emotions often surface with a discussion of this topic. That passion points to our critical need to understand the truth regarding whether or not God has predetermined who will go to heaven and who will go to hell.
Also, the question of whether or not God has planned out each person's life affects us. Does God have a plan for your life? Does a blueprint exist for your future? Did God predetermine whether or not you would get married, and to whom? Did God plan whether you would be wealthy or poor, happy or sad? If God does plan your life, does He do so in minute detail or in general themes? If God has a plan for your life, are you able to alter that plan? This topic directly influences people concerning how they live their lives [AMEN! - me]. As Christians, we must seek God to accurately portray the LORD to others. For any misrepresentation of God will dishonor Him and perhaps bring harm to those misled.
I believe many people have misrepresented God - even if unintentionally - and have brought great harm to unmarried believers through theological error.
I think you would enjoy reading a fascinating debate on this topic that took place at TheologyOnline.com between Enyart and Dr. Samuel Lamerson, a professor at Knox Theological Seminary: link.
In observing this discussion for some time, I've perceived that most of those involved are from a Reformed background. I'm aware that my analysis strikes at the heart of Reformed/Calvinist theology. For this reason, I was hesitant to voice my opinion. I know how contentious the subject of Predestination and Free Will is, and how defensive – and downright hostile – fellow believers can get when their most cherished doctrinal beliefs are challenged.
But because I felt like the current analysis of this issue, though accurate in many ways, wasn't quite getting at the heart of the matter, nor identifying what I believe is the root cause of all the confusion and false teaching about singleness, I decided it was worth offering my two cents. I guess I'm asking you and your readers to "rethink" a few more things.
I want to thank you for encouraging singles to be more intentional about pursuing marriage and family. Of all the obstacles Christian singles must dodge in their efforts to get married, hopefully we can soon remove bad theology as a wholly unnecessary one.
Thank you for your time.
In Christ,
Paul
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 12:36:35 AM
|
|
|
miasma
Posts: 5050
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
I do believe you may have set the Longest Post Ever record.
I have not read the book in question.
I skimmed the reply in question. Inaccurate historical "facts" presented, plus other...shall I say, less than logical/reasonable points of discussion, contributing to the overall glazing-over of my eyes...
Not because it was long, mind you, but because it just seemed the ol' reshash singles stuff.
quote:
I want to thank you for encouraging singles to be more intentional about pursuing marriage and family.
I did pick up on this sentence.
If you are not married, that is OK. Be who you are. Ignore the sentence I have quoted. Non-married men and women are every last bit as wonderful, important, meaningful, and worthwhile as those who have found someone they decided to commit marriage vows to.
_____________________________
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. ~Aesop
It is not in the nature of politics that the best men should be elected. The best men do not want to govern their fellowmen. ~George E. MacDonald
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 1:50:52 AM
|
|
|
LabGuy
Posts: 3195
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
Status: offline
|
Hi,
That is one long post, but some interesting stuff. Reminds me of some of the discussion in a thread over in the FaithWalk forum entitled "Soul Mates". Just a couple quick points:
I don't think you can just dismiss predestination. It is clearly taught in the Bible (Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5). But it just as clearly teaches we are accountable for our actions (Romans 14:12) - in other words, free will. Therefore, despite the apparent contradiction, both must be true. I don't understand how they reconcile, but I trust that God does. (After you've studied quantum physics, you get used to contradictory things being true simultaneously. See Schroedinger's Cat. And yes I'm weird for using science and math analogies, but it does help me better wrap my brain around spiritual truth!)
I do believe it is all right to actively seek a mate. Isaac and Rebekah got together because Abraham's servant went looking. BUT he depended on God's leading, and it's clear she was God's choice for Isaac. (See Genesis 24.)
But I don't buy the "soul mate" line. God will give us a mate (or not) as it suits His purposes. And one of His main purposes is to conform us to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29 again). NOT necessarily give us a happy marriage. I do think that if we're seeking God's will and cooperating with the process, then the prospects are better for a good marriage. But it all goes back to His larger purposes being accomplished.
quote:
Though this woman, who was past forty, deeply wanted to be married, she greatly feared getting her own will mixed up with God's in the matter.
I confess I've had this fear. After all, the heart is deceitful above all things, and choosing one's own will over God's frequently leads to disaster. Here's my current thought on that though - God is bigger than our ability to mess up. If we maintain an attitude of submission to His will, seek Godly counsel, etc. I believe He'll protect us from ourselves.
quote:
If you are not married, that is OK. Be who you are. Ignore the sentence I have quoted. Non-married men and women are every last bit as wonderful, important, meaningful, and worthwhile as those who have found someone they decided to commit marriage vows to.
Agreed. It's okay to be single, and it's okay to desire marriage (as long as you're realistic about what it means).
-Robb
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 12:22:46 PM
|
|
|
John_O
Posts: 7670
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: miasma
quote:
I want to thank you for encouraging singles to be more intentional about pursuing marriage and family.
I did pick up on this sentence.
If you are not married, that is OK. Be who you are. Ignore the sentence I have quoted. Non-married men and women are every last bit as wonderful, important, meaningful, and worthwhile as those who have found someone they decided to commit marriage vows to.
I didn't see his post as saying that it was not OK to be single. I read the whole thing as saying, "If you desire to be married, get off your duff and do something about it."
I agree with him. For those who want to be married there are countless people who would be good matches. We just have to find one and agree to become good matches for each other.
_____________________________
Resistance is futile (if less than .25 ohms)
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 12:39:13 PM
|
|
|
John_O
Posts: 7670
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
I don't think you can just dismiss predestination. It is clearly taught in the Bible (Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5). But it just as clearly teaches we are accountable for our actions (Romans 14:12) - in other words, free will. Therefore, despite the apparent contradiction, both must be true. I don't understand how they reconcile, but I trust that God does. (After you've studied quantum physics, you get used to contradictory things being true simultaneously. See Schroedinger's Cat. And yes I'm weird for using science and math analogies, but it does help me better wrap my brain around spiritual truth!)
All people are predestined to be saved (John 12:32 tells us that Jesus draws all men to himself also see 2 Peter 3:9). It's just that many people fight against their destiny and refuse to be saved.
quote:
But I don't buy the "soul mate" line. God will give us a mate (or not) as it suits His purposes.
These are two somewhat contradictory sentences. If God will give us a mate then she'd be perfect for us (hence our soul mate). Why would He give us less than the best? If there is no such thing as a soulmate then God wouldn't give us something that wasn't perfect for us.
There is no such thing as a soulmate. Meaning one person who matches us perfectly. We become the soulmate to our spouse when we get married. We just need to grind our rough edges off with each other until we fit perfectly.
God will bring us to a mate, but He is not going to drop someone in our lap. We have a responsibility to look (or be available in the ladies case) and do our part in the process. We are not babies to be carried about and placed where he wants us, we are to be soldiers following his orders to go where he wants us to be. (Subtle but important difference).
quote:
quote:
Though this woman, who was past forty, deeply wanted to be married, she greatly feared getting her own will mixed up with God's in the matter.
I confess I've had this fear. After all, the heart is deceitful above all things, and choosing one's own will over God's frequently leads to disaster. Here's my current thought on that though - God is bigger than our ability to mess up. If we maintain an attitude of submission to His will, seek Godly counsel, etc. I believe He'll protect us from ourselves.
He's already given us the means to correct the situation if we get ahead of him and marry someone who is not quite right for us.... Work hard and become right for each other. It's all laid out in his word.
quote:
Agreed. It's okay to be single, and it's okay to desire marriage (as long as you're realistic about what it means).
Exactly correct.
_____________________________
Resistance is futile (if less than .25 ohms)
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 1:25:39 PM
|
|
|
derek_from_canada
Posts: 303
Joined: 7/28/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
For those who want to be married there are countless people who would be good matches. We just have to find one and agree to become good matches for each other.
... agree to become good matches...
That is excellent wording..
You mean we don't have to be perfect matches before agreeing? SHOCKING! you mean we don't have to be soul mates and have it all figured out before? Incredible!
We just hvae to agree (commit) to become (transform) into the best marriage partners we can be for each other.
That would mean almost anyone could be a good marriage partner, it's not about the match, its about the COMMITMENT to work on the match.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 2:08:07 PM
|
|
|
LabGuy
Posts: 3195
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
But I don't buy the "soul mate" line. God will give us a mate (or not) as it suits His purposes.
These are two somewhat contradictory sentences. If God will give us a mate then she'd be perfect for us (hence our soul mate). Why would He give us less than the best? If there is no such thing as a soulmate then God wouldn't give us something that wasn't perfect for us.
There is no such thing as a soulmate. Meaning one person who matches us perfectly. We become the soulmate to our spouse when we get married. We just need to grind our rough edges off with each other until we fit perfectly.
I think we agree, but I wasn't expressing myself clearly. (Sorry!) I did mean that I don't believe the "perfect match somewhere out there that you have to find" definition of soulmate. If we do find someone to marry, I agree completely that what you describe is how it's supposed to work. (And I certainly defer to your experience!) But my point was that from God's perspective marriage is not an end in itself, but it (or singleness) serves His larger purposes for us. Which may include areas of conflict in a marriage, or perhaps prolonged singleness instead. (God has been gracious and allowed me to see how the latter has really been a good thing for me - I really needed a lot of work. Still dunno if I'm done enough yet, but I'm hopeful!)
quote:
God will bring us to a mate, but He is not going to drop someone in our lap. We have a responsibility to look (or be available in the ladies case) and do our part in the process. We are not babies to be carried about and placed where he wants us, we are to be soldiers following his orders to go where he wants us to be. (Subtle but important difference).
Agreed. Throughout the Bible God's blessing almost always requires a step in faith and/or obedience first. The Jordan parted only after the priests bearing the Ark stepped into the water. Naaman (sp?) was healed of his leprosy only when he followed Elisha's instructions. When Jesus healed the man with the withered hand, he told him to "stretch forth thine hand" - he was healed as he obeyed. The examples abound!
I'm working on the stepping out in faith part. Baby steps so far, but it's something!
-Robb
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 2:51:49 PM
|
|
|
John_O
Posts: 7670
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
But my point was that from God's perspective marriage is not an end in itself, but it (or singleness) serves His larger purposes for us. Which may include areas of conflict in a marriage, or perhaps prolonged singleness instead.
Exactly correct. A wife is called a helpmeet partially because she is to help you fulfill your calling (and you help her fulfill hers)
_____________________________
Resistance is futile (if less than .25 ohms)
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 3:57:32 PM
|
|
|
embracing_sonship
Posts: 81
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
|
Good stuff, I love this post. I remember a meeting we had at our church about Christian relationships. It was for single and married people, and was basically an open discussion about God's purpose in relationships...mainly between a man and woman. One married couple asked the question as to whether God chooses our spouse or not. I knew them very closely, and I already knew their stance. They had an awesome testimony about how God had led them together, and the miraculous signs He used to do so. But the pastors answered with their belief that God does not choose our spouse. The couple who asked the question were obviously crushed by that answer, and I wonder if they ever recovered. It seemed to be a very strong view they held, and I think it really hurt them to hear such an answer from their pastors.
What I think God wanted to say to all of us in that meeting is that His will is different in everybody's lives. I mean, if God said to me, go marry so and so, and I had faith and believed it was true, but she didn't, then what? Does this woman really hold the power to go against God's "predestined" will? I don't think so. Some may say that God would never tell us to marry somebody who would say no, but I think that goes against the notion of free will. I think this couple in question didn't realize that it was a choice they made to love each other and to adhere to God's rules of marriage.
Free will I believe is the whole basis of the creation of earth and humans. God didn't want to create robots that loved Him because He said so. He wanted to create a species that would love Him for who He was. I like to look at it this way. There are all these luxuries, counterfeit affections, lustful things that are right before us to choose. They are easy to see, and good to our senses. But God is looking for people who love Him so much, they are willing to reject the things that are temporary, and accept Him for what He has promised us.
I like to think love between humans is the same. We shouldn't be forced to love somebody, we choose to love somebody. In that sense, it is a Godly type of love. While I do agree with the OP, I also agree with other posters that there is a fear, a Godly fear, that I allow my own evil desires overcome God's will. Sometimes I am more eager to find myself a wife, than I am to prepare myself to become a good husband. And being human, I tend to be blind to such situations, and need God to override some of my emotions. Sometimes it results in confusion and hurt, but in the end, I become a better person.
_____________________________
''Any time you have an opportunity to make a difference
in this world and you don't, then you are wasting your
time on Earth.'' - Roberto Clemente
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 4:01:20 PM
|
|
|
iDOworship
Posts: 62
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: TN by way of MI
Status: offline
|
Wow! This is the most exhaustive discussion I've seen on this topic!
I've been researching the whole matter myself over the past few yrs but had a lot gaps in my premise and kept getting stuck trying to prove the very point this post has made. I will have to get the book suggested, I've never read it.
I must admit, the "fear factor" of being outside the will of God is huge for singles. I have worked in singles ministries off and on for the past 10 yrs and it's the same thing we hear over and over about the "gift" of singleness and God having someone just right for you "pre-selected."
It's very unhealthy. BUT everyone (single) stay encouraged, I am encountering churches that are now speaking to singles about being prepared for marriage vs "just be content in your singleness." They are opening up about the challenges of marriage and seek to prepare those of us desiring it for what is to come. I attend a church now that does not speak against the desire but encourages the pursuit of a mate. In the same message, they speak towards areas of our personal, emotional, spiritual lives to focus on improving that will better position us for marriage with it comes. It is a very healthy environment and I'm glad to have finally found one.
_____________________________
The Kingdom of God is nigh you, even in your heart!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 4:30:25 PM
|
|
|
hotsaucygma
Posts: 2883
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
quote:
Yes, everything meant for us is in God's will, but the Lord never said "sitteth back on thine tushy and I will drop wonderous things in thine lap."
HAHAHA! Good thing I wasn't drinking anything or it would have ended up all over my monitor. Funniest thing I've read all week! 
-Robb
Hmm, yes this made me laugh too, but so did John O's thinking that "We are not babies to be carried about and placed where he wants us, we are to be soldiers following his orders to go where he wants us to be. " as a subtle but important difference!! LOL, the difference between babies and soldiers = subtle???  Makes me shudder to imagine what he thinks is a "big" difference... 
As for the original post, I agree that there are probably several people out there that could make a good mate for each of us- not just "one". Once we have decided which "one" (hopefully with much prayer and listening to the Lord because I do think he leads us, but doesn't "pick out" "the" one) then we have to forsake all others and be the best wife/husband we can be for the one we chose. I remember a Pastor one time saying "It doesn't matter if there is someone that would be a "better" husband for my wife, she has me. And I have her. It doesn't matter who else is "out there" at all!"
It seems to me that, as in so many things, we take a "good" idea and make it into something it was never intended to be. What I mean is that it is good to seek the Lord's "will" in choosing a mate, or perhaps it's better to say his approval or acceptence of the mate you are considering, but it's taking it too far to think the Lord will somehow place this person at the alter and lead you down the isle without you playing any part in this happening. Whether we are babies or soldiers, we are not puppets that He just pulls the strings on.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 5:56:14 PM
|
|
|
shemaromans
Posts: 3852
Status: offline
|
Being content and being proactive are not mutually exclusive.
I intend to avoid entering a theological discussion on the topic but will briefly assert that Predestination and Free Will are not mutually exclusive either. It really depends upon how you define them and in what context you apply them.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/17/2007 6:43:08 PM
|
|
|
adoration
Posts: 396
Joined: 7/1/2005
Status: offline
|
Interesting because this kind of teaching is definitely NOT happening in my sunday school class.
The last two weeks the wife of the leader gets up and helps close the class in prayer by praying a blessing over us.
Two weeks in a row now, it's been.
"Thank you Lord for quickly bringing the right godly men and women into the lives of each of the singles here...." (Most of the class is married except for me, my siblings, their daughter, 2 other guys and one of my friends)
Let's just say they have one daughter married with grand baby on the way and one left to go, and they claim, they've prayed that over their kids since they were young. I am not in a hurry, but I thought it was a bit interesting how it is "assumed" and encouraged subtly, albeit with wisdom.
Maybe if we ended every church service with that as a closing prayer along with the alter call there would be a lot more grand babies around. 
I agree that typically though life there are options, and God's will for us is large enough to capture those options - which is a bit much for me to get my head around. I would rather have it cut and dry on a piece of rye with mayo. This is God's BEST, it doesn't get any BETTER than salami. BUT I'll give God a chance and say, maybe there is a combination of things - He works His will in us to do His good pleasure and those that roll their works onto Him will have their thoughts line up with His and it establishes the plans made. (Sorry bad paraphrase)
I don't know that God drops things into our laps, but maybe it's a bit higher than that, He drops things into our hearts, and with obedience they become a reality. Learning how to receive it takes practice.
Marriage isn't the highest and greatest thing one does in their life time, it is defiantly one of the few things that can alter the greatest and highest things we are purposed to do for God. You notice God didn't make Eve to be the PERFECT mate for Adam, she was suitable. 
_____________________________
Dancing in my Father's arms.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 10/23/2007 5:37:58 PM
|
|
|
2Tim215
Posts: 8
Joined: 10/16/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Paul, I think you're spot on. Good analysis!
Thanks, Elena. :-)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 7/15/2008 7:23:14 PM
|
|
|
2Tim215
Posts: 8
Joined: 10/16/2007
Status: offline
|
I'd like to pass along a few links that are related to my original post. I encourage everyone who is interested in this subject to check them out.
Podcasts (~ 30 min. each):
Podcast #1 -- God said of Abraham, "Now I know..."
Podcast #2 -- God is free, and able, to change the future, and thus, the future is not settled, but open!
Also, in my OP I recommended a debate on the subject "Does God Know Your Entire Future?" Since it is a long debate (but well worth the read for those interested), I'd like to link to the three most important posts of the debate:
Post #1 -- God’s Attributes
Post #2 -- Exhaustive Foreknowledge comes from Greek Philosophy
Post #3 -- Behold thy God
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 7/15/2008 7:45:22 PM
|
|
|
ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 2008
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
Lots of good stuff having been said here, I feel the need (as usual) to muddy the waters by making my own succinct comment. Yes, folks, I will, for once keep it succinct.
If we are predestined (as I believe we are) then it's silly to sit around trying to make it hard for God to make His will clear.
...we can't mess up His will anyhow!
Might as well be out looking as not.
besiderself
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 7/15/2008 7:53:55 PM
|
|
|
Prairiehiker
Posts: 1401
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
|
I'll check them out later when I have a chance. I love listening/reading those things, esp anything to do with theology/apologetics.
_____________________________
________________________________
Money in the bank may be nice, but it will never beat sunrise from a sleeping bag in the mountains. " - climbhard511
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
A+ 
RE: Getting serious...about bad theology. - 
