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Is Belief in God Logical? - 4/28/2008 12:28:09 AM
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txparent
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In the past year or so I've done a good bit of personal study because I began to ask myself whether it was logical to believe in a God or not. Long story short, the conclusion I came to was a resounding "YES". And I have to thank several excellent books for helping me along the way. These include:
1. What's So Great About Christianity by Dinesh D'Souza
2. There Is A God by Anthony Flew
3. The Language of God by Francis Collins
4. Mere Christianity and The Problem of Pain by CS Lewis (of course)
5. The Case for Christ and The Case For a Creator by Lee Stroebel
The scientific and philosophic ideas I learned about pointed me resoundingly toward belief in a true, living and loving God. I grew up believing in God, largely because my parents taught me to do so. But I have no interest in a faith that I can't have confidence in.
I thought I'd write this to encourage anyone who has had any doubts about the existence of God. Sure, we're raised to believe the Bible, and we're taught to believe in God. But when people present us with logical arguments to the contrary, how do we answer them? Personally, I got tired of just saying "I believe what the Bible tells me" without any logical framework to support that conclusion. And I certainly wasn't in a position to reach out to people struggling with their own faith. Honestly, how do you start quoting scripture to someone who isn't convinced that the Bible is God's word, or even that there is a God?
So I started my search and I'm still plodding along. I have quite a few more books on my shelves I'm looking forward to going through. The ones I list above have gotten me started and I've been very encouraged with the logic and scientific support that I see to confirm my belief in God.
Hopefully, those of you on a similar quest will find this short list helpful, and perhaps you can even add some of the additional books that helped you along your own road of discovery. If so, I'd love to hear about them.
S
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 4/28/2008 3:01:06 AM
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abraxas
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I suspect that as we work our way back to our core beliefs/assumptions, we find it more and more difficult to parse them out through logic. Logic is one aspect of a human, but we're also emotional, intuitive, etc.
If we go on assumptions that we accept to be true, then we can assess what follows in logical terms. If we accept that the sun can burn our skin, and that burning our skin is not in our interest, then a logical conclusion would be to avoid the sun. If we accept that we can walk on air, then there's nothing illogical about stepping off the balcony.
Most people don't accept such disastrous assumptions as that second one, but there is a bit of subjectivity to the core assumptions we do have, and so what might seem logical to one person might seem illogical to another, and vice-versa. This is why believers and non-believers are so good at talking past each other! (Not to mention Calvinists/Arminians, Catholics/Protestants, OEC/YEC....)
Thanks for that list. The Anthony Flew one is one I've been hoping to get ahold of for a while. You may have noticed the thread I started where I say I don't care if there is a God or not. That is true, and it has helped me look at these issues with much less agitation.
Anyway here is a link to a an interview with John Ralston Saul. He favors a wider approach than reason alone offers, and at the very least it's interesting as another person's take.
http://www.scottlondon.com/interviews/saul.html
< Message edited by abraxas -- 4/28/2008 3:08:13 AM >
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 4/28/2008 5:57:49 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Is belief in God logical? About as logical as believing that the map has a cartographer. Or that the car has a factory. I could go on, but I think you understand where my answers come from. Effect means there was a cause.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 4/28/2008 9:34:42 AM
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txparent
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Abraxas,
I did read your other thread and found it very interesting. I thought instead of getting lost in the mix on that one, I'd start this 2nd one instead. I'll check out the link you describe and I would recommend this additional link for you:
http://www.isi.org/lectures/flvplayer/lectureplayer.aspx?file=v000187_cicero_102207.flv
It's a debate between Christopher Hitchens and Dinesh D'Souza about the existence and the goodness of God. Quite compelling to watch.
As for your thoughts about proving our presumptions, I agree with you completely. If we start with a belief and take steps to try and prove that we're right, that is far different than looking at the data dispassionately. Consider, for example, the hysteria around Global Warming. There's no evidence to support it and yet people are using any anecdotal data they stumble upon (It's hot today...it must be Global Warming) to shore up their pre-existing belief that we're causing our planet to heat up.
So when I began my study I made a decision that I wouldn't pre-suppose anything. I took the position that Anthony Flew describes in his book. He said he couldn't believe in a God unless he could find enough evidence to justify such a belief. So far, the evidence I've come across has led me toward belief.
If you'd like, I'll be happy to enumerate some of the things I've discovered which have given weight (in my opinion) to the argument that there is a God. But in short, one of the better ones is what FurGodWurLivin brushed on...for every effect, there must be a cause. Kant stated this most eloquently.
So if everything must have a cause, and the universe has a beginning (the Big Bang), then something must have caused it. To me, this is an excellent place to begin when considering the question of whether there is a God.
I look forward to your reply.
S
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 4/28/2008 11:34:26 AM
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Jhud
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It's interesting the more I read about the application of Christian thought in various spheres of thought, the more I realize how consistently logical it is; that it is a worldview that agrees across spectrums and allows for cohesive thoguht about life.
Some other authors I highly recommend in this vein are Alvin Platinga and William Lane Craig.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 4/28/2008 11:53:04 AM
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mvic
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When txparent asks: is belief in God logical? The obvious answer is NO. To be logical one must subject one's theory to all the scientific tests at one's disposal.
Yet, txparent, like me, reached the conclusion that God exists. I can't quite explain how it happened with me. Was it reading? Perhaps. Was it up-bringing? Maybe. I think at the end of the day I proved it to myself that He exists - or maybe He proved it to me. It was a blind step into Faith. To believe the illogical.
FurGodWurLivin is correct: For every cause there is an effect. It didn't all start with a Big Bang, explosion, implosion or whatever. In my mind, there must have been a God who made it all happen.
Yet there are those who still believe it was just a Big Bang; and when we die, we die. That's it. The end. Finito.
That's because they use logic. And Christians use Faith.
< Message edited by mvic -- 4/28/2008 1:25:16 PM >
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 4/28/2008 12:06:02 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
When txparent asks: is belief in God logical? The obvious answer is NO. To be logical one must subject one's theory to all the scientific tests at one's disposal.
Well, no, logic and science aren't the same thing.
And faith and logic aren't opposite things.
One can believe something by faith, and have that belief be logically consistent with one's other means of knowing (indeed, one's beliefs should be, however one acquires them, logically consistent).
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 4/28/2008 12:56:04 PM
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txparent
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Two thoughts, MVIC...
First, I completely agree with you that it's impossible to believe in God based solely on logic. In fact, there are schools of philosophical thought that would argue that nothing can be proven without faith. To believe that I'm typing this right now requires me to have faith that my senses aren't lying to me. The only thing we can know absolutely is that we exist "I think, therefore I am". And yet, that only allows us to prove that we exist at the exact moment of that statement. Beyond that, nothing can be ABSOLUTELY proven. Having said that, I don't believe in a universe where there is no objective reality. I agree that faith is a component, to one degree or another, in everything we do. But when considering where belief in God is logical, it's a bit like considering whether belief in Napoleon is logical. We can never know for sure that he existed because we never met him. But we can analyze the facts at our disposal and come up with a conclusion. The facts available to us support the idea that there was a Napoleon, and science, philosophy, archaeology and history seem to support the notion that there is a God. Thus, for me, it's logical to believe in God.
Second, for those who believe that nothing caused the Big Bang, I would say that until the Big Bang was proven some 30 years ago, athiests believed that the universe was eternal. In fact, the argument that it was eternal was their primary response to folks who believe in a Creation. Using the logic of Emmanuel Kant that for every effect their must be a cause, there is simply no way to escape the idea that the Big Bang was an effect with a cause behind it. Anyone who avoids that isn't responding logically...they're refusing to use logic altogether. This is why so many scientists have started trying to invent and prove an infinite number of alternate universes, an expanding universe that collapses and starts over again and again eternally, etc. These theories have no proof or evidence to support them at all, and yet they are furiously scrambling to invent an alternate explanation to answer the question "what created the Big Bang?"
For me, it takes FAR more faith to be an athiest than it does to believe in a Creator. And when I say that, I am not even making a claim for the Christian version of God. I believe in the Christian God, but that's a whole different discussion...in that case, we have to investigate whether God chose to reveal himself to us, and how he might have done so. That gets beyond the whole "is there a Creator" discussion. Anthony Flew, for example, believes in a Creator but that does't pre-suppose thathe believes the Christian story of who God is.
Does that make sense?
S
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 4/28/2008 1:31:38 PM
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mvic
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Thanx for your reply txparent.
When I see all the stars shining at night, (and these are only a few compared to the number that really exist), when I see the miracle of life on earth, the plants, animals etc ... etc ... I find it really difficult to believe they all just happened by accident - call it Big Bang, evolution or whatever. I believe (or want to believe perhaps) that there must have been some omnipotent power who created it all. I call Him God. It is easier to believe in a Creator God than to believe it all just happened one day far off.
At this point the atheist might ask me: OK then, who created God? And that's where I rely on Faith for my answer.
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 5/4/2008 11:40:17 AM
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abraxas
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That book does look interesting. I can't afford to order it (live overseas) but perhaps in the future. There was a reader's comment similar to my earlier post:
".... The result will be extremely attractive to certain Christian listeners. However, listeners who do not share the authors philosophical premises may find their reasoning and evidence hard to follow. As a result, the book may not succeed at one of its stated purposes--answering arguments against belief in God."
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 5/4/2008 11:55:26 AM
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abraxas
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Hi txparent,
Sorry for the late reply. I watched the D'Souza/Hitchens debate and thought it was pretty good. D'Souza is a much classier debater (Hitchens hijacks a question to basically wedge in another argument (European Fascism and Catholic complicity especially), and he had trouble refraining from commenting while D'Souza was giving his opening arguments. Maybe that's just good old spirited debate? Anyway, D'Souza's composure in spite it all was commendable.
That aside I thought they both made good points along the way, but again I go back to my earlier suggestion that the underlying assumptions of atheists/agnostics vs. theists are so different that they just can't see eye to eye. Not that that's the only obstacle to meaningful discussion, but I say it's a big one.
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 5/6/2008 4:21:37 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: txparent
For me, it takes FAR more faith to be an athiest than it does to believe in a Creator.
Your so correct in making the above statement. It`s all about faith either way, even though I find it a lot more logical to base my faith in the teachings of the Bible than the mere assumptions that atheists love to paddle. The big difference between those who believe and those who do not believe is that the unbeliever wants prove that God exists before they will believe. However in order to become a believer we most first accept God`s plan of salvation by faith and then the facts of the existence of God will become clear proven fact. As we grow in our faith and see God at work in our life giving us peace with God and transforming our lives, our faith in the true facts of God`s existence become a reality. It`s always faith before facts instead of facts before faith.
A book I just finished reading on seeking purpose, meaning and truth in your life is called "The Good Life" by former Richard Nixon tough guy Charles Colson. Mr. Colson`s change in his life is evidence of a greater power at work in his life. This is a great book to read for those who are searching for the truth.
_____________________________
"The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever." Isa. 40:8 Greetings- Frankman
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 5/20/2008 4:37:44 PM
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hellohellohi
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This is from a Christian perspective:
Now, logic would be what follows (and how it follows) from a set of assumptions or axioms? Logic is something you do with symbols! It's what a computer can do using binary "decision" gates. (hmm, I wish I knew a bit more of the electrical engineering behind that.)
So the question is, does Jesus follow from a set of axioms?
Of course, he said He is the alpha and omega. So it sounds like he is not only the axiom but the subsequent! Or perhaps, as a system, Christianity IS logically circular, and as Christians, we may have to come to realize that being guilty of the accusation cried out across classrooms and internets is not a bad thing! (It's just what it is  ). I am!!!!
Now, suppose we started with the axiom of God and love and some other stuff...
The FIRST PRINCIPLE i would like to start with! is sin. SPECIFICALLY, once I have found myself to be UNRELIABLE, untrustworthy, perhaps mean, what now? (Perhaps, one could even start earlier, at a prior position of, "What do you want to do?... Why?(reply)...Why?... e.g.: the ORIGINAL Socratic method, i.e. of Socrates, the doubter, the ignorant (and in his honesty, the most wise) one.)
If one is to find that the next premise one must consider -- and that is not to say that it follows from sin but rather it is THE ONLY WAY OUT -- is Jesus... then we have discovered what Jesus is, logically, what He represents in the structure of human logic and criteria . He is the Non-Sequitur! Observe: you are a sinner, ergo Jesus! lol :)
If you don't believe me or "know Jesus" as it is said, in the interest of intellectual consideration, suspend disbelief for a moment, and posit what I MUST be talking about... God come to earth to witness human suffering (self-made suffering I might add  ). A perfect, sinless individual! To say that God sent, well, Himself, His Son, to earth to suffer for and ALONGSIDE our (admittedly) helpless, probably pitiful but likely dserved (because it is self-made) suffering. Hmm. Good story, yes, but logical? Flowing from premise to premise through mathematical laws? Hardly!
You are a sinner, ergo Jesus! I think that's funny!
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 5/20/2008 7:42:32 PM
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bob97
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I don’t know if believing in God is logical but it sure does come naturally. It’s something that I don’t even have to think about…God is just there in my heart. 
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 5/20/2008 8:53:11 PM
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bzirk
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txparent,
You ought to throw a little Dallas Willard into your reading lists.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 5/21/2008 7:49:14 AM
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drmark
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quote:
At this point the atheist might ask me: OK then, who created God? And that's where I rely on Faith for my answer. At this point, the atheist is grasping at straws because s/he knows full well that every effect must have a cause greater than the effect. Logically then, all time was the effect of the Eternal Cause, all space was the effect of the Infinite Cause, and all matter/energy was the effect of the Omnipotent Cause. Thus, belief in Transcendent God is most logical (as Spock would say!)
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 5/21/2008 10:00:32 AM
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hellohellohi
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cool, yeah drmark!
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 5/21/2008 12:51:52 PM
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MusicianDad
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
At this point the atheist might ask me: OK then, who created God? And that's where I rely on Faith for my answer. At this point, the atheist is grasping at straws because s/he knows full well that every effect must have a cause greater than the effect. Logically then, all time was the effect of the Eternal Cause, all space was the effect of the Infinite Cause, and all matter/energy was the effect of the Omnipotent Cause. Thus, belief in Transcendent God is most logical (as Spock would say!)
Every beginning has a beginner. Since God had no beginning, he needs no beginner. While it does take faith to believe in God, it doesn't require one to be illogical. The same cannot be said for atheism.
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=EK9opsMo0jg
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 5/26/2008 4:49:09 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: txparent
Hopefully, those of you on a similar quest will find this short list helpful, and perhaps you can even add some of the additional books that helped you along your own road of discovery. If so, I'd love to hear about them.
S
Some time ago I set in a Church service and shared communion with a fellow missionary pilot who just finished writing another book. Being familiar with his story by word of month and knowing the author I decided to read his book. Now this person sacrificed his large American salary in order to go and help some jungle people survive far away. I know some of you would say making this kind of a sacrifice for God is not logical.
When this person came back to America after some time of service he fund out that instead of God blessing him financially he had lost a large part of his investment portfolio due to the claps of the stock market. Yet not without questions, he continued on to believe in God. Then God struck him very hard as his only teen-age daughter suddenly died within hours after returning home from a mission trip due to a ruptured blood vessel in the brain. His response to this was and I quote "As the black cloud of dispair shrouded me, I could feel my faith slipping away." At this low point in his life having faith in God became very illogical to him.  How could a God of love allow all this to happen to His servants who are serving Him so sacrificially? This does not seem logical.
However to make a long story short, there was an old warrior visiting the States from his mission field who was there comforting the author while his daughter was slipping away. Great words of wisdom spoken from God`s Word by this old warrior prevented the author from loosing his faith while God took his daughter home to be with Him in heaven. Now the unusual thing about this old warrior was that this warrior was the same person that speared the authors dad to death and 4 other men in 1956 when the author was only a little boy about 6 years of age. I`ll say no more for I know most of you are familiar with this story.
Here is a story of the Gospel going full circle and back again. It is a story that only God could write. It doesn`t seem logical, but God`s stories never do seem logical. It`s just like the story of God senting His only Son into the world to die for us rebellious sinners who don`t even want Him. That too doesn`t seem logical, yet it is. It too is a story that only God could write.  Will we believe it?
Rom.5:8 "But God demonstrated His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
_____________________________
"The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever." Isa. 40:8 Greetings- Frankman
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 6/6/2008 7:31:15 PM
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john_mark
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if belief in God can be a function of logic, does that mean that the Holy Spirit is not neccesary for belief? is there a relationship between the Holy Spirit and belief, or can belief be simply a function of human logic.
is belief in God seperate from belief in Christ? can one believe in Christ simply thru human logic?
I would understand that the Holy Spirit/God is involved/necessary for belief.
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 6/6/2008 8:03:29 PM
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bzirk
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Excellent point, John Mark.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 6/6/2008 9:14:17 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I would understand that the Holy Spirit/God is involved/necessary for belief. If you are defining "belief in God" as trust and obedience, then absolutely the Holy Spirit is required. However, intellectual assent to a transcendent uncaused First Cause is emminently achievable by human reason alone. After all, even the demons believe there is but one God, and they tremble!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 6/6/2008 9:43:03 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I would understand that the Holy Spirit/God is involved/necessary for belief. If you are defining "belief in God" as trust and obedience, then absolutely the Holy Spirit is required. However, intellectual assent to a transcendent uncaused First Cause is emminently achievable by human reason alone. After all, even the demons believe there is but one God, and they tremble!
as i read romans 1, i understand it to mean that all people are born with the knowledge of God. they know His eternal power and divine nature. but they reject/suppress that knowledge and their foolish hearts are darkened.
are you saying that logic will restore that knowledge and remove the darkness from thier hearts?
the demons tremble based on their knowledge, would a knowledge based on logic prevoke a similar reaction in man? or would it take an experiential knowledge to provoke a reaction?
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RE: Is Belief in God Logical? - 6/6/2008 10:10:48 PM
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NealIRC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
At this point the atheist might ask me: OK then, who created God? And that's where I rely on Faith for my answer.
The argument is if something exists, who created it?
Or even yet, how did it get created.
The answer is it is a mystery on how stuff exists. It is a mystery how to create or destroy matter.
It's okay to not know things. Really.
We can take this argument another step forward and ask about all matter that exists - that is, the universe.
How did the universe get created?
Same thing, we (science) still don't have the answer.
A counter-argument, of course, is to say God created it. Saying God created the universe doesn't help solve our mystery at all. This of course, splits our mystery into 2. To say God created the universe, is apparently not an explanation. It becomes 2 mysteries. If we establish that God created the universe, then it is a mystery on how he created it, and how God's existence came to be.
For splitting a mystery into 2 mysteries - that is not an explanation.
For saying that 1 part of the universe created another part of the universe, is still not an explanation.
In fact, a lot of mythological nonsense are not explanations.
If this were thousands of years ago, and I asked you what causes the sun to go across the sky, wouldn't a rational answer be "I don't know," rather than "a sun god carries it across the sky on his chariot?"
If I asked you "what causes rain to fall?" wouldn't a rational answer be "I don't know, but we might find out someday" than to say "the rain gods are angry at us."
Note that these things don't actually explain anything. They simply satisfy curiosities. The either temporarily or permanently satisfy curiosities.
Religion/mythology and stuff started when the 1st man was too cowardly and dishonest to say "I don't know."
Just take a look at the Native Americans and ancient Africa.
It's a shame that for centuries, so many statues have been built of Zeus, and the greek mythological gods, even though there was not 1 iota evidence that the Greek gods exist.
Luckily for them, once Christianity came around, Greek mythology and friends died a quick and easy death.
The similar thing applies to creation of matter or the universe.
The honest answer is to say "I don't know." It's a mystery how matter exists. It's okay to not know things. Really.
Certainly I can make the claim that matter exists, and then say I don't know how it got created.
Certainly I can make the claim that God exists, and then say I don't know how it got created.
But what would be the more logical thing to claim - that matter exists, or God exists?
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