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Is G d condemning developers? - 7/16/2008 10:46:27 PM
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Dragonnie
Posts: 256
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: CA
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Our city council loves housing developers that build tract homes, bcz they get $35,000 per house as a building permit fee. Our previously lovely, untouched hills are now covered with the "beige boxes" sitting empty.
Is 5:8 Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!
9 In mine ears said the LORD of hosts, Of a truth many houses shall be desolate, even great and fair, without inhabitant.
i wonder whether this is addressed to developers.
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/17/2008 12:40:38 AM
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mapachito13
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National Geographic just had an article about the wildfires in CA and one of the leaders of the strike brigade referred to the building of homes in the hills as them being built in the "stupid zone". Having been within a few miles of one in 2005 and seeing those in the hills go up and mine in the flatter land just getting a shower of fertilizing ash; I heartily concur with that statement!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/17/2008 10:42:01 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2596
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Our city council loves housing developers that build tract homes, bcz they get $35,000 per house as a building permit fee. Our previously lovely, untouched hills are now covered with the "beige boxes" sitting empty.
And what was this land doing before the developers built homes on the site. During the building process builders bought material and employed people adding to the regions economy. Now that people have moved into the homes they have shelter from the storm and are paying taxes.
But in most places, libs are on the city council and waste the taxpayers money, Here in Raleigh. we have a mayor/city council who spent one milllion dollars on a reflective mirror for the outside of the new convention center
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/17/2008 10:55:55 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2596
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From: Raleigh, NC
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Developers get a bad rap. Some deserved most not. My church had its first open meeting in a soon to be condemed shoping mall. It was the first enclosed mall between DC and Atlanta. But over time, it's owners did not reinvest money into the mall, and as newer mall sprung up, it and the surrounding area fell into disrepair.
The developer is a solid Christian and gave his greatly discounted rent until it came time to bulldoze the mall. He flatened the mall and the strip across the street and turned the area into a dense mixed use area.
Because of the tranformation the property values in the area more than trippled in value. Our new building is in the second phase of the development and he helped us get an old building that we retrofitted for our new church. So, not all developers are evil. Remember they invest their own (or a group of other investors) money in hope of making a profit. And, profit is not a dirty word.
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/17/2008 11:16:55 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11173
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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That scripture is not talking about developers. It's talking about the wealthy landowners that build on to their homes so they're bigger and bigger, and they amass land so that they own the whole countryside - buying up others' land or stealing it out from under them all for their own private estate.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/17/2008 11:26:27 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1818
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Developers get a bad rap. Some deserved most not. My church had its first open meeting in a soon to be condemed shoping mall. It was the first enclosed mall between DC and Atlanta. But over time, it's owners did not reinvest money into the mall, and as newer mall sprung up, it and the surrounding area fell into disrepair.
The developer is a solid Christian and gave his greatly discounted rent until it came time to bulldoze the mall. He flatened the mall and the strip across the street and turned the area into a dense mixed use area.
Because of the tranformation the property values in the area more than trippled in value. Our new building is in the second phase of the development and he helped us get an old building that we retrofitted for our new church. So, not all developers are evil. Remember they invest their own (or a group of other investors) money in hope of making a profit. And, profit is not a dirty word.
Well hey! Corrupt court systems, tax collectors, and people who take over poor peoples' homes to plant vineyards all keep people employed, too (all condemned by the Bible)! Therefore, anything that creates jobs must be justified...
How about we prosecute mortgage brokers who commit fraud! That creates jobs, too!
Profit isn't a dirty word, but it generally turns bad when the Bible perceives it as coming at the expense of honest people. Isaiah 5 is pretty clear that it's targeting the rich- particularly those who perpetrate injustice. I guess I will end with the following verse from Isaiah 5:
quote:
Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.
-Isaiah 5:20
It seems very apparent that the US has very similar problems today to what Israel had when Isaiah wrote this.
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/17/2008 11:28:11 PM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
That scripture is not talking about developers. It's talking about the wealthy landowners that build on to their homes so they're bigger and bigger, and they amass land so that they own the whole countryside - buying up others' land or stealing it out from under them all for their own private estate.
Do you disagree with the fact that this has essentially been the effect of the past four years?
Instead of wealthy landowners, we have corrupt sub-prime mortgage brokers claiming to offer 1.5% interest on home loans to unsuspecting borrowers.
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/17/2008 11:32:44 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2322
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Well hey! Corrupt court systems, tax collectors, and people who take over poor peoples' homes to plant vineyards all keep people employed, too (all condemned by the Bible)! Therefore, anything that creates jobs must be justified...
How about we prosecute mortgage brokers who commit fraud! That creates jobs, too!
Profit isn't a dirty word, but it generally turns bad when the Bible perceives it as coming at the expense of honest people. Isaiah 5 is pretty clear that it's targeting the rich- particularly those who perpetrate injustice.
To colliefan's defence this is what I took her to mean too! And corrupt businessmen make money but in the long run it costs people more in material losses. Not to mention their spiritual losses as well!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/17/2008 11:37:12 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 750
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
That scripture is not talking about developers. It's talking about the wealthy landowners that build on to their homes so they're bigger and bigger, and they amass land so that they own the whole countryside - buying up others' land or stealing it out from under them all for their own private estate.
Do you disagree with the fact that this has essentially been the effect of the past four years?
Instead of wealthy landowners, we have corrupt sub-prime mortgage brokers claiming to offer 1.5% interest on home loans to unsuspecting borrowers.
Not unsuspecting borrowers, ignorant ones. I'm sorry to say that it shouldn't take a third party to tell someone what they can afford. If I make 40k a year, I don't care what someone says I know I cannot afford a 200k dollar house. A large part of the blame on this one goes to the buyer IMO.
Anyway, as far as developers go, they would not be in business if it weren't for the fact that there is a demand for their services. People like living in "developments". They like the fact that they know there will never be a run-down house next to them depreciating their home.
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 9:47:53 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11173
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
That scripture is not talking about developers. It's talking about the wealthy landowners that build on to their homes so they're bigger and bigger, and they amass land so that they own the whole countryside - buying up others' land or stealing it out from under them all for their own private estate.
Do you disagree with the fact that this has essentially been the effect of the past four years?
Instead of wealthy landowners, we have corrupt sub-prime mortgage brokers claiming to offer 1.5% interest on home loans to unsuspecting borrowers.
I disagree that this Scripture is applicable in this case. There are others about shady business dealers.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 10:43:18 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2322
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Not unsuspecting borrowers, ignorant ones. I'm sorry to say that it shouldn't take a third party to tell someone what they can afford. If I make 40k a year, I don't care what someone says I know I cannot afford a 200k dollar house. A large part of the blame on this one goes to the buyer IMO.
The people who find themselves in the mess of owning more house than they can afford are people that trusted their loan officer to be ethical. If you could afford a nicer house in a nicer neighborhood most people would jump at the opportunity.
The problem was that these unscrupulous lenders did not disclose all the terms and fees and what the payments were going to be in five years (which the lender probably knew they couldn't afford). But let's get their signature on the documents, collect our broker's fees or commissions and move on to the next sucker (ahem) customer!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 10:47:29 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5250
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Folks who find that they cannot afford the load payments they signed up for were just plain dumb to do so.
Please do not try to excuse that dumbness by blaming it on a loan officer.
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 10:56:09 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1818
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Not unsuspecting borrowers, ignorant ones. I'm sorry to say that it shouldn't take a third party to tell someone what they can afford. If I make 40k a year, I don't care what someone says I know I cannot afford a 200k dollar house. A large part of the blame on this one goes to the buyer IMO.
I wouldn't call them ignorant. I would say that getting a mortgage two years ago was sort of like playing a game of "Chairman Mao" or some other game where people made up silly rules. In other words, it's difficult to not get taken advantage of unless you write the contract/rules yourself.
Unless you have a Math PhD, you really shouldn't have to put up with this when you get a mortgage.
quote:
Anyway, as far as developers go, they would not be in business if it weren't for the fact that there is a demand for their services. People like living in "developments". They like the fact that they know there will never be a run-down house next to them depreciating their home.
Personally, I hate developments. It's a bunch of oversized, over-hyped, homogenous homes, and you have to deal with a homeowners association. If the building needs a nice brochure to sell for the price they're asking, I don't want to be paying that price.
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 10:58:29 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2322
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Folks who find that they cannot afford the load payments they signed up for were just plain dumb to do so.
Please do not try to excuse that dumbness by blaming it on a loan officer.
Thanks
RC
Yeah they were dumb to be too trusting! Or would you, if you were a loan officer RC, give someone a loan you knew they wouldn't be able to afford? I'd bet a million dollars you have more ethics than that.
Also why is the FBI investigating Countrywide and IndyMac Bank for fraud?
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 10:59:57 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1818
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Folks who find that they cannot afford the load payments they signed up for were just plain dumb to do so.
Please do not try to excuse that dumbness by blaming it on a loan officer.
Thanks
RC
Most of these people didn't know the loan payments they were signing up for. Remember those ads for 2.4% interest mortgages? Many homeowners thought they'd be paying $2/month for every $1000 borrowed for the life of the mortgage.
If you're a financial professional and sign up for that mortgage, then tsk, tsk. If you're an average homebuyer who got a B in Algebra II back in high school 15 years ago and never took any graduate level courses on contract law, should you really be faulted for making the wrong assumptions about an intentionally misleading mortgage?
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 11:58:02 AM
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colliefan
Posts: 2596
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
Unless you have a Math PhD, you really shouldn't have to put up with this when you get a mortgage.
Doesn't require differential equations or calculus to know the definition of the words ADJUSTABLE RATE. What about "BALOON PAYMENT" if they are that dumb they shouldn't be purchasing a home.
There are natural areas that are prone to natural disasters such as floods, fires, and hurricanes. One should build/buy in these areas at one's own risk and should not be expected to be bailed out by the government should disaster strike.
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 12:52:28 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1199
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From: The Land Of The Burnt Thigh
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I don't know why everyone is trying to blame the housing crash on unscrupulous lenders, heartless banks, moronic homeowners, and diabolical developers when Harry and Nancy have stated clearly that it's Bush's fault.
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 1:02:54 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11173
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
I don't know why everyone is trying to blame the housing crash on unscrupulous lenders, heartless banks, moronic homeowners, and diabolical developers when Harry and Nancy have stated clearly that it's Bush's fault.
<snicker>
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 1:15:30 PM
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NoShow
Posts: 427
Joined: 5/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Unless you have a Math PhD, you really shouldn't have to put up with this when you get a mortgage.
Well it is what it is, so if this is the way you feel, than a lot of people just aren't smart enough to have a mortgage and should be content with renting, until they can pay cash for a place.
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 1:28:45 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1818
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NoShow
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Unless you have a Math PhD, you really shouldn't have to put up with this when you get a mortgage.
Well it is what it is, so if this is the way you feel, than a lot of people just aren't smart enough to have a mortgage and should be content with renting, until they can pay cash for a place.
In all honesty, I would say that roughly 0.5% of the country is smart enough to have a mortgage where even someone as dumb as me can't insert fine print to make the mortgage much worse than they thought it was. (Believe me, I'll bet I could put one past you if the mortgage contract is long enough. I'm sure you could do the same for me.)
The solution is to undo some of the deregulation in the market. There need to be standardized mortgage contracts that every mortgage broker should be required to offer and publicize quotes on, and every mortgage contract needs to include, in an easily identifiable box:
1.) The maximum monthly payment at 5 years and also through the life of the mortgage.
2.) The maximum potential rate charged on the mortgage.
3.) The maximum total out of pocket expense over the life of the mortgage.
4.) A red-letter warning if pre-payment penalties exceed 2%.
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 2:22:05 PM
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mapachito13
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Joined: 10/1/2007
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The lender schmoozes you, builds up your trust in the days preceding the signing shows you their "good faith" estimate of fees (that will be totally different, meaning more, on the day of the signing for some lame reason) and will put so many papers in from of you to sign, initial, etc. that even they get confused. Then months or years later you have found out that some of that unimportant fine print that they pitched to you a certain way has a totally different legal meaning.
Are all loan officers this way? No. They are like any other occupation you have those with unimpeachable ethics, some with none and the majority somewhere in between.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 2:48:08 PM
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NoShow
Posts: 427
Joined: 5/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
The lender schmoozes you, builds up your trust in the days preceding the signing shows you their "good faith" estimate of fees (that will be totally different, meaning more, on the day of the signing for some lame reason) and will put so many papers in from of you to sign, initial, etc. that even they get confused. Then months or years later you have found out that some of that unimportant fine print that they pitched to you a certain way has a totally different legal meaning.
Are all loan officers this way? No. They are like any other occupation you have those with unimpeachable ethics, some with none and the majority somewhere in between.
Personally, I know dozens of people that bought homes in the last few years with one of the crazy loans. Every one of them, when I asked "Didn't the structure of the loan, concern you?" replied with "Yes, but my realtor said it was a good deal."
And I know all realtors aren't like that.
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RE: Is G d condemning developers? - 7/18/2008 3:04:37 PM
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radiorobert
Posts: 45
Joined: 5/6/2005
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If someone offers me a pill I don't recognize, says it's harmless, and I know enough to know that some pills are and some pills aren't, I have a craving for something to take my headache away and this person promises it will do just that...should I automatically do it without thinking first and taking something I'm more familiar with? Even if that means waiting a little bit longer to relieve my headache?
Do you see the problem here?
We have a society that believes people have a 'right' to HAVE certain things just b/c they want them. If they have an urge, or a craving or a desire, it automatically has to be fulfilled. That was never what this country was intended for. ( or many others for that matter) And it definately is not how God has set life up to work.
You only get the privilage of owning a home once you have the means and resources to properly handle it. You have a responsibility to do your homework. ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am absolutely not advocating criminal business practices at all. But the only sure fire way to protect yourself from them is to guard your heart against desires that might lead you to fall victim to them. (gee thats nowhere in scripture is it?  )
These people do not have a right to things just b/c they want them. That mentality is leading them to pursue these bad deals, and then in the process, satan traps them in these schemes. If something sounds to good to be true, it probably is. And, just b/c they live in a tiny apartment and want a nice big home, doesn't mean they deserve it b/c they are somehow oppressed or have been 'done wrong' by the man.
Whatever happened to guarding our hearts against our own fleshly desires??
And you know what else is kind of goofy? Why is it that when someone pursues a desire, in an honest hardworking manner and profits very well from it, certain persons on this board are lighting fast to jump all over it and put them down. But when someone with less income does the same and makes poor decisions in the process, they are absolved of any wrong doing??
I'll tell what I believe is happening, and has been for quite a while.
We have raised poverty up as a virtue and success has been deemed evil. Just b/c someone is able to HAVE something that someone else doesn't have but maybe wants, doesn't mean that they have to give it up or have it taken away to make the other person feel better.
And the really hard truth for so many is that poverty is being raised up as a virtue b/c money is increasingly becoming more and more of an idol to everyone. Therefore, if someone can't get as much as they want. They feel the need to take it away from those who can earn it or have earned it. The noble poor person mentality comes from a twisting of scripture, combined with a need to feel good about things that someone else doesn't have or hasn't put the effort forth to do.
Christ would rebuke many of us, b/c our desire to see others fall is rooted in our desires to have what they have.
It's sickening that forums like this (Christian forums no less) have this much bandwidth taken up from aall this bickering and arguing about "who has what and why". Or..."who's to blame for this persons problems" without automatically analyzing ones self first.
If you don't have the money or the means......................................................DON'T DO IT.
I am experiencing a time in my life right now where I really want a high end computer gaming machine. But, our finances combined with some lifestyle changes right now, won't allow it to happen right away. That makes me inpatient at times b/c I find myself wanting it now rather than later. However, I know in time, if I SAVE money and put it aside, I'll get to have it, with the right amount of discipline.
My wife and I also want a house. But we are not in a position to buy right now. I just changed jobs, we have a baby on the way and we are not 100% sure we'll still be here in a few years. Waiting a year and saving up money will let me know if I truly like the job, will give us time to build up a down payment, and give us time to allow God to work more in our lives in case there is anything else he has in store for us.
The hardest part of all is that it was a 40% increase in pay for me, and my wife just received a raise at her exisiting job. SO automatically there is that urge to want to immediatley fulfill those desires with that extra income.
whew................I gotta stop for now. 
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