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Israel - 1948 - 5/15/2008 11:12:35 PM
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1love1God1way
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I'm not a big end-times guru, I'll admit that, so pardon me if this question is a little naive, but. . .
I was wondering how we know that what took place in 1948 is what the Bible is talking about? How do we know it is actually significant? What if Scripture meant something else that hasn't happened yet?
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-Ben-
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/16/2008 12:26:59 AM
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tracydolls
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Jews went back to their Homeland, they had been out since the Romans kicked them out in about 70 AD.
For alot of prophecy, Israelites have to be home. They won back Jerusalem in 1967, study that. That was nothing but G-D!
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/16/2008 5:10:35 PM
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TheoCentric
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Don't be so sure that it's fulfillment of prophecy.
The Jews had to be home for Christ's first coming.
But for His second coming? Got scripture?
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/17/2008 5:10:45 AM
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Ntech
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
Don't be so sure that it's fulfillment of prophecy.
The Jews had to be home for Christ's first coming.
But for His second coming? Got scripture?
Try this. Somebody has to run off those pesky Gentiles.
Luke 21.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/17/2008 11:00:36 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1163
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quote:
But for His second coming? Got scripture?
Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
Zep 3:10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.
And all of Zechariah
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/17/2008 1:05:31 PM
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TheoCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
But for His second coming? Got scripture?
Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
Zep 3:10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.
And all of Zechariah
Think about where the Jews were at the time this was written.
Hint: They weren't in the Promised land.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/17/2008 7:08:11 PM
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tracydolls
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Think about where Jews are now. Scripture is revelent for today.
DNA is bringing them back to Israel.
I guess I don't understand?
So the Jews do not have to rebuild Temple that is in Israel?
You don't agree that they have to be there?
Also the Jews at this time are not beyond the rivers of Ethiopia
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/18/2008 5:55:41 AM
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cajunhillbilly
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Nope. The only temple that counts now is the temple of Christ's body, the Church. Acc. to Hebrews, the things of the Old Testament were but SHADOWS. Now that the REALITY is here, the SHADOWS are done away with FOREVER!!! I use to believe in the rebuilding of the temple, etc. but Hebrews got in the way every time. Finally I concluded that the fulfillment of EVERY Old Testament shadow is Christ and the realities of the New Testament Church. Can't get around it if you read Hebrews. Plus Paul says the same thing in Galatians.
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"A Stargate. You know, kind of a ring thing. Comes with a dialer. You hit some symbols. The lights come on. It spins around. And then it flushes sideways" Jack O'Neill on Stargate SG1
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/18/2008 6:27:53 AM
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TheoCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Think about where Jews are now. Scripture is revelent for today.
DNA is bringing them back to Israel.
I guess I don't understand?
So the Jews do not have to rebuild Temple that is in Israel?
You don't agree that they have to be there?
Also the Jews at this time are not beyond the rivers of Ethiopia
The temple is not to be rebuilt.
Jesus said that it would be destroyed. It was destroyed in 70 A.D.
To those who believe the temple has to be rebuilt and sacrifices commence again, I have to ask. For what purpose? Does not Hebrews teach that the sacrifices are finished? Jesus was the final sacrifice? Was not the veil ripped in two as a sign that all peoples have access to the Holy of Holies?
I remember hearing a Messianic Jew once say that what brought him to Christ was the destruction of the temple. That was the sign.
The Church is the body of Christ, the temple. There is no temple in Heaven because God is the temple.
The Jews were brought back to the land in order for Jesus to come. There is never an indication they will be brought back again. They are there now, because of Western guilt over the holocaust.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/18/2008 3:08:16 PM
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Heavendweller
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To concur with many of you, I agree it cannot be God's will to rebuild the temple and ordain sacrifices.
Why would God sanction something that He already did away with for good? No one, Jew or Gentile, can be saved through the old sacrificial system. The curtain of the temple was torn in two signifying that the former way through animal sacrifice was once and for all abolished, ushering in the perfect sacrifice of our Paschal Lamb, Jesus Christ. The only way Jews can be saved is by acknowledging that Christ's sacrifice is the only acceptable one unto God for salvation and He is the only spotless and perfect Lamb that takes away the sins of the world.
Heavendweller
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/18/2008 5:41:04 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, my friends!
LOL! ROTFL! Ha! Ha! Ha! CajunHillBilly and TheoCentric, don't you EVER read the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT)? Allow me to say that you really SHOULD read them and preferably read each prophecy in a single sitting! Do you think God changed His mind about His people Isra'el?!
Paul said that He didn't! Read Romans chapters 9, 10, and 11 also in a single sitting! As you're reading both the prophecies and Paul's writings about Isra'el, please read them as one hearing them for the first time! Please, try to understand them without the previous prejudices of your own personal theologies and eschatologies. HEAR them from the authors' point of view!
Oh, and by the way, to read these prophecies in a single sitting, you will have to MAKE the time to do so; most people don't just HAVE the time nor can they just TAKE the time to do so.
YES, there most certainly WILL be a literal, future Temple, literally built by the Mashiach Himself! Here's a small excerpt:
Ezek 43:1-5
1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:
2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.
3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.
4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
KJV
And again:
Zech 6:12-13
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV
And one more:
Zech 14:1-9
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
KJV
Do you think for one moment that God would recind His prophecies, even by "spiritualizing" them, passing them on to someone else?! Would God be so fickle? NO, a thousand times, NO!!!
Rom 11:26-29
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV
So, all Isra'el shall be rescued! They may have been (and still are to some degree) enemies, but when considering the Chosen Ones of God, they are loved ones for their ancestors' sakes! Who are their ancestors? Avraham, Yitzchak, Ya`acov, David, Shlomo, and all the rest we read about in Isra'el's history! God does not give up on His promises! If He didn't keep His promises, what makes you so sure He will keep His promises to YOU? But He does and He will! On that you can be sure!
Retrobyter
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God will never abolish His Torah; He merely sent His Son to COMPLETE it so we aren't FORCED to keep it! (It's still a good idea, however.)
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/18/2008 6:31:45 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 240
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
To concur with many of you, I agree it cannot be God's will to rebuild the temple and ordain sacrifices.
Why would God sanction something that He already did away with for good? No one, Jew or Gentile, can be saved through the old sacrificial system. The curtain of the temple was torn in two signifying that the former way through animal sacrifice was once and for all abolished, ushering in the perfect sacrifice of our Paschal Lamb, Jesus Christ. The only way Jews can be saved is by acknowledging that Christ's sacrifice is the only acceptable one unto God for salvation and He is the only spotless and perfect Lamb that takes away the sins of the world.
Heavendweller
Shalom, Heavendweller.
You are right, but you are also wrong. There's more than one kind of sacrifice. While the burnt offerings and the sin offerings were satisfied in the death of Yeshua`, there are other offerings as well. Offerings that God LOVES and WANTS! There are offerings of thanksgiving and peace offerings. These also involved animal sacrifices and are said to exist in the future.
I think it's commendable to understand the book of Hebrews to the point that you know that Yeshua`s death satisfied the burnt offering and the sin offering, but you need to know that God "changes not!" If He so enjoyed the burning of the fat in the past, why should He change His likes for the whim of any man or woman? More importantly and to the point:
Ezek 44:1-11
1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
4 Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face.
5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.
6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,
7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.
8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.
9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
KJV
Ex 29:38-42
38 Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.
39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:
40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.
41 And the other lamb thou shalt offer at even, and shalt do thereto according to the meat offering of the morning, and according to the drink offering thereof, for a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
42 This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD: where I will meet you, to speak there unto thee.
KJV
Retrobyter
_____________________________
God will never abolish His Torah; He merely sent His Son to COMPLETE it so we aren't FORCED to keep it! (It's still a good idea, however.)
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/19/2008 5:38:23 AM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 1987
Joined: 2/26/2006
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Retrobyter,
Here is what Jesus says:
(Mat 5:17) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
(Mat 5:18) For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
(Mat 27:50) And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
(Mat 27:51) And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split.
(Joh 19:30) When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
The last one literally means "accomplished."
If Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, would not that include Ezekiel as well?
Remember that the Jews were exile when Ezekiel was written. If you believe that Ezekiel is literal and still applies today, then you must also believe that David himself will reign physically again. Do you believe that too?
Btw, I know very well what Romans says. It does not mean a literal, physical Israel. It has to do with the church, which comprises both Jewish and Gentile believers as the grafting in part indicates.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/19/2008 6:39:47 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1067
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Yes, the Jews need to be in the land.... Joel 3 is all you really need to see. "In those days and at that time when I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem" and then goes on to make prophecies about the battle of Armageddon.
Simple enough... As for the return to Israel in 1948, it is obvious that God had a hand in it. However, I'm not entirely sold on the idea that that was specifically the return God is speaking of in the OT.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/19/2008 12:37:09 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3672
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
They won back Jerusalem in 1967, study that. That was nothing but G-D!
For certain!!!
Having good spies and a strong military helped.
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Wenn zuerst Sie nicht gelingen, Versuch, versuch wieder. Geben Sie dann auf. Es gibt keinen punkt, in ein zu sein, verdammt Narren darum. -- W. C. Fields
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/19/2008 10:40:35 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 240
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
Retrobyter,
Here is what Jesus says:
(Mat 5:17) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
(Mat 5:18) For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
(Mat 27:50) And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
(Mat 27:51) And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split.
(Joh 19:30) When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
The last one literally means "accomplished."
If Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, would not that include Ezekiel as well?
Remember that the Jews were exile when Ezekiel was written. If you believe that Ezekiel is literal and still applies today, then you must also believe that David himself will reign physically again. Do you believe that too?
Btw, I know very well what Romans says. It does not mean a literal, physical Israel. It has to do with the church, which comprises both Jewish and Gentile believers as the grafting in part indicates.
Shalom, TheoCentric!
WOW!!! You bet I believe that David will reign physically again! Don't you believe that you will reign with Him? Well, if we who are grafted-in Goyim (Gentiles) can reign with Him, we who were aliens from the commonwealth of Isra'el who've been made near by the blood of the Messiah, then why not the "natural branches?!"
Sure, I know that many of the children of Isra'el were captives and exiled during the time Yechez'k'el prophecied, but have you read the prophecy lately? There are promises that God makes to Isra'el that extend WAY beyond the restoration of the second Temple!
Just an example:
Ezek 37:25-28
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
KJV
And, excuse me, but you are "spiritualizing" (allegorizing) away the text of Romans 9-11 if you believe that it's about the "church!"
Consider the following:
Rom 11:24-29
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV
Did you get that? Let's try again from the Complete Jewish Bible:
Rom 11:24-29
24 For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree! 25 For, brothers, I want you to understand this truth which God formerly concealed but has now revealed, so that you won't imagine you know more than you actually do. It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra'el, until the Gentile world enters in its fullness; 26 and that it is in this way that all Isra'el will be saved. As the Tanakh says,
"Out of Tziyon will come the Redeemer; he will turn away ungodliness from Ya'akov 27 and this will be my covenant with them, . . . when I take away their sins." (Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9)
28 With respect to the Good News they are hated for your sake. But with respect to being chosen they are loved for the Patriarchs' sake, 29 for God's free gifts and his calling are irrevocable.
CJB
And so ALL Isra'el shall be rescued, delivered!
Have you ever read Z'kharyahu (Zechariah) chapters 12 through 14 in a version you can understand in a single sitting? The rescue will be awesome! It's NOT to be re-interpreted as pertaining to some entity called a "church" (unless, of course, that refers to the children of Isra'el)!
He's coming back to help His homeland! He's coming back to rescue a people its neighbors are trying to annihilate! to "drive into the sea!" He will come with VENGEANCE!
Retrobyter
P.S. Oh, and about Yeshua` fulfilling the prophecies. He did not necessarily fulfill them ALL during His First Coming; however, He STARTED the fulfillment process during His First Advent. Some of the prophecies obviously are NOT completely fulfilled, but He "got the ball rolling," so to speak. All the prophecies about the Messiah, the Son of Yosef, the Suffering Messiah, were fulfilled at His First Coming, but the prophecies about the Messiah, the Son of David, the Victorious, Reigning Messiah, are YET IN THE FUTURE! He even demonstrated that fulfillment process in the verses He quoted in Luke 4:17-21:
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
KJV
The whole prophecy is found in Isaiah 61:1-9 (and beyond):
Isa 61:1-9
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
KJV
Notice where He stopped reading! He did NOT include the next phrase, "...and the day of vengeance of our God," or the rest of the passage. THAT MUCH He had fulfilled to that point, but not the rest...YET!
< Message edited by Retrobyter -- 5/19/2008 11:11:06 PM >
_____________________________
God will never abolish His Torah; He merely sent His Son to COMPLETE it so we aren't FORCED to keep it! (It's still a good idea, however.)
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/19/2008 11:20:02 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 240
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Yes, the Jews need to be in the land.... Joel 3 is all you really need to see. "In those days and at that time when I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem" and then goes on to make prophecies about the battle of Armageddon.
Simple enough... As for the return to Israel in 1948, it is obvious that God had a hand in it. However, I'm not entirely sold on the idea that that was specifically the return God is speaking of in the OT.
Adam
Shalom, Adam.
You're right!
Isa 11:1-16
11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
KJV
Retrobyter
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God will never abolish His Torah; He merely sent His Son to COMPLETE it so we aren't FORCED to keep it! (It's still a good idea, however.)
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/20/2008 8:42:15 AM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 1987
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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Sorry, Retrobyter, but wrong again.
Jesus is the King in the line of David who reigns and we reign with Him.
David is resurrected as are all children of God, but it is to reign with Christ along with the children of God, not to reign over everyone again.
All of scripture is about the Church, God's people being redeemed through Jesus Christ. The Israelites were the Church in the OT. Adam and Eve were the Church in the beginning. Noah was the Church. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. are all the Church. Paul, Peter, James, Jude, John, Barnabas, Timothy, etc. are all the Church.
We are now getting way off topic.
Can you give a clear verse that indicates that modern Israel being formed in 1948 was fulfillment of prophecy?
Incidentally, it's been said that prophetic cycles usually go in 40 years, so therefore, at least two possible 40 year cycles have come and gone. 1948-1988. 1967-2007. I suppose the next cycle would be 1973-2013. We'll see.
Can't rely on dates and newspaper prophecy. Only a proper interpretation of God's Word.
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/20/2008 11:44:24 PM
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Ntech
Posts: 69
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
Sorry, Retrobyter, but wrong again.
Jesus is the King in the line of David who reigns and we reign with Him.
David is resurrected as are all children of God, but it is to reign with Christ along with the children of God, not to reign over everyone again.
All of scripture is about the Church, God's people being redeemed through Jesus Christ. The Israelites were the Church in the OT. Adam and Eve were the Church in the beginning. Noah was the Church. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. are all the Church. Paul, Peter, James, Jude, John, Barnabas, Timothy, etc. are all the Church.
We are now getting way off topic.
Can you give a clear verse that indicates that modern Israel being formed in 1948 was fulfillment of prophecy?
Incidentally, it's been said that prophetic cycles usually go in 40 years, so therefore, at least two possible 40 year cycles have come and gone. 1948-1988. 1967-2007. I suppose the next cycle would be 1973-2013. We'll see.
Can't rely on dates and newspaper prophecy. Only a proper interpretation of God's Word.
Well we could start with Matthew 24.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
These verses are clearly indicating that there will be a temple in the end times. Verse 14 states that this abomination of desolation will occur after the gospel of the kingdom is preached to all nations of the world. With the Temple Mount under the control of the Palestinians that is not possible yet. Only a Jewish Government could or would seize control of the Mount and build a new temple.
So does this prove that this Israel is the one of the end times? No. But it does prove by inference that there must be an Israel for a temple to exist. This could be that Israel.
Now that argument being made there is another one that inferres that this could be that Israel. And that prophecy is the book of Hosea. And what does Hosea do? He inferrs a date for an end time event. And that event is called the day of Jezreel.
In Hosea 1 he talks about that distant event. When that event occurs he says that the Israelites and the Jews will get together and choose a leader. And that it will be a great day for them.
But in Hosea 6 verses 1, 2, and 3 he says this.
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
This is a prediction that Judah would be destroyed but then restored later. And the timeframe given is 2 days followed by a 3rd day of blessing. But 3 days makes no sense until you consider these 2 verses.
2nd Peter 3-8.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Psalms 90-4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Those days are 1000 year periods of time. And its been 1938 years since the destruction of the 2nd temple. It seems likely that this Israel is the one of Hosea.
< Message edited by Ntech -- 5/21/2008 12:55:44 AM >
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RE: Israel - 1948 - 5/21/2008 5:08:06 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1163
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: offline
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Israel beat how many arab countries?
Not possilbe without G-D.
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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