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Judas - hung or fell? - 1/6/2008 6:13:50 AM
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cornelr
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According to my knowledge and Matthew Judas hung himself but according to Acts 1:18 he fell and his guts spilled. Why the contradiction?
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 1/6/2008 11:00:18 AM
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cybrjewls
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Greeting CornelR! I would like to welcome you to the forum. Please be aware that the account about Judas Iscariot is of less importance to many because it is narrative in the text and not The Words spoken of by Jesus. Many people of the faith would view this as speaking to the authenticity of the documents and writings because there is some perspective deviation in the account. Not that this would take away from their Testimony. Instead, it adds to it because we can see that their accounts vary slightly. In other words, when people testify about something on a witness stand in court it is acceptable when it is first hand witness testimony. Otherwise, it would be inadmissable as hearsay because it would be the second hand word of someone who was not an eyewitness to the events. We see, then, that these were there directly witnessing the Testimony of Jesus and should be accepted on that basis. It is relatively of much less importance how Judas died, because Jesus didn't say how he would die, just that it was woe. We know that disciples did not hang out with Judas while he died, they stayed together in fellowship. So that their testimony at this point is differing is no surprise.
Others say that he hung himself in the field that he bought and then split open, even though the books expressly state that he threw the silver back at them and they bought the field.
It is not a matter of Doctrine of Faith how Judas died. It is way low on the post for importance so that we do not throw out the Princes Words and Testimony because of an account about how a traitor died.
Also, this is proof that The Church did not change these Scriptures as some have proposed about the council that was formed to affirm sound Scripture Doctrinal writings under a certain Emporer. Some are falsely saying that this emporer induced the Gospel of John on His Testimony of Jesus as The Lord of Hosts as God incarnate. Such people should realize that this emporer made a huge statue with a large head of himself, not Jesus. Thus one can see that he would give himself such megalomania honor instead in his empire. Also, he finally got baptised at the end of his reign, not before. Therefore, those that were called by the emporer to handle the Doctrine of The Gospels council where not adding to these Scriptures. If they were to have done this, no discrepancy at all would be found.
We could concur that Judas indirectly bought the potters field by throwing the silver back at the Pharisees in guilt and anguish and that hanging himself on the tree, he then fell down and split open, and now the field is called the field of blood.
< Message edited by prophetica -- 1/7/2008 12:54:56 PM >
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 1/6/2008 11:28:52 AM
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brujaq
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You ever seen what happens to a strangled animal when it begins to decompose ,swell up , and because the air passage is blocked and gas can,t escape ? Especially if it,s hanging when the head comes off or the rope breaks and it hits the ground it can burst open . You simply have two different descriptions of the same event ...
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 1/6/2008 12:10:34 PM
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ManimalX
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quote:
You simply have two different descriptions of the same event ...
brujaq is correct. There are many possibilities that could cause an event like this to happen. He could have hung himself and cut himself. He could have hung himself and fell and burst open.
Think of it this way: A police officer takes a statement from two witnesses to a hit-and-run. Witness #1 says, "The victim was hit by a red truck". Witness #2 says, "The victim was hit by a lone male driver". The obvious conclusion is that the victim was hit by a red truck driven by a lone male. Both statements are true, but different.
There are many such examples throughout the Gospels.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 1/6/2008 4:53:47 PM
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Okami
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I've heard a few different views.
One, being that he hung himself, the rope broke, and he fell to his death.
Another, was that the chief priests were angered by his repentance and decided not to allow him to kill himself but to kill him themselves. They had someone cut him down and he apparently fell from a pretty high place.
Another was that "hanged" might not have meant literally from a noose, but rather expressing remorse. But, based on the words used, it would seem he literally hung himself.
Acts didn't say that he died from the fall, just that he fell.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 1/7/2008 2:45:42 PM
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treeclimber48
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I was just reading about this is in the book of Acts. He hung himself, when they went to cut him down, he fell resulting in the field of blood.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 1/21/2008 3:54:36 PM
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juliondeano
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Hi Everyone!
May the Lord bless you all for studying His Word!
Let's look at the scripture verses in question:
Matthew 27:5(KJV) And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Acts 1:18(KJV) Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
If Judas had cast down his 30 pieces of silver that he received for betraying Jesus how did he then buy a field?
Let's look at what happened to the money:
Matthew 27:6,7,8(KJV) And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them in the treasury, because it is the price of blood.(7) And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field to bury strangers in. (8) Wherefore that field was called , The field of blood, unto this day.
Acts1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
The disciples in deciding what they should do about the Loss of Judas were simply quoting the Old Testament scripture. Which ironically prophesied of the priest that bought the Potters field and who was guilty as well thus the Lord took care of him, and quickly.
Hope this is a help to all!
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 2/2/2008 2:29:58 AM
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Armeggedon_nxt
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I'm partially in agreement
with prophetica to this extent, that we should not focus on how a traitor died
but how our Savior died. But you do know that the Original 12 apostles didn't write the gospels. It was written by believers that came later in the church.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 2/2/2008 8:54:26 AM
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cwb
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
...
Also, this is proof that The Church did not change these Scriptures as some have proposed about the council that was formed to affirm sound Scripture Doctrinal writings ...
Good point there prophetica...
If man (those who canonized scripture) was tryin' to convince unbelievers, this would have been modified. Of course, the fact that Judas' blood (life) was forfeited would not be changed.
For MY curiousity there cornel, why do you ask?
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 2/2/2008 11:56:45 AM
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drmark
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quote:
But you do know that the Original 12 apostles didn't write the gospels. It was written by believers that came later in the church. Say what? Matthew and John were both original disciples, later turned apostles. Unless you have some extraordinary evidence to refute 1900 years of church tradition, they each wrote their own respective gospel! Obviously, John Mark and Luke were not part of the Twelve but they both knew and communicated intimately with several of the Apostles.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 2/2/2008 4:18:16 PM
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Okami
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Armeggedon_nxt
but how our Savior died. But you do know that the Original 12 apostles didn't write the gospels. It was written by believers that came later in the church.
And how exactly do you come to that conclusion?
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 2/10/2008 1:17:25 PM
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bornagain22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: juliondeano
Hi Everyone!
May the Lord bless you all for studying His Word!
Let's look at the scripture verses in question:
Matthew 27:5(KJV) And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Acts 1:18(KJV) Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
If Judas had cast down his 30 pieces of silver that he received for betraying Jesus how did he then buy a field?
Let's look at what happened to the money:
Matthew 27:6,7,8(KJV) And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them in the treasury, because it is the price of blood.(7) And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field to bury strangers in. (8) Wherefore that field was called , The field of blood, unto this day.
Acts1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
The disciples in deciding what they should do about the Loss of Judas were simply quoting the Old Testament scripture. Which ironically prophesied of the priest that bought the Potters field and who was guilty as well thus the Lord took care of him, and quickly.
Hope this is a help to all!
What is a "bishoprick"? I have never seen a translation that had that word used in that verse.
But, I have seen, "his office let another take".
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 2/10/2008 4:59:33 PM
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diosmeama
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The important thing is that Judas died without what the other apostles had:
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." John 17:12
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 2/10/2008 5:11:07 PM
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Okami
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quote:
What is a "bishoprick"? I have never seen a translation that had that word used in that verse.
But, I have seen, "his office let another take".
KJV uses bishoprick
Douay-Rheims uses bishopric
Darby Bible uses overseership.
Tyndale uses bisshoprycke
Webster's Bible uses bishopric
Young's uses oversight
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My ancestors were humans. Sorry to hear about yours.
Bible answer men the way it should be done.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 6/27/2008 8:49:54 AM
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mr_moo
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There is no contradictions in the Bible concerning the death of Judas. Judas died shortly before Chhrist was crucified. At the death of Christ there was an earthquake so mighty that rocks were broken and graves were opened. The veil of the temple was rent in two from top to bottom. This earthquake is said to have caused Judas to fall head long violently, and thus his bowels bursted. Those who look for contradictions in the Scriptures, will find things that appear contradictory. But upon closer examination, they have a viable explanation. So instead of searching for contradictions, we should trust God to preserve His Word as He promised, and the author of the Holy Bible is the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 6/27/2008 11:05:15 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mr_moo
There is no contradictions in the Bible concerning the death of Judas. Judas died shortly before Chhrist was crucified. At the death of Christ there was an earthquake so mighty that rocks were broken and graves were opened. The veil of the temple was rent in two from top to bottom. This earthquake is said to have caused Judas to fall head long violently, and thus his bowels bursted. Those who look for contradictions in the Scriptures, will find things that appear contradictory. But upon closer examination, they have a viable explanation. So instead of searching for contradictions, we should trust God to preserve His Word as He promised, and the author of the Holy Bible is the Holy Spirit.
This issue points out the limitations of the so-called literal interpretation. To reconcile the two accounts, one must fill in the gaps. The Bible notes that the priests purchased the "potters field" (Matt 27:7) while Acts 1:18 says "this man" purchased the field. It seems odd that Acts would not note that he hanged himself.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 6/29/2008 8:59:20 PM
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Digrieze
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Actually, probably both. During one tour of duty I was in an area where one side was slow hanging their enemies, and leaving them there. on more than one occasion we found bodies that had decayed to the point they split open when being taken down, or shortly after placing on the ground. It's a gross but simple fact of life, if a body is left hanging it will eventually take itself down in a very messy way. Best not to think too long about it.
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Yours in the love of Jesus
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/2/2008 9:27:07 PM
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turtleman
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He did both. When Judas hung himself this probably broke his neck and killed him. However during the earthquake at Jesus's death, the limb he hung himself on broke, thus allowing him to fall for his bowels to burst open.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/3/2008 4:09:14 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Honestly? I don't really care if it was one or the other. The point is that Judas was dead... I mean, REALLY dead. He could not have gotten any more "dead" than he was.
Adam
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/3/2008 11:18:23 AM
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robto
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turtleman
He did both. When Judas hung himself this probably broke his neck and killed him. However during the earthquake at Jesus's death, the limb he hung himself on broke, thus allowing him to fall for his bowels to burst open.
It is interesting that so many in this thread don't have any problem with messing around with the Bible in this way.
Conservative Christians often accuse liberal Christians of "picking and choosing" which parts of the Bible to believe. For instance, in this thread, the liberal response would be to try to determine which of the two versions was more historically likely in its context, or which was more supported by external evidence. And such a person would be accused of leaving out the parts of the Bible he/she didn't like.
But the alternative most here seem to approve of is to ADD things that aren't in the Bible to harmonize the two versions. So, turtleman adds that the branch broke during the earthquake. In doing so, he is creating a THIRD version, different from either of the two that are in the Bible. (I don't intend to pick on you, turtleman. I could just as well have taken any of the other harmonizations that have been proposed.)
So my question for all of you proposing harmonization is this: Why is it OK to add to the Bible, but not to delete from it? Why is creating your own version of the Bible acceptable, whereas treating the Bible books as historical documents and applying the rules of historical investigation is not?
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/5/2008 6:12:41 AM
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jpervis
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Accounting for all...."hanged" ie: "impaled". No contradiction.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/7/2008 1:16:48 PM
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robto
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jpervis
Accounting for all...."hanged" ie: "impaled". No contradiction.
Welcome, jpervis!
So, are you suggesting that "hanged" and "impaled" mean the same thing? In my understanding, hanging usually involves ropes and impaling involves pointy things. Unless you are suggesting that being impaled by a rope could be called an instance of hanging, I fail to see how this resolves the contradiction.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/8/2008 10:55:05 PM
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johnnyray
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I've always just assumed it was both, because people generally don't burst open when they fall, but I could see it happening if they have been dead awhile. In fact it seems kind of unlikely he would burst open unless he was already dead awhile, and dead people don't fall unless they are hanging or set up on something to fall from.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/22/2008 12:37:13 PM
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fardawg
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Hanged can mean impaled. notice that Matthew doesn't say there was a rope involved.
Compare the NKJV etc. to the TNIV version of Ester.
Ester 7:9-10 NKJV "Now Harbonah, one of the eunuchs, said to the king, “Look! The gallows, fifty cubits high, which Haman made for Mordecai, who spoke good on the king’s behalf, is standing at the house of Haman.”
Then the king said, “Hang him on it!” So they hanged Haman on the gallows that he had prepared for Mordecai. Then the king’s wrath subsided."
The word translated gallows means a plank or pole of wood.
Ester 7:9-10 TNIV "Then Harbona, one of the eunuchs attending the king, said, "A pole reaching to a height of fifty cubits stands by Haman's house. He had it set up for Mordecai, who spoke up to help the king."The king said, "Impale him on it!" So they impaled Haman on the pole he had set up for Mordecai. Then the king's fury subsided. "
Taking this into account the two versions make sense. Judas probably found a sharp tree stump and jumped on it, i.e. fell head long, and impaled himself thus spilling his guts on the ground.
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RE: Judas - hung or fell? - 7/22/2008 2:05:52 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fardawg
Hanged can mean impaled. notice that Matthew doesn't say there was a rope involved.
Compare the NKJV etc. to the TNIV version of Ester.
Ester 7:9-10 NKJV "Now Harbonah, one of the eunuchs, said to the king, “Look! The gallows, fifty cubits high, which Haman made for Mordecai, who spoke good on the king’s behalf, is standing at the house of Haman.”
Then the king said, “Hang him on it!” So they hanged Haman on the gallows that he had prepared for Mordecai. Then the king’s wrath subsided."
The word translated gallows means a plank or pole of wood.
Ester 7:9-10 TNIV "Then Harbona, one of the eunuchs attending the king, said, "A pole reaching to a height of fifty cubits stands by Haman's house. He had it set up for Mordecai, who spoke up to help the king."The king said, "Impale him on it!" So they impaled Haman on the pole he had set up for Mordecai. Then the king's fury subsided. "
Taking this into account the two versions make sense. Judas probably found a sharp tree stump and jumped on it, i.e. fell head long, and impaled himself thus spilling his guts on the ground.
The Greek is "choked" or "strangled" oneself. It is quite a stretch to get impaled from that.
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