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McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 8:47:06 AM
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sylvan
Posts: 120
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McCain clealy needs the troop surge to be "viewed" as a success, since he supported the plan. In recent weeks, he's been claiming success and attacking Obama quite agressively on this topic. However, McCain has been lying about the reality of the situation. He was recently busted in several interviews - one example: saying that "Gen. Petraeus goes out everyday in an unarmored Humvee". Sorry John, not the case. Yet, in the same breath he has the nerve to imply that only he has the facts and that we need to "catch up". He also seems to forget (he's been forgetting a lot lately) that violence actually increased following the troop surge - right up until we started paying-off the Iraqi insurgents. Taxpayers are paying a pretty hefty price - it just doesn't sit well in my stomach, knowing that were paying-off insurgents, some former al-Qaida members. Paying our enemies hundreds of millions to "play nice". McCain likes to think of himself as a "war man", but this is a TERRIBLE military strategy. It might have a short-term affect, which is important during a political season. The pay-offs might work long enough to get him elected - based on the illusion of success. But, it's not real success and the pay-offs should outrage Americans (of course, I'm sure that's why they're so quiet about it). McCain needs to stop trying to mislead the American people - he's definately not a straight-talker.
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 9:26:27 AM
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saved9201
Posts: 728
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Well, since everybody from Bush to the President of Iraq has pretty much shot down the concept of being in Iraq "100 years," McCain has to do something to claim victory. Now it's, "yeah, I know we can withdraw troops from Iraq, but it was MY idea, the surge, that made that possible."
Obama's mistake has been to play into that argument by insisting McCain was wrong about the surge. If I were Obama, I'd just stay on point and say, "Fine, whatever worked, it worked. Bottom line is, this is not the time to argue about who gets credit. Let's give our wonderful men and women who served gallantly the credit, not the politicians who sit in Washington. Now it's time to claim victory and bring them home to their families like the current administration is saying, like the president of Iraq is saying, and like I've been saying all along."
- Julius
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 9:54:28 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 390
Joined: 1/18/2008
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The Myth of the Surge
quote:
The 2nd Squadron, 2nd Stryker Cavalry Regiment, is handing out $32 million to Iraqis in the district,
......the strategy of the surge seems simple: to buy off every Iraqi in sight. All told, the U.S. is now backing more than 600,000 Iraqi men in the security sector — more than half the number Saddam had at the height of his power.
Long 6 page article by Rolling Stone (still reading it!).
There's been alot of news about the "surge" in soldiers, I wonder why this "surge" in money has been kept quiet? Why not tell Americans ALL of the strategy? Surge is surge, right?
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 9:57:40 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5230
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sylvan
McCain clealy needs the troop surge to be "viewed" as a success, since he supported the plan. In recent weeks, he's been claiming success and attacking Obama quite agressively on this topic. However, McCain has been lying about the reality of the situation. He was recently busted in several interviews - one example: saying that "Gen. Petraeus goes out everyday in an unarmored Humvee". Sorry John, not the case. Yet, in the same breath he has the nerve to imply that only he has the facts and that we need to "catch up". He also seems to forget (he's been forgetting a lot lately) that violence actually increased following the troop surge - right upuntil we started paying-off the Iraqi insurgents. Taxpayers are paying a pretty hefty price - it just doesn't sit well in my stomach, knowing that were paying-off insurgents, some former al-Qaida members. Paying our enemies hundreds of millions to "play nice". McCain likes to think of himself as a "war man", but this is a TERRIBLE military strategy. It might have a short-term affect, which is important during a political season. The pay-offs might work long enough to get him elected - based on the illusion of success. But, it's not real success and the pay-offs should outrage Americans (of course, I'm sure that's why they're so quiet about it). McCain needs to stop trying to mislead the American people - he's definately not a straight-talker.
Anyone who cannot see the benefits (sucess) of the surge has to have their head stuck up Barak Hussein Obama's....well let's just say they are blinded to the truth by the "Light" of the Messiah from Chicago.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 10:01:01 AM
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freakofnature
Posts: 759
Joined: 1/17/2008
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quote:
Long 6 page article by Rolling Stone (still reading it
Rolling Stone??? LOL, AHAHAHAHHHAHAHAAHHAAA... Yeah, that's a reputible news source. About the same as getting your news from a smut-a-zine
saved9201- Obama would have a problem their becuase the left hates the military, and he can't show any kind of support for their efforts. He brings no hope and change more of the same tow the lne liberal speak. He has claimed the surge and Iraq overall a loss and any kind of statement to the contrary at this point would be more fodder for conservatives on the flip-flop claims.
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 10:44:49 AM
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sylvan
Posts: 120
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: sylvan
McCain clealy needs the troop surge to be "viewed" as a success, since he supported the plan. In recent weeks, he's been claiming success and attacking Obama quite agressively on this topic. However, McCain has been lying about the reality of the situation. He was recently busted in several interviews - one example: saying that "Gen. Petraeus goes out everyday in an unarmored Humvee". Sorry John, not the case. Yet, in the same breath he has the nerve to imply that only he has the facts and that we need to "catch up". He also seems to forget (he's been forgetting a lot lately) that violence actually increased following the troop surge - right upuntil we started paying-off the Iraqi insurgents. Taxpayers are paying a pretty hefty price - it just doesn't sit well in my stomach, knowing that were paying-off insurgents, some former al-Qaida members. Paying our enemies hundreds of millions to "play nice". McCain likes to think of himself as a "war man", but this is a TERRIBLE military strategy. It might have a short-term affect, which is important during a political season. The pay-offs might work long enough to get him elected - based on the illusion of success. But, it's not real success and the pay-offs should outrage Americans (of course, I'm sure that's why they're so quiet about it). McCain needs to stop trying to mislead the American people - he's definately not a straight-talker.
Anyone who cannot see the benefits (sucess) of the surge has to have their head stuck up Barak Hussein Obama's....well let's just say they are blinded to the truth by the "Light" of the Messiah from Chicago.
Thanks
RC
Why don't you tell me the benefits if it is SO CLEAR? And please, support it with facts. I'm not interested in individual bias.
Here's a fact, violence increased as a result of the troop surge - the violence DROPPED DRASTICALLY immediately after the PAY-OFF....and only after the PAY-OFF.
Here's a quote form General MCaffrey - "We can pay them that for 10 years if we had to....Better we provide an infusion of cash where we're keeping a local night watchman for us on duty than we conduct combat operation. Money isn't even a factor we ought to take into account".
The reduction of violence can not be credited to the surge. Actually, anyone who cannot see the turn-around has a lot to do with the "infusion" of CASH, has his head somewhere else.
I look forward to your response on the facts.
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 10:57:03 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 856
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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I haven't heard anything about "paying off" insurgents. Now I realize that I lead a sheltered life: I don't read Rolling Stone or the NY Times, get my news from MSNBC or CNN, watch MTV or Homer Simpson, and I don't get my historical "facts" from Wikipedia. So where did you learn of the "pay off?"
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: sylvan
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: sylvan
McCain clealy needs the troop surge to be "viewed" as a success, since he supported the plan. In recent weeks, he's been claiming success and attacking Obama quite agressively on this topic. However, McCain has been lying about the reality of the situation. He was recently busted in several interviews - one example: saying that "Gen. Petraeus goes out everyday in an unarmored Humvee". Sorry John, not the case. Yet, in the same breath he has the nerve to imply that only he has the facts and that we need to "catch up". He also seems to forget (he's been forgetting a lot lately) that violence actually increased following the troop surge - right upuntil we started paying-off the Iraqi insurgents. Taxpayers are paying a pretty hefty price - it just doesn't sit well in my stomach, knowing that were paying-off insurgents, some former al-Qaida members. Paying our enemies hundreds of millions to "play nice". McCain likes to think of himself as a "war man", but this is a TERRIBLE military strategy. It might have a short-term affect, which is important during a political season. The pay-offs might work long enough to get him elected - based on the illusion of success. But, it's not real success and the pay-offs should outrage Americans (of course, I'm sure that's why they're so quiet about it). McCain needs to stop trying to mislead the American people - he's definately not a straight-talker.
Anyone who cannot see the benefits (sucess) of the surge has to have their head stuck up Barak Hussein Obama's....well let's just say they are blinded to the truth by the "Light" of the Messiah from Chicago.
Thanks
RC
Why don't you tell me the benefits if it is SO CLEAR? And please, support it with facts. I'm not interested in individual bias.
Here's a fact, violence increased as a result of the troop surge - the violence DROPPED DRASTICALLY immediately after the PAY-OFF....and only after the PAY-OFF.
Here's a quote form General MCaffrey - "We can pay them that for 10 years if we had to....Better we provide an infusion of cash where we're keeping a local night watchman for us on duty than we conduct combat operation. Money isn't even a factor we ought to take into account".
The reduction of violence can not be credited to the surge. Actually, anyone who cannot see the turn-around has a lot to do with the "infusion" of CASH, has his head somewhere else.
I look forward to your response on the facts.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 11:03:36 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1633
Joined: 5/4/2005
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[quote]ORIGINAL: davemiller7
I haven't heard anything about "paying off" insurgents. Now I realize that I lead a sheltered life: I don't read Rolling Stone or the NY Times, get my news from MSNBC or CNN, watch MTV or Homer Simpson, and I don't get my historical "facts" from Wikipedia. So where did you learn of the "pay off?"
-Dave[/quote]
Take a look
I've made this point here previously as well.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 11:04:41 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1633
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Anyone who cannot see the benefits (sucess) of the surge has to have their head stuck up Barak Hussein Obama's....well let's just say they are blinded to the truth by the "Light" of the Messiah from Chicago.
Thanks
RC
Dear RCJames:
What are those benefits? What is that truth? Would you care to expound or will you just make rude comments such as this?
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 11:05:08 AM
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freakofnature
Posts: 759
Joined: 1/17/2008
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quote:
Here's a quote form General MCaffrey -
This General McCaffrey?
McCaffrey-War Criminal?
Or maybe this quote from McCaffrey
McCaffrey Sees Progress
The same McCaffrey that is a Clinton loyalist and uh.. laughable Drug Czar?
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 11:11:22 AM
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freakofnature
Posts: 759
Joined: 1/17/2008
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Oh and another thing, what is it you lib's want, First you don't want "Bloodshed" then when we attempt to stop the blood shed you whine and complain about the tactics... Is it working or not... Appears yes it is working
Department of Defense June Report to Congress
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 11:22:48 AM
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sylvan
Posts: 120
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
Oh and another thing, what is it you lib's want, First you don't want "Bloodshed" then when we attempt to stop the blood shed you whine and complain about the tactics... Is it working or not... Appears yes it is working
Department of Defense June Report to Congress
What's with all the insults here? I'm a registered Republican, thanks. I'm concerned with the topic, not w/ your politics. Heck, McCain was a very outspoken critic of this War - as well as Bush and Rumsfeld (in particular) - is he a flaming lib too? Please, keep your personal attacks to yourself.
Lets talk about the topic of paying-off the insurgents. As an American, with a distinguished family military history, I have a big problem buying off the enemy....negotiating with terrorists.
< Message edited by sylvan -- 7/25/2008 11:31:17 AM >
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 11:24:22 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 856
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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I've seen other stuff from the Times Online site out of London, UK. It doesn't seem any more credible than what might appear in the Enquirer, etc.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
[quote]ORIGINAL: davemiller7
I haven't heard anything about "paying off" insurgents. Now I realize that I lead a sheltered life: I don't read Rolling Stone or the NY Times, get my news from MSNBC or CNN, watch MTV or Homer Simpson, and I don't get my historical "facts" from Wikipedia. So where did you learn of the "pay off?"
-Dave
Take a look
I've made this point here previously as well.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 11:36:19 AM
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sylvan
Posts: 120
Joined: 5/2/2008
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Obviously, they are being quiet about it - paying off insurgents would anger a lot of people. Plus, it allows politicians to play politics.
The insurgent groups are now being paid to be "Concerned Local Citizens". The CLC program is discussed on most reputable news sources - FOX, CNN, etc.
I meant to mention above - I'M NOT A FAN OF GENERAL McCAFFERY - OR THIS PLAN.
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 11:39:04 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1633
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
I've seen other stuff from the Times Online site out of London, UK. It doesn't seem any more credible than what might appear in the Enquirer, etc.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
[quote]ORIGINAL: davemiller7
I haven't heard anything about "paying off" insurgents. Now I realize that I lead a sheltered life: I don't read Rolling Stone or the NY Times, get my news from MSNBC or CNN, watch MTV or Homer Simpson, and I don't get my historical "facts" from Wikipedia. So where did you learn of the "pay off?"
-Dave
Take a look
I've made this point here previously as well.
What would you accept, a letter from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff? LOL
It's happening whether you like it or not.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 11:45:27 AM
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freakofnature
Posts: 759
Joined: 1/17/2008
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quote:
What's with all the insults here? I'm a registered Republican, thanks
Funny how you equate being called a liberal as an insult or personal attack...LOL... I wouldn't like it either. Otherwise, nuttin' personal, it's just generally when thread posters go on the attack and complain about the "Surge" that is usually equated to brain dead liberal party towing, sheep. And then otherwise, this statement wouldn't apply to you. Thanks 
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 12:02:40 PM
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sylvan
Posts: 120
Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
quote:
What's with all the insults here? I'm a registered Republican, thanks
Funny how you equate being called a liberal as an insult or personal attack...LOL... I wouldn't like it either. Otherwise, nuttin' personal, it's just generally when thread posters go on the attack and complain about the "Surge" that is usually equated to brain dead liberal party towing, sheep. And then otherwise, this statement wouldn't apply to you. Thanks
Brain dead? Most people that question and try to understand are exactly the opposite. Most people that take the "spoon-feeding", are the one's suffering from brain damage. It applies to both republicans and democrats.
You really aren't contributing here - you're fixed opinion and underlying blanket disgust for others is clear.
If you want to discuss the surge, feel free. Otherwise, I'd rather you stay off my thread.
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 12:06:20 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1633
Joined: 5/4/2005
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OK, let's discuss the SURGE - in a polite and respectful manner.
We all know John McCain defends the Surge and claims it worked.
Let me begin my attempt to discuss the Surge in a professional way with those here who defend McCain and/or the Surge by asking: what reasons do you offer to defend your assertion that the Surge has been a success?
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 12:09:37 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 856
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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Wanna know sumthin'? If it's working, good! I like it! If that troubles you, oh well, complain to your congressman.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
I've seen other stuff from the Times Online site out of London, UK. It doesn't seem any more credible than what might appear in the Enquirer, etc.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
[quote]ORIGINAL: davemiller7
I haven't heard anything about "paying off" insurgents. Now I realize that I lead a sheltered life: I don't read Rolling Stone or the NY Times, get my news from MSNBC or CNN, watch MTV or Homer Simpson, and I don't get my historical "facts" from Wikipedia. So where did you learn of the "pay off?"
-Dave
Take a look
I've made this point here previously as well.
What would you accept, a letter from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff? LOL
It's happening whether you like it or not.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 12:12:44 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1633
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Wanna know sumthin'? If it's working, good! I like it! If that troubles you, oh well, complain to your congressman.
-Dave
And if I ask you nicely whether you wish to debate the Surge, you will once again just refuse.
I am of the school of thought that if one will proclaim the veracity of certain claims, that one should at the very least have facts to support one's assertions.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 12:20:05 PM
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sylvan
Posts: 120
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Wanna know sumthin'? If it's working, good! I like it! If that troubles you, oh well, complain to your congressman.
-Dave
And if I ask you nicely whether you wish to debate the Surge, you will once again just refuse.
I am of the school of thought that if one will proclaim the veracity of certain claims, that one should at the very least have facts to support one's assertions.
I thought you asked very nicely RichLP. I agree too, if one has a strong opinion on something they should know why.
The more I looked into the "success" of the surge, I just couldn't see it. I really didn't want to talk about McCain (or Obama and the election) other than he continues to misrepresent the reality of the situation.
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 12:44:32 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 856
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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The surge (or whatever term you care to use) is working: incidents of violence and deaths are down, Iraqis are taking over more and more of the duties our troops were performing, Iraq's infrastructure is being rebuilt. Now, it doesn't matter that much to me whether we have "bribed" some groups, or it happened as a result of our military presence. What does matter to me is that fewer of our servicemen (and women) are being killed and kidnapped, and that more of them are coming home. Is that not a good thing?
I will not debate the issue of the morality of a "bribe" or "pay off." It simply doesn't matter to me. If that's what it takes to get the job done, so be it.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Wanna know sumthin'? If it's working, good! I like it! If that troubles you, oh well, complain to your congressman.
-Dave
And if I ask you nicely whether you wish to debate the Surge, you will once again just refuse.
I am of the school of thought that if one will proclaim the veracity of certain claims, that one should at the very least have facts to support one's assertions.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 12:46:08 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 390
Joined: 1/18/2008
Status: offline
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Newsweek - The Protection Business
Please accept the fact we're "surging" cash to them.
It would aid in rational discussion.
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 1:02:58 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1633
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
The surge (or whatever term you care to use) is working: incidents of violence and deaths are down, Iraqis are taking over more and more of the duties our troops were performing, Iraq's infrastructure is being rebuilt. Now, it doesn't matter that much to me whether we have "bribed" some groups, or it happened as a result of our military presence. What does matter to me is that fewer of our servicemen (and women) are being killed and kidnapped, and that more of them are coming home. Is that not a good thing?
I will not debate the issue of the morality of a "bribe" or "pay off." It simply doesn't matter to me. If that's what it takes to get the job done, so be it.
-Dave
NOW we're talking.
1. Incidents of violence and death are down
FACT: Iraqi civilians died more in the first four months of 2008 than from January to April 2005.
FACT: the number of attacks on US troops and Iraqi security forces has not decreased.
While it is true that there have been periods of time when violence was worse than it is right now in late July 2008, it is also true that we are at levels which were high before and which look "good" now only because they have been worse. In other words, McCain asserts that getting back to a level of slaughter that was once seen as extraordinarily high is "success."
In other words, rates of violence and death in Iraq remain very high, even if deaths of US soldiers have (thankfully) gone down. But even though deaths are down, overall casualties are not.
For more insight: compare the Iraqi quagmire to other civil conflicts.
- The Sri Lankan civil war killed an average of 233 people a month since 1983. That is half the average monthly casualties in Iraq recently.
- In 2007, the war in Afghanistan caused an average of 550 deaths monthly. This statistic is roughly equivalent to the recent death rate in Iraq.
- In 2006-2007, Somalia's death rate circled 300 each month - about 1/2 of 2008's monthly average in Iraq.
- 3 decades of violence in North Ireland killed about 3,000 dead. That's what we get every 5 months in Iraq.
In summary: violence may be down but it's still frighteningly high.
2. Iraqis are taking over more and more of the duties our troops were performing
FACT: the Shiites have taken over Baghdad, which was mostly Sunni pre-Surge. Baghdad witnessed ethnic cleansing. And with Shiites making up many of the government forces, it is easier for them to do their work.
3. Iraqi infrastructure being rebuilt
Electricity and running water are still not being provided 24 hours a day; especially electricity. Both have been and remain at levels far lower than the levels provided during the final years of Saddam Hussein's regime.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: McCain and the surge - 7/25/2008 1:27:01 PM
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freakofnature
Posts: 759
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Brain dead? Most people that question and try to understand are exactly the opposite.
There is no debate on this then. Otherwise, your finding support for your claims regarding payoff of insurgents, and there very well maybe, but I don't understand what the problem is... We can't have it both ways there sylvan. Either people die in continued heavy combat or we try other measures to try and slow down and halt the fighting. Which is it you want? Otherwise, I am happy that things are looking up in Iraq
Official report
Now if I'm not contributing to your thread and disputing your "facts" then I guess we aren't really having a debate and your attempts then are to merely close the "debate" to others not holding your view of the situation. Have your cake and eat it too I think is the term. Enjoy your cake.
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