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Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/11/2008 1:16:28 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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From: a mother who let me live
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First, I recognize that some people are displaced by hardship and are put out of their homes and jobs, placed in the position I am asking about through no fault of their own. These are not the ones I am asking about. I ask about people who choose this way of life.
In my capacity as administrative assistant to the pastor of a church, I receive many requests for help. The puzzling request I receive once in awhile is from believers who live out of RVs and travel cross-country, living on no income and no savings but on the kindness and contributions of strangers.
These people will go from state to state, town to town, church to church, asking for food, clothing, gas money, a place to live in their campers for a week or more, etc. Sometimes, they will just park in the parking lot without a word. They do this on the basis that they are believers, so the church should supply their needs. When there are no supplies, they are usually gracious and move on, but their verbal reasonings to me are interesting.
They believe that it is a good thing for them to live this way, that G-d smiles upon their lifestyle, that G-d expects believers to supply their needs, and that it is the individual's or church's chance to serve G-d by giving to them. Often, they tell me that the large churches are not givers, while the small churches will give generously.
I am asking for opinions on the above, for ideas, and about what you do with regard to such persons.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/11/2008 1:29:06 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1090
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Those that go from place to place and rely on the kindness of strangers for support while doing nothing for it have a few names:
Freeloader
Bum
I Corinthinas 4:11-12 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; [12] And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it
Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
I Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/11/2008 1:46:01 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2441
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They are bums. I don't help bums. God never instructed "me" or the church to provide for bums.
Helping the truly needy and supporting the kingdom's work suffer when we support bums.
These people are also selfish and greedy. They won't care for themselves much less for someone who "really" needs help.
quote:
Often, they tell me that the large churches are not givers, while the small churches will give generously.
Because large churches are hit up so many times they have some requirements for the asker to meet. Bums don't like that. They want quick money. Smaller churches often have only one or two people who are in charge of benevolance and no checks and balances system in place. They give out help as the "feel".
Checks and balances in the larger churches helps to cut out the giving assistance to bums.
< Message edited by P31W -- 6/11/2008 1:56:02 PM >
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/11/2008 3:17:12 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 653
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Maybe your church could have a policy for these specific bums: If you are willing to labor for the church (mowing yard, cleaning bathrooms, vacuuming floors, etc.), we will be happy to provide you a small compensation of sandwiches, and consider your work a great contribution to the Body of Christ. Thanks for giving of your labors in this way and supplying our needs! 
This is a great idea... however, it is my experience that these folks will tell you about their bad back or their inflamed bunions!
Seriously.... I have dealt with this a lot in our prior church... and I have found that 8 out of 10 of these folks are drug addicts. They trade their kids food stamps for drugs and spend their relief money on more drugs. When we went through the fires in So Cal... you would find them in every line available giving 3 or 4 addresses in order to get what they could.
They "PREY" on churches because we're suppose to have 'good hearts'... yet if we say our pantry's are empty... they will walk away cussing you under their breath.
I have seen the same people come back again and again, and those like them. They don't want a "hand up" as my husband and I call it.... they want a "hand out." They say... "oh, I know I need to get back in church, and I'll be here on Sunday." Right. You never see them again... until they need food or a bill paid.
They don't want Jesus... just His kindness, and then they drop Him like a rock.
BUT... there are some who are sincere. Do we turn them all away or help them all???? I think crankius has the answer. Those who are sincere... will do what is asked of them with grateful hearts.
We are called to serve the orphans and the widows... the homeless, etc. But we are not called to enable drug addicts and those who prey on the church.
Just my opinion....
Pastor Debi
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/11/2008 8:42:24 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Well, thank you for putting my head back on straight regarding this issue. They come across as so sweet, so loving, so gentle, so believer-ish. They know their Bibles, they trust so deeply in the L-rd, and it appears that He does help them in amazing ways...
But I can't help but worry that I would be an enabler to help them.
As I mentioned, I turn to Love, INC (http://www.loveinthenameofchrist.org/) for help most of the time, but this time, because of their attitudes, if I'd had something to help them with, I would have fallen for them and helped.
Crankius, I am going to pay attention to what you said. Sometimes, I feel like I make up the office rules day by day, but hey -- this will work for me. I will look into it tomorrow and set up policy.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/11/2008 9:08:49 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1089
Joined: 4/29/2005
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Some people are traveling ministers. These people have powerful ministries, preach the gospel and show up at your Church with a new convert or two to join your body before they head out. They are worthy of their "hire" and should be supported both by their home Church and by believers in the local area where they are currently ministering.
Some people are itinerant workers, seeking bits and scraps of jobs (or charity when available) to get by in a reasonable way. These are worthy of a reasonable job to do and something reasonable in return for that -- fair enough.
Some people are having a free vacation -- the Church does not need to fund that.
Also, some people are damaged. There is a degree of emotional damage, poor choices etc. that a person can get most of the way out of if they will just pull on their own boot straps. There are also people who are beyond that. They are stuck in their problems beyond their own strength to get out of. Maybe it is beyond them to 'give it to the Lord' and rely on Him just yet. Maybe you are a part of how the Lord wants to intervene in some of these situations. Keep an eye out for these people -- sometimes they look a lot like the freeloader type -- but that's why we have the good ol' Holy Spirit... He's not our helper, He's our Lord, so we ought to pay attention.
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/12/2008 1:53:07 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1589
Joined: 1/22/2008
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quote:
They believe that it is a good thing for them to live this way, that G-d smiles upon their lifestyle, that G-d expects believers to supply their needs, and that it is the individual's or church's chance to serve G-d by giving to them.
This attitude seems to be very prevalent within the body of Christ. I am always reminded of the Apostle Paul's words to the Thessalonians.
"nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we might not be a burden to any of you" IIThess 3:8
While you have Christian travellers, we live in the midst of Christian's who believe they have the right to have children at public expense. So they have child, after child, after child, after child and the American tax
dollars are paying for their groceries, their dental, their vision, and all their doctor expenses. (At least in our state they are.) The family I know the best had a child in the hospital and made the decision to have her stay an extra day because they couldn't arrange childcare otherwise. When it doesn't come out of your pocket, those are the decisions people make. And all the while they claim Christ's name.
Yet Paul makes it clear we are not to be a burden to anyone and we are to pay our own way. Too many hands are out. No, it is not Christ's way. I think you have to say 'no'. I guess if there are tasks they can do to earn their keep, that's great. But I think handouts are for the needy, not the greedy.
my thoughts. . .
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/12/2008 11:38:03 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11524
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quote:
While you have Christian travellers,
Well, "traveller" was the first word that passed through my mind...but "Christian" didn't enter it at all.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/12/2008 12:01:09 PM
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Focusing
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If someone is able to work and support themselves, they most certainly need to do so.
I don't understand those who feel it's their right to kick back and travel around and expect everyone else to support them. IMO, it's irresponsible.
_____________________________
"Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
Hebrews 12:14
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/12/2008 7:29:47 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1589
Joined: 1/22/2008
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quote:
If someone is able to work and support themselves, they most certainly need to do so.
This is one of the most needful messages in the church today. Judgment begins with the household of God and I think God is getting angry. So instead of our own sin, we focus on the heathen, the pagans around us. Convenient, isn't it.
The messages in Revelation were to the churches. Oh that we had ears and were listening to hear what the Spirit is saying.
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/12/2008 7:47:52 PM
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gmedifast
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quote:
Also, some people are damaged. There is a degree of emotional damage, poor choices etc. that a person can get most of the way out of if they will just pull on their own boot straps. There are also people who are beyond that. They are stuck in their problems beyond their own strength to get out of. Maybe it is beyond them to 'give it to the Lord' and rely on Him just yet. Maybe you are a part of how the Lord wants to intervene in some of these situations. Keep an eye out for these people -- sometimes they look a lot like the freeloader type -- but that's why we have the good ol' Holy Spirit... He's not our helper, He's our Lord, so we ought to pay attention.
Well first and foremost, I would have to say that if they show up wanting to park their RV's etc, and expect you to feed cloth and provide for them while they enjoy a life of Luxery, what I would suggest you do, if this is a big problem, tell them that it is okay for them part their RV in the church yard but let them know that as long as they are there you need yard work done, flower beds groomed, hedges clipped, walls need to be painted. I would imagine that their little "vacation" would end suddenly and they would be no more. Of coarse I am being sarcastic I know that there would be issues galore if you started this. Maybe just let them know that you only allow such hook-ups for visiting pastors and special guest and keep handy the local RV parks address and numbers.
We as ministers are in the people business but people can make you weary!!!!
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/12/2008 10:04:13 PM
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jn1010lf
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Hello Covaan_Meshuga
I would tell such people to get a job and support themselves. No church is under any obligation to support moochers. God told Adam and Eve to multiply and be fruitful. I take that to personally productive.
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/13/2008 1:00:17 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3505
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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I'll admit it: I am a push-over. Someone comes along with a sad story, and I am likely to help, unless i catch them in a lie; then I go ballistic. It is difficult for me to turn people down, yet in my job, I must turn people down throughout the week -- sometimes even people I think may be actually worthy of help -- and it is hard.
I really appreciate all the suggestings here. I have not had time this week (horridly busy) to set policy yet, but when I can, all your suggestions will help me do it.
There is only room for about 18 cars inside the lot but plenty of diagonal parking is provided around the perimeter of the facility, to accommodate cars. However, one of the things I had to learn last year is that if I allow a camper to stay in our small parking lot one day, they will stay two and try to wring out another. We have had to limit overnight stays to members only, so that is in place -- and we have set a time-limit.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/15/2008 5:17:25 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2578
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
However, one of the things I had to learn last year is that if I allow a camper to stay in our small parking lot one day, they will stay two and try to wring out another
Leadership must come up with a policy, so it isn't your decision alone.
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/17/2008 5:49:15 PM
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dramagal
Posts: 103
Joined: 10/23/2005
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quote:
"nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we might not be a burden to any of you" IIThess 3:8
I think you should have this verse written out nicely - or typed up - and put on the wall, or on a card standing next to your desk where people can see it.
Then you can point the verse out to people who "know their Bible verses" but seem to have overlooked this one. Seriously, if the moocher is going to throw a Bible verse at you about being giving to Christian travellers, you can show them this verse.
. . . as well as Bro Shane's verses:
quote:
Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
I Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
Or maybe a little application form could be made up:
Name, age, date of birth, place of birth,
Reason for request for financial or material aid,
2 Thes. verse from above,
Work that I promise to perform in exchange for the aid.
Then you could hand it out with a smile. "Oh, my, what wonderful stories you have to tell of G-d's people! We'd love to help you. Would you please fill out this form first? We need to make sure that with our limited resources we're helping the people the Lord wants us to help. Thank you."
You might add a small testimony space on your form, but who knows what lie they'd spin? I've come across some people like this, and they've learned the lingo and what stories touch people's hearts, so it could all be lies anyway.
(I admit that some might be genuine Christians, although misguided, like my friend's aunt who thought she had a right to "glean" from produce sections at the grocery store and salad bars, etc. - just cruising along, eating whatever she wanted.)
_____________________________
Who let the wild donkey go free? Job 39:5.
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/17/2008 7:33:19 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3505
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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The last two weeks have been difficult because they have been very busy, but I really like all the suggestions you have all been so kind to give me. I fully intend to implement almost everything that has been suggested so far.
Next week should be slower. I will let you know what I do.
Again, thank you, everyone!!
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/18/2008 4:37:53 PM
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JimboFletch
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I've had a couple of pastors tell that they never, ever give money to these wanderers. If they say they need money for food, medicine, gas, etc., the pastors will offer to take them to the store and purchase what they need. That usually weeds out the "bums" because they want money to waste on things they would never ask from a church.
WARNING: When offered goods instead of money, some of them turn from sweet, soft-spoken travellers to angry people with a vocabulary like a drunken sailor.
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RE: Need help understanding a concept and expectations - 6/18/2008 5:58:15 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3505
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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Right!! I never give money, but I have given gas- and grocery-cards on rare occasion. Most of the time, since both a gas statin and a grocery store are just a block away, I take them up and buy what they need using the cards.
And yes, I have had my life threatened when someone asked for money, I said that there was none left for giving, and the guy told me to take it from my purse. He was in the parking lot, and I was talking to him from my office window.
Then you have others -- gotta tell you about this man. He dropped his wallet and drove away from the gas pump. My husband picked up the wallet and called him. He wanted to give my husband something for returning it, but my husband refused. He insisted. My husband told him that if he wished, he could send a contribution to my husband's church.
I am the pastor's administrative assistant here, as I said. Today, and unknown man dropped by with a card for the pastor. The pastor opened the card. It was from the man. Not just a card but also a cashier's check for $350 for the church ministry.
One of this type of person makes up for a whole lot of the other kind!
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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