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Non-denominational churches - 8/21/2008 10:47:20 PM
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cih92
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Just out of curiosity, how many non-denominational churches do you know of that agree with the Reformed faith in matters of the sovereignty of God and salvation, but disagree with the Reformed faith in other matters? I attend a church like this. I am wondering how many non-denominational churches are like this.
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/23/2008 11:25:08 AM
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drmark
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I have read from knowledgeable theologians that essentially all American RT has been strongly Arminianized, especially from the Great Revivals of the late 1800s. Since all 5 points of "TULIP" Calvinism pretty much focus on sovereignty and salvation, what "other matters of Reformed faith" are you wishing to discuss, cih?
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/24/2008 9:04:22 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
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The church is always one generation away from apostasy. This means that all of us are responsible for studying The Word of God and seeking the Holy Spirits guidance in it's teachings. Thus accepting God's promise that "the counselor" will teach us all things.
The church I attend is a Restoration Movement church. During the past few years I have studied the Restoration Movement in depth. These brave men passionately sought the Bible and it's teachings above Reformed Theology and Arminian Theology. In my study I have began to realize just how much "yeast" from both theologies have been adopted by so many people, thus tainting the Gospel.
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/24/2008 9:30:35 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
In my study I have began to realize just how much "yeast" from both theologies have been adopted by so many people, thus tainting the Gospel.
Could you please be a little more specific?
Like; What yeast and taint are you referrencing.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/25/2008 9:51:30 AM
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buckifn
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The only "reformed faith" I know is Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and risen on the 3rd day. That's enough for me.
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/25/2008 12:17:28 PM
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drmark
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Interesting, buckifn. Satan knows these historical facts as well, and it's not enough to save him. What's the difference?
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/30/2008 2:12:25 PM
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drmark
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quote:
quote:
In my study I have began to realize just how much "yeast" from both theologies have been adopted by so many people, thus tainting the Gospel.
Could you please be a little more specific?
Like; What yeast and taint are you referrencing. Apparently FolkSingerBlues does not consider his "study" results worth sharing. I was also hoping to see specific "yeast and taint" from Arminian theology since I personally find little, if any, deficiencies in my denomination's Gospel teaching.
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/30/2008 3:31:14 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
quote:
In my study I have began to realize just how much "yeast" from both theologies have been adopted by so many people, thus tainting the Gospel.
Could you please be a little more specific?
Like; What yeast and taint are you referrencing. Apparently FolkSingerBlues does not consider his "study" results worth sharing. I was also hoping to see specific "yeast and taint" from Arminian theology since I personally find little, if any, deficiencies in my denomination's Gospel teaching.
Folksingerblues did send me a PM detailing his answer to my question; he said he did not want to post it for fear the thread would get sent to a black hole of a one stop thread.
So in deference to his request, I will not post the answer either.
Thsnks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/30/2008 3:49:09 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Folksingerblues did send me a PM detailing his answer to my question; he said he did not want to post it for fear the thread would get sent to a black hole of a one stop thread. I wonder what that "black hole of a one stop thread" might be. 
Well, hopefully he will see this and feel led to PM me. Thanks for the update!
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/30/2008 8:08:19 PM
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cih92
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I have read from knowledgeable theologians that essentially all American RT has been strongly Arminianized, especially from the Great Revivals of the late 1800s. Since all 5 points of "TULIP" Calvinism pretty much focus on sovereignty and salvation, what "other matters of Reformed faith" are you wishing to discuss, cih?
I disagree with the Reformed view of baptism. I believe that only those who have professed faith in Christ should be baptized. I don't believe in infant baptism. The Reformed faith affirms infant baptism.
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/30/2008 10:55:10 PM
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Stephanos
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not everyone in the reformed camp supports pedobaptism. Off the top of my head I can give you several big names, John MacArthur, John Piper, Albert Mohler, Charles Spurgeon...
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/31/2008 8:56:54 AM
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drmark
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Since I am unfamiliar with this practice as it relates to RT, would someone please explain how infant baptism is viewed relative to unconditional election. What would be its purpose?
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/31/2008 1:09:22 PM
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zoebob
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I"ll try but I'm sure someone else will do a better job.
RT folks often believe that God works in families and chooses whole families(for the most part). Because we believe this, we raise our children assuming they are already disciples of CHrist and that they will one day develop a personal relationship with HIm. SInce God knows from conception who is his then they are His from birth so paedobaptism is a sign of our children being disciples of God and part of his covenant familiy. Do all children baptized as infants comt go God: of course not. however, not all who are baptized as "believers" really are either.
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/31/2008 4:39:13 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
I"ll try but I'm sure someone else will do a better job.
RT folks often believe that God works in families and chooses whole families(for the most part). Because we believe this, we raise our children assuming they are already disciples of CHrist and that they will one day develop a personal relationship with HIm. SInce God knows from conception who is his then they are His from birth so paedobaptism is a sign of our children being disciples of God and part of his covenant familiy. Do all children baptized as infants comt go God: of course not. however, not all who are baptized as "believers" really are either.
I go to an Anglican church that practices infant baptism and what she nicely summed up is what we believe. Is that infant baptism is a covenant making cermony where the child is presented into a community of faith, The hope is as the child grows in that community he/she will make a personal decision for Christ and follow in believer's baptism.
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/31/2008 4:40:07 PM
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drmark
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Okay, thanks, zoebob and colliefan. Simply sounds like a wet infant dedication to this Wesleyan/Arminian! 
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 8/31/2008 4:50:40 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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drmark,
I tried to send you a QM but it says your box is full.
When the Bible is held as the only standard for faith and practice that leaves both Reformed Theology and Arminianist Theology with points that do not fully align with the Bible unless the assumptions presented within them are held to.
Within our churches the "yeast" or Arminianism and Calvinism has become somewhat of a "hybrid" among some of it's members. In fact it is my OPINION that the Restoration Movement churches has lost touch with their identity allowing that "hybrid" to happen.
So in reference to the OP, there are no doubt that aspects of Reformed Theology have Scriptural truth to them, however the systematic assumptions that one has to hold to in order for that theology to "work" requires accepting many things upon opinion.
In reference to God's sovereignty we most definitely believe in his sovereignty but not to the explanation that Reformed Theology gives. In reference to sovereignty in salvation we also believe that, but not as it is defined in Reformed Theology.
I'm sorry for the ambiguity of my post, I ask that we not debate these points specifically in order to keep this thread going. Furthermore the Christian Churches and Churches of Christ do not consider themselves "denominations" (that is an argument for another thread) however the Disciples of Christ Christian Churches do acknowledge themselves as a denomination.
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 9/1/2008 9:28:04 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I tried to send you a QM but it says your box is full. Oops, I just assumed virtual space was unlimited. I've cleaned it up for future PMs.
quote:
When the Bible is held as the only standard for faith and practice that leaves both Reformed Theology and Arminianist Theology with points that do not fully align with the Bible unless the assumptions presented within them are held to. The historical outcome of the Synod of Dort indicates that the Remonstrants Five Points were all Biblically sound. I would be interested in hearing privately from you regarding any specific teachings of Arminius that you feel "do not fully align with the Bible".
quote:
Within our churches the "yeast" or Arminianism and Calvinism has become somewhat of a "hybrid" among some of it's members. I agree, most American RT is strongly Arminianized as I posted earlier. Is that not likely due to the correct Scriptural support for Arminian theology?
quote:
In fact it is my OPINION that the Restoration Movement churches has lost touch with their identity allowing that "hybrid" to happen. I know very little about the Restoration Movement except that the original intent was to abolish denominationalism in order to foster a spirit of unity within the Church. (Did I get that right?) In light of the OP, it seeems quite relevant to the topic if you would share some of the original doctrine of the Restoration Movement for us to see how it differs from Reformed and Arminian theologies.
quote:
In reference to God's sovereignty we most definitely believe in his sovereignty but not to the explanation that Reformed Theology gives. In reference to sovereignty in salvation we also believe that, but not as it is defined in Reformed Theology. This sounds very "Arminian", FSB! I eagerly await additional beliefs of your "non-denomination".
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 9/1/2008 10:50:11 AM
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cih92
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
not everyone in the reformed camp supports pedobaptism. Off the top of my head I can give you several big names, John MacArthur, John Piper, Albert Mohler, Charles Spurgeon...
Those men agree with the Reformed view of salvation, but disagree with the Reformed view of baptism.
Reformed theology is much more than the five points of Calvinism. In addition to the five points of Calvinism, Reformed theology teaches covenant theology, infant baptism, the regulative principle of worship, and so on.
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 9/1/2008 11:33:30 AM
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drmark
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quote:
In addition to the five points of Calvinism, Reformed theology teaches covenant theology, infant baptism, the regulative principle of worship, and so on. If Stephanos is correct, there are some pretty big Reformed theologians who disgree with you on at least one issue of doctrine, cih! Maybe RT is a little broader than you think (somewhat akin to broad AT!).
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 9/1/2008 2:15:31 PM
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Stephanos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
In addition to the five points of Calvinism, Reformed theology teaches covenant theology, infant baptism, the regulative principle of worship, and so on. If Stephanos is correct, there are some pretty big Reformed theologians who disgree with you on at least one issue of doctrine, cih! Maybe RT is a little broader than you think (somewhat akin to broad AT!).
Cih92, my point was exactly that those men are (were in the case of Charles Spurgeon) strong 5 point Calvinists, thus are in the reformed camp, but they DO reject pedobaptism. Personally I too hold to such a position. In fact, there is a growing number of baptist reformers who hold to a Reformed soteriological stance, but also hold to believers baptism.
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 9/1/2008 3:20:44 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
The "black hole of a one-stop thread" mentioned earlier is the Calvinism thread (although a fresh one was started a week or so ago, so it isn't that large right now.)
Please take *all* discussion of Calvinism/Arminianism to that thread.
Thanks.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 9/1/2008 10:44:27 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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The Restoration Movement in a nutshell can be summed up in "Where the Bible speaks, we speak. Where the Bible is silent, we are silent"..and "In faith unity, in opinion, liberty; and in all things chartity." Of course as with everything else, it's simplicity has become complicated by such questions as "Does the silence of Scripture speak as loudly as where it speaks?" And "What are we at liberty to believe?"
Basically the Restoration Movements soul purpose is the study of Scripture and use to follow it as closely as possible to the first century.
There are many misconstrued ideas about the Restoration Movement. I would recommend you to look into the movement for yourself. Interestingly enough we AREN'T the "denomination" that believes that you're going to hell if you're not baptized...however we do practice baptism for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 9/1/2008 11:02:59 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I would recommend you to look into the movement for yourself. Thanks, but I really don't have time to be chasing down potential dead ends. Can you just simply outline a few of the Movement's positions that disagree with basic Reformed Theology as requested in the OP? Or maybe a useful website that summarizes generally accepted doctrine?
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 9/1/2008 11:17:26 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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I have a couple of things you can look into that aren't dead ends at all.
Google
"The Last Will and Testament of the Springfield Presbytery"
And
"The Paraphrase of
THOMAS CAMPBELL'S
DECLARATION AND ADDRESS "
I think you will be pleasantly surprised
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My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Non-denominational churches - 9/1/2008 11:48:54 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I think you will be pleasantly surprised Wow, I am surprised, but not pleasantly! Perhaps I'm overreacting, but I had no idea there was such a Christian Movement that appears to me to advocate total anarchy, complete disinterest in Church tradition, and gross misunderstanding of the evangelical emphasis of many denominations. But thanks for the links, FSB; however, they fail to distinguish any major doctrinal differences from the C/A debate that I can see.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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