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Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 1:52:48 PM
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todd_t
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There's a bit of furor in right-wing blogs over claims that Obama lied on Saturday in his interview with CBN reporter David Brody:
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/08/obama_continues.html
However, after reading the following, I'm a bit confused:
The Chicago Tribune reported [8/17/04], "'For more than 20 years, Illinois law has required that when 'there is a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support,' an abortion may only be performed if a physician believes 'it is necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother.' And in such cases, the law requires that the doctor use the technique 'most likely to preserve the life and health of the fetus' and perform the abortion in the presence of 'a physician other than the physician performing or inducing the abortion who shall take control of and provide immediate medical care for any child born alive as a result of the abortion.'"
Here is the IL legal language in question:
The Illinois Compiled Statutes stated that any physician who intentionally performs an abortion when, in his medical judgment based on the particular facts of the case before him, there is a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support, shall utilize that method of abortion which, of those he knows to be available, is in his medical judgment most likely to preserve the life and health of the fetus. No abortion shall be performed or induced when the fetus is viable unless there is in attendance a physician other than the physician performing or inducing the abortion who shall take control of and provide immediate medical care for any child born alive as a result of the abortion. Subsequent to the abortion, if a child is born alive, the physician required to be in attendance shall exercise the same degree of professional skill, care and diligence to preserve the life and health of the child as would be required of a physician providing immediate medical care to a child born alive in the course of a pregnancy termination which was not an abortion. Violation of these statutes constituted a Class 3 felony.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/072005100K6.htm
If so, why the need for the Born Alive Act in Illinois if legal protections for such "botched abortion" circumstances already existed?
What am I missing (if anything)?
< Message edited by todd_t -- 8/19/2008 2:00:37 PM >
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:17:27 PM
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Dubya
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I guess an equally relevant question would be why wasn't this statute being enforced?
The reason new legislation was being proposed was that there was a problem, as documented by witnesses.
I think this may be a little beside the point since this is not why Obama opposed the legislation.
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:25:03 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
The reason new legislation was being proposed was that there was a problem, as documented by witnesses.
What problem? The statute's language seems direct enough.
quote:
I think this may be a little beside the point since this is not why Obama opposed the legislation.
That's just it: why would Obama even want to oppose the Born Alive Act if legal protections for the circumstances it noted were already in place?
Plus, I don't see a threat in the statute toward undoing Roe.
What's missing here? It makes zero sense to create a new bill banning something that is already illegal.
< Message edited by todd_t -- 8/19/2008 2:31:04 PM >
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:30:13 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
The reason new legislation was being proposed was that there was a problem, as documented by witnesses.
What problem? The statute's language seems direct enough.
quote:
I think this may be a little beside the point since this is not why Obama opposed the legislation.
That's just it: why would Obama even want to oppose the Born Alive Act if legal protections for the circumstances it noted were already in place?
What's missing here? It makes zero sense to create a new bill banning something that is already illegal.
What is missing is enforcement.
The problem I was referring to was the testimony given by the nurse. This was documented in the "Obama lied children died" thread.
The problem was not in the written law but the lack of enforcement in that law. Obama did not oppose the Born Alive Act because protections were already in place. He (Obama) stated the reason was because it went against the spirit of Roe.
I agree that yet another unenforced law is not the answer. But let's be honest. This was not why Obama opposed it.
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:32:30 PM
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davemiller7
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It seems to be that when a particular law is broken often, then legislators decide it's time to enact another law identical, or at least similar, to the original law that was being ignored (broken). Case in point: hate crime legislation. I.e. all states have murder laws, so why the need for additional hate crime murder laws?
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
I guess an equally relevant question would be why wasn't this statute being enforced?
The reason new legislation was being proposed was that there was a problem, as documented by witnesses.
I think this may be a little beside the point since this is not why Obama opposed the legislation.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:34:54 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
But let's be honest. This was not why Obama opposed it.
Sorry, I still don't get it. The statute had no language in it that threatened Roe. If it had, it never would have passed in the first place (or at least not in Illinois).
quote:
It seems to be that when a particular law is broken often, then legislators decide it's time to enact another law identical, or at least similar, to the original law that was being ignored (broken).
That makes no sense.
Why would this law (BAPA) have gotten out of committee then if it was so redundant? It should have been thrown out before the ink dried on the original bill.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:36:20 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
But let's be honest. This was not why Obama opposed it.
Sorry, I still don't get it. The statute had no language in it that threatened Roe. If it had, it never would have passed in the first place (or at least not in Illinois).
I guess that is something Obama needs to answer. All I know about are his public statements.
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:41:08 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
I guess that is something Obama needs to answer. All I know about are his public statements.
I am beginning to suspect Jill Stenek may be embellishing her stories (about holding aborted fetuses until they died) in order to bring public attention to a non-issue.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:42:50 PM
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SwedishCovenant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
If so, why the need for the Born Alive Act in Illinois if legal protections for such "botched abortion" circumstances already existed?
What am I missing (if anything)?
There was no need for the IL BAIPA in the legal sense, as you correctly pointed out. Not only was the matter fully addressed in already-existing Illinois law, but it was entirely redundant to Federal statute as well.
No legal need, IOW - which was the exact reason Obama voted against it.
What you are missing is that Illinois Republicans felt the POLITICAL need to have this stone axe ready - this was a gigantic troll from its get-go, and it happens that Obama is the one they are trying to club with their phony spin.
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:43:29 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
I guess that is something Obama needs to answer. All I know about are his public statements.
I am beginning to suspect Jill Stenek may be embellishing her stories (about holding aborted fetuses until they died) in order to bring public attention to a non-issue.
Wasn't there other witnesses that testified before the legislature?
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:44:56 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
No legal need, IOW - which was the exact reason Obama voted against it.
I missed that statement. When did he say that?
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:45:40 PM
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SwedishCovenant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
The reason new legislation was being proposed was that there was a problem, as documented by witnesses.
What problem? The statute's language seems direct enough.
quote:
I think this may be a little beside the point since this is not why Obama opposed the legislation.
That's just it: why would Obama even want to oppose the Born Alive Act if legal protections for the circumstances it noted were already in place?
What's missing here? It makes zero sense to create a new bill banning something that is already illegal.
What is missing is enforcement.
The problem I was referring to was the testimony given by the nurse. This was documented in the "Obama lied children died" thread.
The problem was not in the written law but the lack of enforcement in that law. Obama did not oppose the Born Alive Act because protections were already in place. He (Obama) stated the reason was because it went against the spirit of Roe.
I agree that yet another unenforced law is not the answer. But let's be honest. This was not why Obama opposed it.
That is twice now that you have asserted that clearly-stated Illinois law protecting the born-alive was not enforced. Would you care to provide some examples of that?
You've also no made the statement twice that Obama voted against IL-BAIPA for reasons other than the stated "it's already covered and therefore redundant" - maybe you could come up with a few examples supporting THAT assertion, as well.
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:49:25 PM
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SwedishCovenant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
No legal need, IOW - which was the exact reason Obama voted against it.
I missed that statement. When did he say that?
He DIDN'T say that - the minutes of the 6-4 committee vote rejecting the final version of IL-BAIPA specifically stated as much. And you are welcome to contact anyone who was on that committee (as I did - I happen to know one of Obama's REPUBLICAN fellow Senators), or write to the Illinois Senate secretary for the minutes of the meeting, if you care to argue objective fact.
Or for that matter
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:49:26 PM
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todd_t
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I don't know. I'll have to look into it further.
But unless I'm missing an outstanding detail the size of a Mack truck, the whole furor about this matter (by Stenek) seems like a very loud case of much ado about nothing.
And for the record, if any IL hospitals were in violation of the existing "born alive" statue, I wonder why they were not held accountable by the State's Attorney's Office?
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:50:35 PM
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SwedishCovenant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
I don't know. I'll have to look into it further.
But unless I'm missing an outstanding detail the size of a Mack truck, the whole furor about this matter (by Stenek) seems like a very loud case of much ado about nothing.
And for the record, if any IL hospitals were in violation of the existing "born alive" statue, I wonder why they were not held accountable by the State's Attorney's Office?
"I call your attention, Watson, to the strange thing that the dog did in the night."
"The dog did nothing in the night."
"Precisely. That was the strange thing."
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:51:03 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
I don't know. I'll have to look into it further.
But unless I'm missing an outstanding detail the size of a Mack truck, the whole furor about this matter (by Stenek) seems like a very loud case of much ado about nothing.
And for the record, if any IL hospitals were in violation of the existing "born alive" statue, I wonder why they were not held accountable by the State's Attorney's Office?
That would be my question as well.
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:55:42 PM
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SwedishCovenant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
I don't know. I'll have to look into it further.
But unless I'm missing an outstanding detail the size of a Mack truck, the whole furor about this matter (by Stenek) seems like a very loud case of much ado about nothing.
And for the record, if any IL hospitals were in violation of the existing "born alive" statue, I wonder why they were not held accountable by the State's Attorney's Office?
That would be my question as well.
Just a question - does the term 'subverted support' mean anything to you?
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:56:18 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
That would be my question as well.
Well, there are two possibilities: a) no one reported the illegal "born alive" circumstances to the authorities, or; b) the incidents that Jill Stenek and her supporters cited did not occur, or at least not in the way they claimed.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 2:56:55 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
I don't know. I'll have to look into it further.
But unless I'm missing an outstanding detail the size of a Mack truck, the whole furor about this matter (by Stenek) seems like a very loud case of much ado about nothing.
And for the record, if any IL hospitals were in violation of the existing "born alive" statue, I wonder why they were not held accountable by the State's Attorney's Office?
That would be my question as well.
Just a question - does the term 'subverted support' mean anything to you?
Please explain.
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 3:01:19 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
That would be my question as well.
Well, there are two possibilities: a) no one reported the illegal "born alive" circumstances to the authorities, or; b) the incidents that Jill Stenek and her supporters cited did not occur, or at least not in the way they claimed.
That sounds about right.
Since I don't live in Illinois, I know very little about this other than what has been on this forum and the little I recall from TV news.
Was there anyone disputing Stenek's testimony? What was said, if anything?
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 3:05:00 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
Was there anyone disputing Stenek's testimony? What was said, if anything?
I suspect the answers are buried in IL state committee transcripts. I'm not sure if they are available online or not.
But in my mind, all of the above raises significant doubts about Stenek's criticisms of Obama's state voting record on this matter.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 3:06:35 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
Was there anyone disputing Stenek's testimony? What was said, if anything?
I suspect the answers are buried in IL state committee transcripts. I'm not sure if they are available online or not.
How do you interpret the story posted in the first link of the "Obama lied, children died" thread?
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 3:08:29 PM
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SwedishCovenant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
I don't know. I'll have to look into it further.
But unless I'm missing an outstanding detail the size of a Mack truck, the whole furor about this matter (by Stenek) seems like a very loud case of much ado about nothing.
And for the record, if any IL hospitals were in violation of the existing "born alive" statue, I wonder why they were not held accountable by the State's Attorney's Office?
That would be my question as well.
Just a question - does the term 'subverted support' mean anything to you?
Please explain.
"Don't recognize the term", then. Thanks for clarifying.
http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/subsup.htm
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 3:12:06 PM
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todd_t
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quote:
How do you interpret the story posted in the first link of the "Obama lied, children died" thread?
With confusion, because when one takes into account the prior "Born Alive" IL statute, none of the "controversy" the article cites about Obama makes any sense.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Obama's Vote on IL Born Alive Protection Act - 8/19/2008 3:13:19 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
I don't know. I'll have to look into it further.
But unless I'm missing an outstanding detail the size of a Mack truck, the whole furor about this matter (by Stenek) seems like a very loud case of much ado about nothing.
And for the record, if any IL hospitals were in violation of the existing "born alive" statue, I wonder why they were not held accountable by the State's Attorney's Office?
That would be my question as well.
Just a question - does the term 'subverted support' mean anything to you?
Please explain.
"Don't recognize the term", then. Thanks for clarifying.
http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/subsup.htm
Thanks for the link.
I am still not sure what you are implying. Are you saying that asking why an existing statute is not being enforced is somehow fallacious?
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