|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Rome fell - 6/24/2008 8:23:55 AM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1570
Status: offline
|
Can we compare America to the fall of Rome? What do you think God's role was in the fall of Rome? Are we seeing His hand presently swiping America?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/24/2008 9:59:07 AM
|
|
|
BerianAardvark
Posts: 371
Joined: 5/10/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Can we compare America to the fall of Rome? What do you think God's role was in the fall of Rome? Are we seeing His hand presently swiping America?
It is difficult to compare the two, we are too close in time and emotion to America to view it in the same perspective with Rome.
Rome provided a social matrix for the spread of the Gospel. The "Pax Romano" (Roman peace) together with the Roman transportation infrastructure (roads and sea lanes) provided unequaled (until modern times) opportunity to travel freely thus allowing the rapid spread of the Gospel, and the near universality of the languages of the Empire, Greek for trade commerce and culture, Latin for law and government, allowed those spreading the Gospel to communicate more freely. There is archeological evidence of trade with China, the British Isles, the southern parts of Africa, areas which were not part of the Roman Empire contained at least some people (merchants/traders if nothing else) who spoke Greek and brought their ideas with them.
Rome also was a very amoral culture, and with their great successes came even greater excesses.
God didn't have to do much to bring about Rome's fall. All God needed to do was lower the "hedge of protection" and the peoples around Rome who envied the wealth, did the rest.
There may or may not be parallels...time will provide the answer and perspective to allow objective analysis.
My statements on the Roman Empire are very much oversimplified, off the top of my head, and describe things that took place over about 400 years (the "official" date of the fall of Rome is about 476 AD.)
Hopefully this helps a bit,
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/24/2008 1:45:50 PM
|
|
|
LCannon
Posts: 1274
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
Status: offline
|
Well put Berian.(I love our avatar!) Uncounted factors contribute to the rise and fall of kingdoms. Probably the single grace of North America's is our missionary effort and the generosity nature of it's people. God 'used' Rome, and after that the Grecian cultures, to spread the gospel in relative safety using their vast network of roads. We tend to forget that Asia, South America, Africa and even the Middle East is experiencing the greatest influx of Christian conversion. In the last 100 years there's been more conversions(by far)then in recorded history.
Romans 9:18-"So then, He has mercy on whom He desires and He hardens whom He desires based on our response to circumstance 19 yet we still whine when our circumstance isn’t what we think we deserve for disobedience; our own, on another’s part or just life experience, can be uncomfortable when we resist His will. 20 It’s selfish to assume life experience will proceed in our limited imagination 21 for a creator molds vessels designed for a specific use. 22 Some are designed to show even the Glory of God, some to be used and used up, to illuminate and make His Glory known in endurance with patience in wrath prepared for destruction. 23 He does so and makes the riches of His Glory vessels of His obedience which He prepared in advance for that very purpose."
That goes for cultures, too.
< Message edited by LCannon -- 6/24/2008 2:11:52 PM >
_____________________________
"Many of our prayers are for an easy solution. God is more glorifed in Him
when souls exhibit His Grace under pressure." -Elisabeth Elliot-
"But at my stumbling they gathered in glee...[but]How long, O Lord,
wilt thou look on?" -Psalms 35:15-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/24/2008 2:54:40 PM
|
|
|
thorkraki
Posts: 100
Joined: 6/17/2008
Status: offline
|
As an ancient historian (I have a doctorate in it), I want to point out that the immoral period of ancient Rome was in the late Republic and early Empire, from about 150 BC to about 200 AD. This is the period when orgies, sexual promiscuity, the gladiatorial games, etc. were at their height.
The emperors and most of the government were Christian for nearly two centuries before the Empire in the West fell in 476 AD. The public immorality of the earlier period was already gone (of course, there was still the same common immorality that any human nation has).
The main reasons for the fall of the Empire were incursions by foreign "barbarian" populations, which originally entered at the invitation of the emperor. This was combined with a collapse of the over-extended military, incredibly high inflation over a period of a century, and pressures on the borders of the Empire.
While some of these may be analogous to some development in the USA today, I do not think that it is a parallel, and I do not think that the USA is in imminent danger of falling.
Thor
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/24/2008 4:11:11 PM
|
|
|
LCannon
Posts: 1274
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
Status: offline
|
quote:
And at the same time America has become one of the largest mission fields! Today we actually have more people come here as missionaries than we send out.
However, the missionaries coming here and coming to the immigrate population are largely funded by North American churches and mission organizations.
PS: I remember the 'Ant and the Aardvark' on the Pink Panther show, probably the only redeeming quality at least the most noteworthy.
_____________________________
"Many of our prayers are for an easy solution. God is more glorifed in Him
when souls exhibit His Grace under pressure." -Elisabeth Elliot-
"But at my stumbling they gathered in glee...[but]How long, O Lord,
wilt thou look on?" -Psalms 35:15-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/24/2008 9:02:40 PM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 3628
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
|
Eventually all powers fall.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/25/2008 7:58:11 AM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1570
Status: offline
|
quote:
The main reasons for the fall of the Empire were incursions by foreign "barbarian" populations, which originally entered at the invitation of the emperor. This was combined with a collapse of the over-extended military, incredibly high inflation over a period of a century, and pressures on the borders of the Empire.
This bears a striking resemblance to America.
I really have to wonder here. If we look at it from a spiritual perspective.. Pride comes before the fall, then we see that Rome did indeed fall, not only because of it's arrogance, but also the disobedience.
We see a similar example with Sodom and Gomorrah, they didn't just fall, they were wiped out.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/25/2008 5:35:26 PM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 3628
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
|
There are barbarians invading our country?
I don't think some guy sneaking over the border trying to find work as a barbarian.
Soddom and Gommorah. Its no wonder people are so infatuated with the end times stuff when America...is portrayed in any fashion....as Soddom and Gommorah.
In a free society, some things are going to happen that will not satisfy anyone. While I believe it is our right and responsibility as christians to influence the world around us, politicall and socially, to charatorize America as Soddom and Gommorah is to define it unfairly and to lessen the severity of the social decay of those cities.
There are problems in America and there alwasy will be until Jesus comes back.
I remember the economic and social maliase of the 70's. Nixon, Ford, Carter, the true recession, the drug culture, the "love ins", changing morays. Truly a much more closer resemblence to those famed biblical cities than today.
What happened? A true leader came along. Neither Bush or Clinton came close to the leadership we enjoyed under Reagan. He changed our nation.
It can happen again.
That is the major difference between us and Rome. Our government can change, and does, regularily, without bloodshed.
There are social destructors acting out in our nation. The divorce rate. Single parenthood. The villification of...fatherhood....stay at home mom's...the work ethic....self reliance.....militant pacifism and enviromentalism....and the perversion of christianity by legalists and those who do not believe in the inerrency of the bible.
Rome really fell from within.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/25/2008 8:28:54 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1570
Status: offline
|
quote:
There are barbarians invading our country?
I don't think some guy sneaking over the border trying to find work as a barbarian.
LOLOLOLOL. Yes, it was a stretch. The drug runners invading everyday are barbaric though..... Just look at the gangs in LA.
quote:
Rome really fell from within.
We are falling from within too. Look at the moral decline of America. Look at how families so easily fall apart because divorces are a dime a dozen. Look at how frequently children get new daddy's becasue the old one left. Look at how easily God has been removed for fear of offending people. No more remembering the fear of God. No more searching for validation from the Father but let's seek validation from every Tom, Dick and Harry. And then cry and scream because we don't know who our children' daddy really is and how we are going to feed these children. Let's live off the system and then complain that it doesn't do enough. Where has all our brilliance with technology gotten us. Prideful, arrogant and a country still in need of others countries resources. Resources we can provide our selves, yet our government is determined to keep us indebted to foreign oil and giving our land to China in lieu of payments that we owe them. The greatest country in the world is in a debt it will never be able to pay back. And yet the arrogance us Americans so proudly display. One day, and it may be sooner rather than later, we will fall. All the same ingredients that Rome had before they fell, we wear proudly and flaunt it to other nations. You can't tell me that these nations aren't waiting and watching for the right moment to make a move. Financially two other countries have us over a barrel. That should be extremely disconcerting to every American.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/26/2008 4:21:30 AM
|
|
|
RJR_fan
Posts: 678
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: online
|
quote:
Can we compare America to the fall of Rome? What do you think God's role was in the fall of Rome? Are we seeing His hand presently swiping America?
Like the disciples Jesus addressed in the Mount Olivet Discourse, we can easily confuse the end of our world with the end of the world. Whenever an age ends, it is usually a messy affair, characterized by monetary inflation, exploding pornography, fascination with the occult, and collapsing courage. Did I mention a lot of pointless warfare? And increasingly grotesque, violent entertainments. (Sorry, CSI and Bones fans!) And new diseases. In the years leading up to Luther's Reformation, a large percentage of Europe's adult population had syphilis.
These are also moments of incredibly opportunity for the gospel, as human plots run aground of divine laughter (see Psalm 2), and people start looking for new ways to understand their lives. During one window of gospel opportunity, Douglas MacArthur begged America to send 10,000 missionaries to Japan. What they got was engineers -- and today, Japanese society is characterized by technical brilliance and hardened secularism.
We did somewhat better when soviet communism lost its grip on the popular imagination. The largest Protestant church in Europe is a Pentecostal congregation in Kiev, founded by an African missionary.
At the moment, the two biggest enemies of Christ's gospel are Islam and secular humanism (political Unitarianism). Let's face it, folks, since 1789 we have not been living in a federation of Christian commonwealths, but under the aegis of a Unitarian superstructure that took power in a quiet coup[1], asserted itself with naked terrorism[2], secured hegemony by the most violent and vicious war ever fought by Americans, since it was on American soil and between Americans, then was launched against the rest of the world.[3]
Which of these two enemies will fall first? I'm betting on for Islam, and studying Turkish in hopes of being prepared for opportunities to share Christ with an audience that is desperate to hear the ultimate Good News.
But the governing ideology of America, secular humanism, also has a date with the ash heap of history. I think God is already laying the groundwork for a better consensus in our country.
Ends of ages are fascinating. So, too, are those rare individuals who lay the foundations for new worlds after the end of their world. When Rome fell, one Roman Christian (a guy from Africa) articulated a new vision of how men could understand their connections to one another and to God that this vision. Augustine's City of God laid the foundations for a Christian social order that endured for a thousand years.[4]
[1] The delegates to the constitutional convention were authorized to fine-tune the articles of confederation. Instead, they created a new national covenant, consecrated to a new deity -- "We the people."
[2] Recall "John Brown" and "Bibles for Kansas" -- boxes of Springfield rifles purchased by a Unitarian church to be used in and against that bleeding state.
[3] Google Smedley Butler's speech War is a Racket, or the phrase "gangster for capitalism." A restless dollar goes abroad. "The flag follows the dollar, and soldiers follow the flag," said this most highly decorated Marine of all our history.
[4] The God-haters call that era "the dark ages," of course. 
< Message edited by RJR_fan -- 6/26/2008 4:31:22 AM >
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/26/2008 7:07:10 AM
|
|
|
Gazingstock
Posts: 100
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline
|
Rome held out a very long time. The average life span of a nation is 250-years. At that point, nations usually fail, undergo revolution, or hostile takeover. A few passages to consider about the fall of nations:
For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: -1Pe 1:24
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. -Gal 6:7-8
And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass: And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits. -Lev 26:18-20
While we do live in the age of grace, we see that the principle is the same in the New Testament as in the Old Testament. The glory of man withers. We reap the consequences of fleshly living. Hopefully in his mercy he will spare the US a lot longer, but we have no promise of that. We are ruled by pride, greed, and materialism about which we know:
For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. -1Jo 2:16
_____________________________
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual [ones]. -1Cr 2:13
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/26/2008 10:05:53 AM
|
|
|
Bridgitt
Posts: 237
Joined: 6/18/2008
Status: offline
|
Well, the US calls itself a super power. However, they don't realize that it is by God's grace that it is where it is. Eventually the US will be brought to its knees, like everybody else. All we can do is keep our eyes on Jesus, pray for our country and love our neighbors as commanded.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/27/2008 7:26:07 AM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 3628
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
|
quote:
At the moment, the two biggest enemies of Christ's gospel are Islam and secular humanism (political Unitarianism).
I completely disagree.
The biggest threat to christianity is...chrstianity. The perversions of the Truth. Poor teachings. False "revivals". Legalists.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rome fell - 6/27/2008 9:31:07 AM
|
|
|
siapa
Posts: 61
Joined: 3/5/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bridgitt
Well, the US calls itself a super power. However, they don't realize that it is by God's grace that it is where it is. Eventually the US will be brought to its knees, like everybody else. All we can do is keep our eyes on Jesus, pray for our country and love our neighbors as commanded.
Yes, Bridgitt...arrogance will bring destruction towards oneself, even a country. The Bible NEVER condone any arrogant behavior, because it's against Jesus Christ's teaching. God bless.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
Right on. 
