Should these people be considered illegal and refused licenses?
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Should these people be considered illegal and refused l... - 4/19/2008 2:52:40 PM
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Leslie35
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EDIT to show story
http://www.ky3.com/news/contactky3reports/17387419.html
I was watching my local news. They were talking about this 60+ year old guy who was still fit and active yet was on the verge of loosing his license. The government started this new program to prove you are who you say you are before getting a new license. The problem is that this guys mother moved here from Belguim when he was 2 years old. She married an american man but he is unsure if the man who raised him ever adopted him. His mother and the man he called father are both long dead so he cannot ask them. His birth cirtificate is from Belguim. He served in the miltary,fought in 2 forgein wars, came home and spent the rest of his time farming in rural Misouri. Yet he cannot prove he is an American citizen so he will be refused a drivers license. I am sorry but that makes no sence.
< Message edited by 2monkeysmom -- 4/19/2008 9:14:29 PM >
_____________________________
If I speak with the tongues of angels and have not love I am nothing but a clanging symbol. ~Love is patient and kind, Love is not ill mannered or easily angered.
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 4:42:14 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2monkeysmom
I am sorry but that makes no sence.
Well maybe not,j but it just might make him an illegan alien.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 4:56:27 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 369
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quote:
The government started this new program to prove you are who you say you are before getting a new license. .....
Yet he cannot prove he is an American citizen so he will be refused a drivers license.
Illegal Alien Alert! Get Your Very Own Drivers License in Maryland:
Maryland, along with eight states, allows illegal immigrants to get driver’s licenses.
HERE
This also includes Photo IDs from DMV [Department of Motor Vehicles].
I believe these New programs should be enforced only on New applications; those who have had a drivers license (or Photo ID) in the State should be able to renew them.
But I tell you, under the new program it's not easy to 'Prove you are who you say you are', even for American citizens --- and that upsets me. It's like Americans are guilty until proven innocent.
Our grandson (21 at the time) lost his Photo ID; he had to present them (DMV) with his Birth Certificate with the seal, his School records --- mailed to him (and this had to remain unopened until DMV opened it), and another document that I can't remember now; just for a replacement Photo ID.
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 5:08:45 PM
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Leslie35
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I do not think this man and others like him are interested in getting fake ID's for illegals. I guess there are a lot of these immigrints from the 20's and 30's that were brought here as children and have no idea if they are citizens. My MIL had trouble getting a passport because of birth cirtificate problems. She was born here but they did not keep records like they do now.
_____________________________
If I speak with the tongues of angels and have not love I am nothing but a clanging symbol. ~Love is patient and kind, Love is not ill mannered or easily angered.
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 5:38:13 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2monkeysmom
I do not think this man and others like him are interested in getting fake ID's for illegals. I guess there are a lot of these immigrints from the 20's and 30's that were brought here as children and have no idea if they are citizens. My MIL had trouble getting a passport because of birth cirtificate problems. She was born here but they did not keep records like they do now.
Yeah, my mom was born here (PA.), and never had a drivers lic. or a photo ID, and when she went to change banks (in her 80's) she was told she needed 'a photo ID and proof that she was who she was'; what a major head-ache and months and months of footwork and paperwork that was, because like you said, 'they did not keep records like they do now'.
There is, for me, a big difference between legal and illegal immigrants. This man sounds like a legal immigrant, and should be able to get his School Records, Military Records, and IRS & State Income Tax paperwork with dates to prove that he is he.
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 6:01:58 PM
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relady
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In Missouri, people over 65 are exempted from the having to show the birth certificate business. Missouri does not tend to be on the "cutting edge" so if we have an exemption, I suspect most states do. Or they have a process for waivering. There are lots of elderly natural born citizens who were born at home and don't have birth certificates.
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 6:22:30 PM
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Kat_D
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This is his first driver's license and he's 60 years old? Doesn't make sense...why at this late stage in life did he decide he wanted a driver's license?
I agree with RC, he's probably an illegal alien.
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~Kat
I only have Eyes for You, Lord!
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 6:27:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
This is his first driver's license and he's 60 years old? Doesn't make sense...why at this late stage in life did he decide he wanted a driver's license?
I agree with RC, he's probably an illegal alien.
From the OP...
I was watching my local news. They were talking about this 60+ year old guy who was still fit and active yet was on the verge of loosing his license. The government started this new program to prove you are who you say you are before getting a new license
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 7:05:31 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
This is his first driver's license and he's 60 years old? Doesn't make sense...why at this late stage in life did he decide he wanted a driver's license?
I agree with RC, he's probably an illegal alien.
From the OP...
I was watching my local news. They were talking about this 60+ year old guy who was still fit and active yet was on the verge of loosing his license. The government started this new program to prove you are who you say you are before getting a new license
You mean they are asking for his birth certificate in order to renew his license? If he's renewing, he should only have to show his last license.
_____________________________
~Kat
I only have Eyes for You, Lord!
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 7:30:15 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
This is his first driver's license and he's 60 years old? Doesn't make sense...why at this late stage in life did he decide he wanted a driver's license?
I agree with RC, he's probably an illegal alien.
From the OP...
I was watching my local news. They were talking about this 60+ year old guy who was still fit and active yet was on the verge of loosing his license. The government started this new program to prove you are who you say you are before getting a new license
You mean they are asking for his birth certificate in order to renew his license? If he's renewing, he should only have to show his last license.
Heh.... Move to New York.... You'll need your old license and at least 4 other specific items of ID to get your license...
John
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 7:54:49 PM
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vixir
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I'm nowhere near military savvy. But don't you have to be an American citizen in order to serve in the war, and/or even join the military?!? I always thought so, but I can most certainly be wrong.
This is very sad! He fought in the war and lived the majority of his life here, and yet there's a big chance that he might not be considered an American citizen? Don't they keep records of adoptions and such?
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 9:01:03 PM
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jongould
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Here is my opinion for what it is worth:
Most people either need to drive or be able to use mass transportation in order for basic survival; the state has no right to infringe upon this basic right either by requiring or denying licensure for either vehicle or persons.
In fact it is the responsibility of the state to assure that all of its citizens have access to safe transportation as well as the training to safely use it. I am all for driving regulations fines/punishment for those who break regulations and laws; just that those laws must stop short of keeping someone from their means of survival.
By the way that is inclusive of the so called illegal alien as well; fact is that before 1947 there was no such thing as an illegal alien; immigration law is a recent device that has no basis within the constitution of the United States of America.
Some have wrongly claimed that it is the illegal Latina/os that have placed such a burden upon our Medicare/Social Security system in the US. While it is really the US FDA, (which by the way has a budget larger than all of the former Soviet Union Countries combined), which claims to be protecting the American people while it is their real duty to make sure that no drugs are manufactured and sold in the United States unless manufactured by the large US Drug companies.
Allow me to tell how bad this really is:
My wife has complete kidney failure. We met and married in Indonesia. While in Indonesia her monthly supply of dialysis fluid cost $200.00. It was manufactured in Singapore. When we decided to come back to live in the US she switched to equipment and fluid made by Baxter in Dearborn, Illinois; the cost went up to $400.00 per month. I thought that this was reasonable because after all it had to be shipped half way around the world.
Before we left for the US I tried my best to get the needed dialysis fluid ahead of our arrival in the United States. No one would sell it; not even with a prescription. We arrived in the US and found a dialysis clinic who would deliver her monthly supply of fluid; the cost for the same Baxter fluid from Dearborn, Illinois: $18,000.00 per month, plus another $450.00 per month for the twice a month doctor visits to keep her US prescription current as well as a monthly $400.00 per month in lab fees. By the way the suggested cost of the Baxter Fluid in the US Baxter Catalog is $232.37 per box for an 8 day supply which consists of little more than a 1.5% solution of sugar in a sterile saline solution. They continue to charge my insurance and Medi-Care nearly $19,000.00 per month. While you are wondering where your Medi-Care and Social Security has gone to don't forget to ask your Senators who passed the laws, and the FDA who regulates those laws, and the Drug Companies who have taken everything; don't blame it on the poor illegal Latina/os.
The Governor of Minnesota, Tim Pawlenty, won a major victory for residents of Minnesota. Now Minnesota residents may purchase the drugs made by the same large drug manufactures for sale in Canada with out the huge US FDA Mandated US Drug Company mark ups. There has not much been said about what the Governor has done; however, it may turn out to be the most significant thing to happen in the US in this decade.
Unless the baby boomers do something now to stop this madness in the US there will be little left of either Medicare or Social Security come time to retire. There are a lot worse things in this country of ours than illegal aliens.
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 9:11:23 PM
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Leslie35
Posts: 657
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From: SW Missouri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
In Missouri, people over 65 are exempted from the having to show the birth certificate business. Missouri does not tend to be on the "cutting edge" so if we have an exemption, I suspect most states do. Or they have a process for waivering. There are lots of elderly natural born citizens who were born at home and don't have birth certificates.
Here is the story
http://www.ky3.com/news/contactky3reports/17387419.html
I live in Missouri too. The story was done by a springfield news channel. They brought up the exemption but I think he was 62 or 63. No this was not his first license it was a renewal. I think it is nationwide that people have to prove they are who they say they are by birth cirtificate or passport. If you name has changed you have to bring in that paperwork. That is what the problem is for this man. His birth cirtificate is from Belguim and he does not know if the man his mother married ever adopted him. She married him when he was too young to remember.
_____________________________
If I speak with the tongues of angels and have not love I am nothing but a clanging symbol. ~Love is patient and kind, Love is not ill mannered or easily angered.
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 9:24:38 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 369
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quote:
Most people either need to drive or be able to use mass transportation in order for basic survival; the state has no right to infringe upon this basic right either by requiring or denying licensure for either vehicle or persons.
In fact it is the responsibility of the state to assure that all of its citizens have access to safe transportation as well as the training to safely use it. I am all for driving regulations fines/punishment for those who break regulations and laws; just that those laws must stop short of keeping someone from their means of survival.
By the way that is inclusive of the so called illegal alien as well; fact is that before 1947 there was no such thing as an illegal alien; immigration law is a recent device that has no basis within the constitution of the United States of America.
I disagree with you on this.
If a person, illegal or legal immigrants, or American born can not read or speak the English language, do not know the driving laws, and does not agree to follow those laws than they have no business getting and/or keeping a drivers lic. in America.
I do however, agree with you on the Drug and Health Care matter --- It is completely out of control. And Hillary and Obama are only going to make matters worst; if either one becomes the next President; That's scary!!
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 9:52:16 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 369
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quote:
Here is the story
http://www.ky3.com/news/contactky3reports/17387419.html
I live in Missouri too. The story was done by a springfield news channel. They brought up the exemption but I think he was 62 or 63. No this was not his first license it was a renewal. I think it is nationwide that people have to prove they are who they say they are by birth cirtificate or passport. If you name has changed you have to bring in that paperwork. That is what the problem is for this man. His birth cirtificate is from Belguim and he does not know if the man his mother married ever adopted him. She married him when he was too young to remember.
If I may make a suggestion: Go to 'Google' and Search Your Vehicle Administration in your State, for what is needed.
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/19/2008 11:47:57 PM
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relady
Posts: 910
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
You mean they are asking for his birth certificate in order to renew his license? If he's renewing, he should only have to show his last license. I just renewed (MO) and had to turn in my old license, show my original birth certificate and a current utility bill to prove my residence. I took an eye test and the whole thing took about 15 minutes. But yeah, it's getting stupid.
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/20/2008 12:54:14 AM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pat-rebel_lady
quote:
Here is the story
http://www.ky3.com/news/contactky3reports/17387419.html
I live in Missouri too. The story was done by a springfield news channel. They brought up the exemption but I think he was 62 or 63. No this was not his first license it was a renewal. I think it is nationwide that people have to prove they are who they say they are by birth certificate or passport. If you name has changed you have to bring in that paperwork. That is what the problem is for this man. His birth cirtificate is from Belguim and he does not know if the man his mother married ever adopted him. She married him when he was too young to remember.
If I may make a suggestion: Go to 'Google' and Search Your Vehicle Administration in your State, for what is needed.
Nope, it's not in effect in my State according to our DMV site.
I can hardly believe this man, at the age of 64, has never had to have a birth certificate before. I've needed mine for several occasions, i.e., enrolling in school, getting married, getting a passport, etc.
He'll likely be in big trouble when he tries to apply for his Social Security Benefits and/or Medicare. I would think he'd need it for that too.
_____________________________
~Kat
I only have Eyes for You, Lord!
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/20/2008 1:13:59 AM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 369
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quote:
Here is the story
http://www.ky3.com/news/contactky3reports/17387419.html
I live in Missouri too. The story was done by a springfield news channel. They brought up the exemption but I think he was 62 or 63. No this was not his first license it was a renewal. I think it is nationwide that people have to prove they are who they say they are by birth cirtificate or passport. If you name has changed you have to bring in that paperwork. That is what the problem is for this man. His birth cirtificate is from Belguim and he does not know if the man his mother married ever adopted him. She married him when he was too young to remember.
The Story says:
“I've been driving since I was 16 with no problems,” he said recently.
After 48 years behind the wheel he found he can't renew his license, which expires next month.
The law that went into effect in July 2005 says anyone applying for a license has to show proof of citizenship or naturalization. A passport or birth certificate works best. A Social Security card isn’t enough.
The law is meant to promote homeland security but also prevents thousands of Missourians from easily renewing their licenses."
I don't understand this, the new law is for anyone applying for a drivers license Not for those renewing before it expires. Did his expire?
However: it also says:
"Exceptions: Missourians age 65 or older who are renewing a driver license or nondriver license are NOT required to show proof of lawful presence. Additionally, any Missourian under age 65 without proof of lawful presence may obtain a one-year license IF a 15-year Missouri driving history exists. The special one-year license cannot be renewed but does provide a full year to obtain the required documents for proof of lawful presence. Click here for more information about the ID Requirement.
Freeman learned about the one-year license extension after this report aired on KY3 News at 10 p.m. on April 7. He planned to renew his license for a year so, at the end of the year, he would be over 65 years of age, making him exempt from the law. Then he realized he only has a 12-year Missouri driving history, so he's back to square one. Now he's only able to renew his license for 30 days, which Freeman doesn't think will help him."
So if he's been driving for 48 years; 12 of them in Missouri; than he should be on record in other states that he has lived in and had a lic. from --- that should get him some proof that may help.
None-the-less, it still does not answer the OP question of 'Should these people be considered illegal and refused licenses?'
Only if they can't come up with the proof.
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/20/2008 9:24:18 AM
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stellaluna
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I don't think he should necessarily be considered illegal. In the absence of the documents they typically use, I think his military record should be able to be used. Also, perhaps there are other relatives living that might be able to shed light on his status? I might take a notorized affadavit from a family member, depending on who it was.
My great-grandmother didn't have a birth certificate. She was born at home, not even in a town. Our family record shows her birthplace as Jones County and that's the closest description she could ever give. If she had had to show a birth certificate for a DL, she would have never been able to get one. The county she was born in had just incorporated a couple of years before her birth and she knew that some of her siblings born there didn't have birth certificates, while later sibs did. She was still allowed to apply for a social security card, medicare, etc. because our state recognizes that some old people just never had an official record of their birth.
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CW Underground
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/20/2008 1:02:18 PM
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Leslie35
Posts: 657
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From: SW Missouri
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Yeah there are alot of people who do not have very accurate records of birth. That is kinda crazy and probally will not do much good. Most people who are trying to stay under the radar already know how to illegally obtain a drivers licence. Mostly I think this just makes life hard on honest people.
_____________________________
If I speak with the tongues of angels and have not love I am nothing but a clanging symbol. ~Love is patient and kind, Love is not ill mannered or easily angered.
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/20/2008 3:45:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2monkeysmom
Yeah there are alot of people who do not have very accurate records of birth. That is kinda crazy and probally will not do much good. Most people who are trying to stay under the radar already know how to illegally obtain a drivers licence. Mostly I think this just makes life hard on honest people.
Problem is there has to be a line drawn somewhere... While there will always be problems like the poor guy in the OP we being a republic based on the rule of law must have established rules and regulations or you end up with situations like here in California where many of the drives have no insurance because they are not legal citizens and or guests and I pay for that with higher insurance premiums and even higher taxes…
I believe in the case on this thread the military commitment alone should grant the person citizenship. I know for a fact the Navy had a program that would nationalize Pilipino’s for their service...
John
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/20/2008 3:47:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I don't think he should necessarily be considered illegal. In the absence of the documents they typically use, I think his military record should be able to be used. Also, perhaps there are other relatives living that might be able to shed light on his status? I might take a notorized affadavit from a family member, depending on who it was.
My great-grandmother didn't have a birth certificate. She was born at home, not even in a town. Our family record shows her birthplace as Jones County and that's the closest description she could ever give. If she had had to show a birth certificate for a DL, she would have never been able to get one. The county she was born in had just incorporated a couple of years before her birth and she knew that some of her siblings born there didn't have birth certificates, while later sibs did. She was still allowed to apply for a social security card, medicare, etc. because our state recognizes that some old people just never had an official record of their birth.
His birth cirtificate is from Belguim...
John
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/20/2008 4:42:41 PM
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stellaluna
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1) That his birth certificate is from Belgium isn't at issue. That doesn't mean that he is illegal.
2) Many people of older generations might have the same problem because of lack of documentation.
And no, we don't have to draw a line. By the time the baby boomers came along, this lack of documentation was likely solved 99% of the time due to better record keeping. This guy just fell through a crack.
_____________________________
CW Underground
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/20/2008 5:22:34 PM
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relady
Posts: 910
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
I don't understand this, the new law is for anyone applying for a drivers license Not for those renewing before it expires. No, it's for renewing ones as well. Through renewal you are "applying" for a license. I received my renewal notice a month or two before mine expired listing what I needed to bring to get my license. I had to bring the old license, proof of residence (I'm not over 65) and proof of citizenship through my birth certificate.
It could be an issue for older people, though, who have never had to have this stuff. A man who is in his 60s might not have had to present a birth certificate for school entry like they do now. I am with Stellaluna on this one, I would think something from his military service would suffice. Lacking that, there should be some sort of waiver for people of a certain age who don't have what's needed.
Someone who has been here that many years should be "grandfathered" as a citizen IMO.
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RE: Should these people be considered illegal and refus... - 4/20/2008 8:02:57 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1846
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
1) That his birth certificate is from Belgium isn't at issue. That doesn't mean that he is illegal.
Not for sure, but unless he was naturalized he probably is...
quote:
2) Many people of older generations might have the same problem because of lack of documentation.
And no, we don't have to draw a line. By the time the baby boomers came along, this lack of documentation was likely solved 99% of the time due to better record keeping. This guy just fell through a crack.
No line... Hmmmm... So anyone who wants to can get a license by simply showing up and breathing? Sorry but there has to be and there are lines... It's about keeping order and it's the main reason God ordained the civil government... Though it doesn't mean that circumstances can be such that other things are taken in to account...
John
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