|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Tongues without interpretations - 6/18/2008 7:10:57 AM
|
|
|
RJR_fan
Posts: 662
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: online
|
A custom has developed in our full-gospel church that has me distressed to the point where I avoid our prayer meetings. Under the guise of exhorting the assembled believers to greater fervor and intensity in their prayers, a leader, or authorized person holding the microphone, will pray in tongues over the microphone. It is as though that person is saying, "Look at me! I have something so important to say that I need to use the public address system to say it!" And then out comes a string of English phonemes re-arranged so as to make no sense.
No problems so far. Almost all the time, those who pray in tongues use the phonemes of their native language to unconsciously invent a prayer language which somehow has a place in God's provision for our good and His glory. I'm Pentecostal and do it myself!
Then -- there is no interpretation. The clear Biblical mandate concerning public utterances has been ignored. (see I Cor. 14) The speaker has spoken into the air, pointlessly, to no effect, other than to look like a raving madman to any unbeliever who might be present. Well, it does "stir up" the crowd a bit -- but is such "stirring up" a true Holy Spirit thing, or "strange fire before the Lord?"
Well, let's get to my question: What is a lowly pew-sitter to do? What advice to you, dear brothers and sisters, have to offer me? What tends to promote the glory of God and the good of His people in this situation?
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/18/2008 7:21:48 AM
|
|
|
manda59
Posts: 5368
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
|
Have you shared your concerns, about it not being Scriptural, with your pastor?
_____________________________
"I think my computer needs a "What Manda just said" button." 1mlasp July 2008
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/18/2008 7:39:55 AM
|
|
|
Consecrated2God
Posts: 5072
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Jesus Land
Status: offline
|
I didn't realize you were Pentecostal, RJR_fan! I really never would have guessed that. 
Anyway, I think you need to go to your pastor. Anytime in any of the churches that I've gone to if that scenario would have happened, the pastor would step forward after a minute or so of waiting on an interpretation and say, "We have received a message in tongues, would someone please deliver an interpretation?" and someone would.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/18/2008 7:55:14 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 4850
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
I think the problem is a lack of understanding of the difference between one gining a prophecy in tonguew (which definately must have an interpretation) and an individual praying and/or singing in tongues.
I do not understnad the reason for giving a microphone to someone to "Privately" pray unto God as mentioned in;
(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Paul address this again in;
(1Co 14:15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co 14:16) Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
So it seems to me that someone leading a corporate pray should do as Paul instructs and pray with the understanding or the language of the congregation so all may understand.
I think what is happening would be out of order in my humble opinion.
Using the microphone would certainly take the prayer from private prayer to public prayer and all should understand.
Now all prophetic tongues must have an interpretation, but when the event happens in my Church if someone has an interpretation they are the ones given a microphone so all can hear and understand. The person giving the tongue in not giving a microphone.
I consider praying in tongues as man speaking to God (vs 2) and prophecy in tongues as God speaking to man.
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 6/18/2008 8:01:35 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/18/2008 4:03:43 PM
|
|
|
phosadaud
Posts: 8782
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
|
I would agree to speak with your Pastor to share your concerns (which are biblically correct by the way). It concerns me when you say this has become a custom though. That makes me think it is not being addressed from a Scriptural standpoint, but I could be mistaken which is why you should take this to your pastor.
In my church, our pastor will say something to the effect of what it was and we will wait for the interpretation. I can't recall not ever receiving an interpretation though, but if none were to come, the pastor would speak to the person who gave the word in tongues to help them better understand discernment of when to keep in private and when to share the word publicly. I don't think it's a disaster if it happens once (we all can make mistakes in exercising any gift), but it does need to be addressed so that order is maintained as the Bible commends us.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/18/2008 5:21:07 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5232
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
A custom has developed in our full-gospel church that has me distressed to the point where I avoid our prayer meetings. Under the guise of exhorting the assembled believers to greater fervor and intensity in their prayers, a leader, or authorized person holding the microphone, will pray in tongues over the microphone. It is as though that person is saying, "Look at me! I have something so important to say that I need to use the public address system to say it!" And then out comes a string of English phonemes re-arranged so as to make no sense.
That is a major problem and something my church would take issue with because of what you described.. it opens the doors to a plethora of problems and grief.
quote:
No problems so far. Almost all the time, those who pray in tongues use the phonemes of their native language to unconsciously invent a prayer language which somehow has a place in God's provision for our good and His glory. I'm Pentecostal and do it myself!
The above comment really caught my attention. Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, but are you saying that when you "speak in tongues" that you're just blabbing strings of words and sounds?
quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
Then -- there is no interpretation. The clear Biblical mandate concerning public utterances has been ignored. (see I Cor. 14) The speaker has spoken into the air, pointlessly, to no effect, other than to look like a raving madman to any unbeliever who might be present. Well, it does "stir up" the crowd a bit -- but is such "stirring up" a true Holy Spirit thing, or "strange fire before the Lord?"
Because it lacks the clear rule of Scripture, it is at best, a counterfeit. At worse, demonic in origin.
quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
Well, let's get to my question: What is a lowly pew-sitter to do? What advice to you, dear brothers and sisters, have to offer me? What tends to promote the glory of God and the good of His people in this situation?
I would directly, calmly, lovingly and respectfully bring your legit concern up with those in leadership at the church.
The last time I did that in a similar situation I was asked to leave the church, to stop being a "heresy hunter", and that I was "quenching the Spirit".
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/18/2008 5:22:42 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5232
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Anyway, I think you need to go to your pastor. Anytime in any of the churches that I've gone to if that scenario would have happened, the pastor would step forward after a minute or so of waiting on an interpretation and say, "We have received a message in tongues, would someone please deliver an interpretation?" and someone would.
I have known of situations where it was later admitted (or discovered) that the interpretation was made up and based out of emotion. Out of what the person interpreting thought God wanted to say to the congregation.. and or out of wanting to save the tongues speaker reputation.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/18/2008 6:30:14 PM
|
|
|
RJR_fan
Posts: 662
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: online
|
quote:
The above comment really caught my attention. Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, but are you saying that when you "speak in tongues" that you're just blabbing strings of words and sounds?
This does seem to be a nearly universal experience among tongues-talkers. Different phonemes in different languages are -- different. Listen intently to one who is "praying in tongues," and you will normally hear re-arranged English phonemes. Not those of another earthly (or "heavenly") language. In my 30+ pentecostal years, I've only known of one incident where a guy worshiping in tongues was heard, by a native Spanish speaker, to be do so in Spanish -- a language that the worshiper had never studied. It can be wondered if the miracle was in the speaking, or the hearing, however.
But that's another topic, so let's not go there.
Thanks for your kind words of encouragement, dear brothers and sisters.
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/18/2008 8:34:36 PM
|
|
|
phosadaud
Posts: 8782
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
The above comment really caught my attention. Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, but are you saying that when you "speak in tongues" that you're just blabbing strings of words and sounds?
This does seem to be a nearly universal experience among tongues-talkers. Different phonemes in different languages are -- different. Listen intently to one who is "praying in tongues," and you will normally hear re-arranged English phonemes. Not those of another earthly (or "heavenly") language. In my 30+ pentecostal years, I've only known of one incident where a guy worshiping in tongues was heard, by a native Spanish speaker, to be do so in Spanish -- a language that the worshiper had never studied. It can be wondered if the miracle was in the speaking, or the hearing, however.
But that's another topic, so let's not go there.
Thanks for your kind words of encouragement, dear brothers and sisters.
I'm a Pentecostal myself and I know this isn't the OP, but I think it needs to be addressed and hopefully I am misunderstanding you: If you are making up the words and just babbling - that is not tongues. That would be from yourself - not from the Spirit. Tongues is from the Spirit. The only "control" you have is you have the control to not utter that which comes to your lips.
I believe this needs to be addressed because if you are attending a church that thinks tongues is something you do and something you make up, there's a problem. A big problem.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/18/2008 8:37:25 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5232
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
|
Kristin,
Thank you - if we're indeed understanding him correctly - it is not tongues he is speaking and advocating, but human nonsense and emotional experiences.
And I was a pastor in a Pentecostal church for ten years.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/18/2008 8:44:56 PM
|
|
|
phosadaud
Posts: 8782
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
|
I'm glad you caught it. I missed it the first time I read the OP and responded.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/18/2008 9:41:33 PM
|
|
|
hellohellohi
Posts: 538
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
Status: offline
|
I thought speaking in tongues was speaking miraculously in foreign languages.
(EDIT)oops: clicked on this thread on accident and just read it, didn't realize it was "ministry leaders" and of course there is a one stop about this topic, huh
< Message edited by hellohellohi -- 6/18/2008 9:55:13 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/19/2008 7:51:00 PM
|
|
|
RJR_fan
Posts: 662
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: online
|
quote:
I thought speaking in tongues was speaking miraculously in foreign languages.
Not always. Almost all the time, it is a natural[1] facility that God mysteriously uses. Other religions pray, fast, and speak in tongues. This is simply one more mode of religious experience that Christians can use to intensify their devotional life.
However, as Matt. 6 points out, not all modes of righteous activity are meant to be flaunted flagrantly and publicly. Praying, fasting, and almsgiving are most pleasing in God's sight when done demurely, discretely, and for His eyes. Even legitimate activities can be unseemly when done loudly, boisterously, and publicly. If I treated my wife in public the way I do in the privacy of our holy wedded bed, folks would call the cops!
I can embrace the practice of praying quietly, in tongues, to edify one's own spirit. Or, the practice of sometimes offering a message in an unknown tongue, when someone who (naturally or supernaturally) can interpret it, for the glory of God. The hybrid practice, however, of whipping up a frenzy of piety by praying loudly over a microphone in tongues (sans interpretation) is like fingernails on a chalkboard!
[1] OK -- listen for yourself. When an American prays in tongues, he does so using sounds from the English language. Listen for yourself, and you will confirm this observation 90+% of the time.
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/19/2008 7:53:55 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5232
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
|
RJR,
Speaking in tongues, if genuinely a movement of the Holy Spirit, will never just be an individuals own mumblings and babblings..
Reminds me of these two heretics: HERE
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/19/2008 9:15:49 PM
|
|
|
themoodyexperience
Posts: 136
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
RJR,
Speaking in tongues, if genuinely a movement of the Holy Spirit, will never just be an individuals own mumblings and babblings..
Reminds me of these two heretics: HERE
This might not be the place for it, and please direct me to the right thread, but didn't the audience at Pentecost hear their own language? That's alway kinda bugged me about tongues.
_____________________________
If you question what I'm teaching you
You rebel against the Father too.
- Steve Taylor from "I Manipulate"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/19/2008 9:20:07 PM
|
|
|
phosadaud
Posts: 8782
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
|
Here is the one-stop shop for all things tongues...
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/20/2008 2:55:31 AM
|
|
|
RJR_fan
Posts: 662
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: online
|
quote:
Here is the one-stop shop for all things tongues...
and the big question in the OP remains -- how does one respectfully bring points of disagreement to the attention of those in church leadership? What has been the experience of those in this forum in that area?
Thanks!
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/20/2008 7:34:37 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3756
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
What RC James said.
What you describe is out of order.
However, it seems to be deeply ingrained in pentecostal culture that if anything goes silent someone has to fill it up with praying in tongues. Loudly. In a mic if one is available. At the top of your lungs if it is not.
Funny how some can read 1 Cor 12 in support of using these gifts but gloss over 1 Cor 14 that tells us HOW to use them.
Oh, BTW, when I recieved my "prayer language" back in 1972, it had gutteral Hebrew phonems. I had never heard Hebrew. (came in handy when I started learning Hebrew 25 years later)
As to the REAL question here: how to approach your congregational leadership on this issue: How well do you know your pastor or the board members? If you are on good terms with them, make an appeal based on scripture (in writing) to end the practice.
1Ti 5:1a Don’t rebuke an elder, but exhort him as a father
Follow it up with lots of prayer for them to see it as a needful issue.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/20/2008 7:46:48 AM
|
|
|
seagullplayer
Posts: 127
Joined: 9/18/2007
Status: offline
|
Perhaps the OP could sit down and write a letter to the Pastor explaining their concern for the situation and ask the Pastor to sit down with them about it.
I like a letter in this case because:
It has been going on for sometime so it is not an emergency.
A letter forces you to gather your thoughts in a concise manner.
You are not catching the Pastor off guard, he will know what you’re meeting about and have his thoughts on the subject arranged as well.
It will give you both time to pray about it.
I think this would give the OP a better chance of resolving this issue without too much conflict, if that is even possible…
_____________________________
The world has only one problem, sin.
There is only one solution, Jesus.
THE WAY.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/20/2008 9:51:48 AM
|
|
|
BibleL7
Posts: 480
Joined: 2/1/2008
Status: offline
|
You could always talk to the pastor and ask what he thinks of the situation. It may be something he is addressing or he may be considering how to best address it of course I did not think this was anything pentecostals ever concerned themselves about. Guess I might have to give them benifit of doubt.
< Message edited by BibleL7 -- 6/20/2008 10:03:07 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/20/2008 3:11:00 PM
|
|
|
phosadaud
Posts: 8782
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
|
I just wanted to add that as with any group, there are all different extremes. Yes, there are some Pentecostals who get wrapped up in emotions and tongues and who do not follow the Biblical mandate for order. That doesn't mean all or even most Pentecostals are like that. I think some of you would be shocked if you went to many of the Pentecostal churches out there. Most are not the swinging from the chandaliers yelling in tongues all service long that some think they are. And here's a shock - many Pentecostals do not even speak in tongues - although most are open to the gift as we believe that God our Father ONLY gives good gifts and if tongues is a gift from God (and Scripture lists it as such), we shouldn't be afraid of it.
And by the way: I am a member of an AG church (AG is Pentecostal) and what is being described in the OP would be stopped if it happened in my church because it would be out of order.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as Gods. Cats have never forgotten this.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Tongues without interpretations - 6/20/2008 7:30:26 PM
|
|
|
PrincessDonna
Posts: 10128
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Here is the one-stop shop for all things tongues...
Thank you for the link.
Please continue this conversation there. No need to read the whole thread first.
Thanks,
PrincessDonna
Forums Volunteer
Please do not respond to moderator action in forums or by PM. If you have any questions or concerns, please email community@salemwebnetwork.com.
_____________________________
God most definitely sees.
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen,
but on what is unseen. 2 Cor. 4:18
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
