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Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/10/2008 12:42:59 PM
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essentialsaltes
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BBC News reports:
"A fossil animal locked in Lebanese limestone has been shown to be an extremely precious discovery - a snake with two legs.
Scientists have only a handful of specimens that illustrate the evolutionary narrative that goes from ancient lizard to limbless modern serpent."
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/10/2008 1:03:03 PM
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DanJames
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Snakes do have grasping bones and muscles in the region right before their tail, but I don't know that they looked like this. These appear to be arm/leg bones. Very intriguing. It'll be interesting to find out if it's legit.
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/10/2008 1:11:14 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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quote:
Scientists have only a handful of specimens that illustrate the evolutionary narrative that goes from ancient lizard to limbless modern serpent.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7339508.stm
Sounds like devolution to me. It's devolving (which is what a creationist or ID advocate would expect).
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/10/2008 1:17:03 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
quote:
Scientists have only a handful of specimens that illustrate the evolutionary narrative that goes from ancient lizard to limbless modern serpent.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7339508.stm
Sounds like devolution to me. It's devolving (which is what a creationist or ID advocate would expect).
Let's be careful the kinds of words that we use. A creationist wouldn't "expect" to see devolution per se, but it doesn't disagree with the theory of Creation. But you are correct, it remains possible that the grasping appendages in some (not all) snakes may be highly reduced from these leg-like appendages.
Edit: Only pythons have a pelvic girdle.
< Message edited by DanJames -- 4/10/2008 2:28:15 PM >
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/10/2008 2:55:02 PM
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DanJames
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Here's another thought, the black mamba is unique in that it can move quickly with 2/3 of its body off of the ground. What you see is an 8 foot tall stringy thing racing after you right before your death-sentence bite. Perhaps the whole snake kind was originally created to move in this fashion, stabilizing itself with these legs. The curse on the serpent may have been to paralyze these legs, and their lack of use may have caused them to be vestigially used as an aid in reproduction as in the python, and secondarily lost completely. If further study does reveal that these are real legs on a real snake, it might help to clear the air as to the nature of the curse on the serpent.
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/10/2008 3:13:46 PM
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Jhud
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This of course isn't the first fossil of it's kind, but what interests me from an ID perspective is whether or not this is product of gene regulation or not. If it is, as i suspect it is, then it should be possible to produce legs again in a snake, much as scientists were able to modify the gene regulatory process which control mouse limbs to produce 'bat-like' appendages.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/10/2008 3:18:00 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
This of course isn't the first fossil of it's kind, but what interests me from an ID perspective is whether or not this is product of gene regulation or not. If it is, as i suspect it is, then it should be possible to produce legs again in a snake, much as scientists were able to modify the gene regulatory process which control mouse limbs to produce 'bat-like' appendages.
Apparently my knowledge of genetics is sadly lacking. If a snake is not born with leg genes and a mouse is not born with bat genes, then how can they regulate genes to make these appendages?
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/10/2008 3:25:12 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Apparently my knowledge of genetics is sadly lacking. If a snake is not born with leg genes and a mouse is not born with bat genes, then how can they regulate genes to make these appendages?
I'm sure Jhud can tell you more, but I found an interesting article about how Hox genes relate to snake development.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/10/2008 3:26:12 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Apparently my knowledge of genetics is sadly lacking. If a snake is not born with leg genes and a mouse is not born with bat genes, then how can they regulate genes to make these appendages?
Because a mouse is born with bat genes, and in all likelyhood a snake is born with leg genes; they are simply regulated differently.
In fact, many multicellular animals are born with a host of genes that are simply waiting to be turned on or properly regulated.
* Just a clarification - the genes that are there would be more properly described as 'vertebrate body plan genes', rather than bat or snake genes.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/10/2008 3:53:14 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I'm sure Jhud can tell you more, but I found an interesting article about how Hox genes relate to snake development.
Thanks for that essentialsaltes, that pretty much answers the question.
It reminds me a bit of an article I read awhile back on the reduction of the hindlimbs in manatees.
The gene which seems to deal with pelvic limb expression is PitX1, a gene regulator, and it affects the expression of genes in a wide variety of vertebrates.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/11/2008 1:03:52 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I'm sure Jhud can tell you more, but I found an interesting article about how Hox genes relate to snake development.
Thanks for that essentialsaltes, that pretty much answers the question.
It reminds me a bit of an article I read awhile back on the reduction of the hindlimbs in manatees.
The gene which seems to deal with pelvic limb expression is PitX1, a gene regulator, and it affects the expression of genes in a wide variety of vertebrates.
So a manatee could have regular feet if its gene regulator was changed?
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/11/2008 1:06:57 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
So a manatee could have regular feet if its gene regulator was changed?
Well, in the case of PitX1, it could develop rear limbs.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/11/2008 1:42:08 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6792
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One note about this find I just noticed; in the picture, and the video embedded in the article, which is more clear, the rear legs are completely disconnected from the rest of the snake; they represent a separate unit located up by the snakes head in the fossil.
I don't know how closely the actual bones match, but that would be an important consideration.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: Two-legged serpent fossil - 4/12/2008 4:16:12 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
One note about this find I just noticed; in the picture, and the video embedded in the article, which is more clear, the rear legs are completely disconnected from the rest of the snake; they represent a separate unit located up by the snakes head in the fossil.
I don't know how closely the actual bones match, but that would be an important consideration.
Well they didn't keep it a secret. They simply stated as a fact that the tale migrated to the head through the process of preservation. I have no idea how that can happen, but they didn't seem to think that it was anything worth dwelling on. It's clearly short like a snake tail and right behind where the "legs" are which would be presumably right by the anus, which is exactly where a tail would begin.
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