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[Poll]
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Who are the Church Leaders today?
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| Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, Jack Hayford |
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| Bob Jones, Benny Hinn, Mike Bickel |
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| Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Rick Warren |
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| Thomas Trask (AG), Frank Page (SBC), J. Mark Lewis (Presb.) |
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| Other/None of the Above |
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| No one/It doesn't matter. |
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Total Votes : 22
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(last vote on : 7/26/2008 10:52:02 PM)
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Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/13/2008 3:56:39 PM
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csl7037
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Who are the leaders of Christianity at the moment? If someone needs to stand up against problems or abuses in the church, for example (as I kinda think they do), who should that be? Is there anyone that stands out right now? Who has the authority or credibility? Does it even matter? I'm just curious who people look to and is there any consensus on this within the Church right now?
Maybe this boils down to personal preference or denomination or theological bent. But I can't help but wonder who is the better representation of the Church today (and I guess I mean the Church in America)? Do you think the type of people or the type of Christians who are involved on these forums would skew the answers to this question here?
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/13/2008 4:32:45 PM
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Stephanos
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Unfortunately with the polarization that goes on in today's church, there are no clear cut "leaders". Each denomination has its own picks, and even in the same denomination there are several different ideas on who is the "leader".
So it has to be said, that while individual churches/denominations may have their leaders, Christianity as a whole does not.
And I have to say it, but like the RCC or not, the idea of having one solid leader in charge of the church DOES have its advantages.
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/13/2008 4:58:28 PM
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lw9
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quote:
Stephanos: And I have to say it, but like the RCC or not, the idea of having one solid leader in charge of the church DOES have its advantages.
I can see no advantage in holding one man up as the singular head of a church and then leading them astray. No one is infallible, and therefore no one person should be the Church leader. It's an unBiblical model that has caused a great amount of damage, often springboarding right into cult status.
1 Cor 1:11 My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos; another, “I follow Cephas; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one can say that you were baptized into my name.
Christ is the head of the church and it's He Who leads us into truth. Pastor, elder, deacon, or member - we are all still servants in His name.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 7/13/2008 5:14:04 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/13/2008 5:06:57 PM
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csl7037
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
Stephanos: And I have to say it, but like the RCC or not, the idea of having one solid leader in charge of the church DOES have its advantages.
I can see no advantage in holding one man up as the singular head of a church and then leading them astray. No one is infallible, and therefore no one person should be the Church leader. It's an unBiblical model that has caused a great amount of damage, often springboarding right into cult status.
And when Stephanos said that, it did bring me full circle. I posted wondering if there was anyone today that could stand up and say "this is wrong" when off-the-wall doctrines come. But, I realize, that's what the Holy Spirit is for and with the freedom, living by grace, comes the responsibility to discern and be responsible for ourselves for what we fall for and don't.
Speaks to the debate of the office of the Prophet - that's kinda what the OT prophets did. IMO, the gift of prophecy still exists but the office of Prophet (in the OT sense) does not exist any more because that's partly the role of the Holy Spirit.
So, I realize that it is unBiblical and counterproductive to the New Covenant to put a man in that role...even if sometimes we wish there was someone who could reign things in a bit. Interesting. Thanks for helping me think that through!
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/13/2008 5:15:00 PM
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faithfulservant_
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I can definitely see the advantage of having one person or group in charge of the church. It is called accountability. The reason I say this is from my own personal experience. I was a regular attendee at 2 different independent churches and I had a bad experience with both of them. Therefore, I believe that accountability from top to bottom is a very good thing.
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/13/2008 5:21:53 PM
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lw9
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quote:
csl7037: But, I realize, that's what the Holy Spirit is for and with the freedom, living by grace, comes the responsibility to discern and be responsible for ourselves for what we fall for and don't.
Absolutely! Each and every Christian has the authority to proclaim the truth, expose the lies, and stand against abuses in the church right now.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/13/2008 6:45:59 PM
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gaylel1
Posts: 1491
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Other than Graham, (Lets put Franklin in the mix) Hayford and Stanley, all the others will not stand up to stuff. Let's put Todd Bentley for example. Not one of the penecostal leaders took a stand on this issue. The only one who really took a stand was J.Lee Grady of Charisma magazine, which is the top magazine of the pencostal movement. At least Grady sounded the alarm and let the body know what is going on because when you have a movement like this, there will be abuses in the church and that what Grady is afraid of.
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Remembering Topher...
Visit me at http:www.gayleplace.blogspot.com or http://www.myspace.com/gaylel121
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/13/2008 8:30:00 PM
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csl7037
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
Other than Graham, (Lets put Franklin in the mix) Hayford and Stanley, all the others will not stand up to stuff. Let's put Todd Bentley for example. Not one of the penecostal leaders took a stand on this issue. The only one who really took a stand was J.Lee Grady of Charisma magazine, which is the top magazine of the pencostal movement. At least Grady sounded the alarm and let the body know what is going on because when you have a movement like this, there will be abuses in the church and that what Grady is afraid of.
Andrew Strong has been the most emphatic against what Todd Bentley is doing, though. But he's not in the US. This is just one example where I have to wonder about the total lack of response which is what made me post the question.
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/13/2008 8:56:44 PM
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colliefan
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From: Raleigh, NC
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The church "leaders" are those who proclaim God's word, week-in and week-out. Their names may not be "in lights" but they are advancing His kingdom.
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/13/2008 9:13:56 PM
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csl7037
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
The church "leaders" are those who proclaim God's word, week-in and week-out. Their names may not be "in lights" but they are advancing His kingdom.
We need to pray for all those guy to stay strong and focused. You're so right.
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/13/2008 9:39:58 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
We need to pray for all those guy to stay strong and focused. You're so right
We do. The pastor of perhaps the largest SB church has weekly prayer gatherings were pastors of all demoninational stripes gather to pray for each other and their respective flocks.
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/14/2008 7:45:34 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 754
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From: Silver Spring, MD
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Put one vote in for Pope Benedict XVI. :)
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/15/2008 2:58:13 PM
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freakofnature
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I was thinking of starting a post very similar to this one. I see alot of division in modern Christianity. Any time that, it seems, a leader stands up, he/she gets removed. Maybe that is God, maybe human falibilities. I think also because of the various denominations in modern Christianity it isn't good to have one overall sortof spokesman for the church because too many times other denominations aren't going to always agree with what this so-called leader is saying. Like for me, I don't mind "Focus on the Family" and Dr. Dobson, but I have read soooo many post of other Christians just brow beatin' this guy. I then have to think and wonder, "If I follow this guy and like what he is saying, and other Christians are beatin' him down... then where am I going wrong?" So I have stopped tuning in to any Christian radio shows and I never ever have been a big fan of Christian television. I grew up in the time of Swaggart and Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. That was a trying time as a young teen to watch. I really enjoyed watching Swaggart and dug into his messages and enthusiasm. Ahh... alas, it is just dangerous territory to put up powerfull leaders...
I am accountable to my pastor whom I know is a good man, righteous man and a man of God.
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/16/2008 2:56:53 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3152
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
So I have stopped tuning in to any Christian radio shows and I never ever have been a big fan of Christian television.
This is being very, very responsible and accountable.
We won't have that needed leader until Yeshua/Jesus returns.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/20/2008 9:48:55 PM
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gaylel1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
So I have stopped tuning in to any Christian radio shows and I never ever have been a big fan of Christian television.
This is being very, very responsible and accountable.
We won't have that needed leader until Yeshua/Jesus returns.
There are good people on christian radio who do not fleece the flock.
_____________________________
Remembering Topher...
Visit me at http:www.gayleplace.blogspot.com or http://www.myspace.com/gaylel121
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/20/2008 9:58:25 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
So I have stopped tuning in to any Christian radio shows and I never ever have been a big fan of Christian television.
This is being very, very responsible and accountable.
We won't have that needed leader until Yeshua/Jesus returns.
There are good people on christian radio who do not fleece the flock.
Exactly - their teachings are solid and worth listening to.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/21/2008 1:34:12 AM
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peacebringer
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See here is the thing. The concept of "central" leadership is a misnomer. It is what the NAR are and their "offices" theology promote. Unity by central leadership.
Yes, the church is factured, because he have gone against the bible and seperated based on gifts and flawed understandings of God. Given that exists, in whatever church body you are a part of there is a leadership structure that may or may not be doing there duty. Somes church government works, sometimes it doesn't. The true leadership exists in the church as a whole related to the people God raises up. The true elders and apostles in the varied churches. Not those that declare an office, but those that walk in the gifts God set before them. When there is leadership submitted to God it is great. When leadership however, is into building their own kingdoms versus walking in surrender to the head, then it is problematic. So I don't think there is one voice for the church, nor do I think there should be. Each branch of the body though needs to be in submission to the appropriate leaders.
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/21/2008 4:34:14 PM
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bgwill3
Posts: 59
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I think I would echo the sentiments of some here.
I don't know that there are any "leaders" in the sense that the OP seems to define the word: someone to stand up against abuses, false doctrine, etc.
I am convinced that this was the role of the apostles. Now, if there are genuine apostles today, then perhaps these would be the ones who should be speaking out in such a manner. However, the prevailing view seems to be that only the eyewitnesses of the resurrection (which Paul numbers over 500, including himself) would have a right to properly claim the title. In that case, there would be no apostles, properly so-called, today; and the pastors of the local assemblies would be held accountable for guarding their own flocks from deceptive influences and from false teaching.
At his departure from Ephesus, Paul charged the "elders of the church" (whom he also calls "overseers") at Ephesus to feed the flock and protect from false teachers (Acts 20:17-31). So I think the local leaders are principally responsible to the specific task mentioned in the OP.
There are some who work primarily in apologetics, but they have their own followings, and some apologists oppose others. I don't think there is any one person, or group of persons, esteemed as "leaders" of the present-day Body of Christ. But I don't think there needs to be. I think God accomplishes, at the local level, the protection of his people from false doctrine.
With the Bentley example, the local pastor should speak out from the pulpit against the antics that masquerade as a move of God. If your pastor, though, has been deceived himself, then that would be something to meet with him about, to express your opinions. Depending on how that goes, perhaps it's time to find a church in which the pastor has spiritual discernment. I am not for church-hopping, but I have seen the spiritual leadership in a church break down, and it is a very unfortunate thing.
The nationally-renowned preachers and teachers in the poll should be willing to proclaim the truth in the face of a lie, but to me it seems like one should be more concerned with whether his local pastor--through whom he receives the majority of Bible teaching he hears--is willing to do so. If Billy Graham were for or against a certain doctrine doesn't affect me or impact my life nearly as much as what my pastor teaches me on a weekly basis.
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‡ Brian ‡
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/21/2008 10:01:59 PM
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Sonrise
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I've got a question about Charles Stanley; I've always liked him and found him biblically sound but I've recently found out that he and his wife divorced in 2000 after a long separation since 92/93. CS initially said that he would step down as pastor if he divorced but then changed his mind. My question is, as objectively as possible, using biblical standards what's your opinion of this? Thanks
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/21/2008 10:44:03 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2531
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
CS initially said that he would step down as pastor if he divorced but then changed his mind. My question is, as objectively as possible, using biblical standards what's your opinion of this? Thanks
From what I understand, his wife was the one who left him. His elder board convinced him, that he still had biblical grounds for continuing as pastor.
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/21/2008 11:22:30 PM
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Sonrise
Posts: 109
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
CS initially said that he would step down as pastor if he divorced but then changed his mind. My question is, as objectively as possible, using biblical standards what's your opinion of this? Thanks
From what I understand, his wife was the one who left him. His elder board convinced him, that he still had biblical grounds for continuing as pastor.
Why did she leave him? I honestly don't know if it's our business or not; maybe because he's a public Christian leader it is? Not sure.
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/22/2008 12:02:54 AM
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bgwill3
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If she really left him, it's not our business. We have no clue as to what actually happened in their marriage. We have to make a judgment based on what we know, and based on all we can know. Since we are not invited into his personal life, we must only pray, and see whether God has anything to say. I personally don't have a problem receiving the Word, properly taught and examined according to Scripture, from anyone, no matter who he is. Even if at one time he was an adulterer, or a fornicator, or whatever.
Sometimes I wonder whether some of the Modern railing against teachers is akin to what Paul must have experienced when he was initially converted (and was known as Saul). One of the principle persecutors of the followers of Jesus the Christ is now proclaiming this "gospel" ? Even members of the church at Jerusalem were suspicious.
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‡ Brian ‡
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RE: Who are the Church Leaders today? - 7/22/2008 7:15:20 AM
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csl7037
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I've always been pretty bothered by Stanley's divorce as well and I'm just not sure what I think about it. I admit, I've not prayed about it. I've got a couple of his books but it's not something I've thought about a great deal but in passing I've wondered.
I think his board and his church were the ones with the responsibility to ask him to stay or go - and they asked him to stay. We (outside the church) think of him as a teacher, writer, or "tv guy" but he is a Pastor. It's when I remind myself of that that I really am bothered by his divorce. It's not like members of his church could really go to his office for marriage counselling. His church is so enormous, I'm sure he's got an associate for that and probably hasn't counselled for many years - but maybe that's a problem too. And it's not we're talking about Gary Smalley or James Dobson - guys who base their ministries and careers on issues of marriage and family. But, I admit, it still doesn't sit well with me either.
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