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Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/2/2008 1:49:01 PM
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ladyamythist
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Why do men like to support, or provide? I think that this is a big thing to look to men for. Do men actually like to go out there in the world, to the work place and "slay the dragon"? After working for most of my adult life, I just can't see why a man would want to. It is difficult in the work world. To be drawn to participate in that life, willingly, is alot for me. I know that some will answer that it is their ego, and that it could be pride, but, I don't think that the quality exhibited would fall in that category. I think a mature reason has to do with loving the people that he is responsible for. It's a way to say and prove that they love them. However, it appears to be even more than that. It appears to be a part of the male psyche. Okay, men, what do you think?
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/2/2008 1:52:20 PM
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ladyamythist
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I'm thinking about this, and, of course, I get thoughts of a man wanting to use the hunting skills, the conquering skills that are found in the male of the species, so to speak. The analytical skills, the mental aspect of the working game...that could also be a part of why a man enjoys this part of his life and wants to be the provider. so, maybe my question is why does a man enjoy this part of his life and realtionships?
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/2/2008 1:59:25 PM
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gengwall
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I think we are designed, psychologically and physically, that way, and our "desire" is fueled by that design. In essence, it is a desire to do what you were designed to do. It is similar to the deep desire most women feel (and all women are born with) to nurture. Unfortunately, post-industrial culture has turned both gender's worlds upside down.
(I was writing while you posted your follow-up. I would say you have it dead on. Those are the kinds of psychological and physical design elements which shape our "purpose").
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/2/2008 2:13:15 PM
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ladyamythist
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You know, Gengwall, I would get out of a man's way to provide. To have someone that thinks that way is just too awesome! Whatever the level of support it was, I could work with it. I have had much, and had more fun when their was less and it called into play my own qualities of budgeting and stuff. It's like a game, then, to see what you can do with what you have. Budgeting is a kick, and I am lucky to not be high maintenance.
That would be another question, too, wouldn't it? How high a level do you expect to have to maintain for a woman, or should the woman adapt to you? Whoa! That's another chapter! LOL!!! I know, it all depends on how worldly you are, perhaps, and what your goals for this world are.
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/2/2008 5:10:06 PM
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ChoirDJ
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I'm not so sure men "like" having to work although we can find satisfaction in our work. Given the choice, most men would probably choose not to work but we do what we have to do in order to take care of our own....and Yes, one of the ways men do show their love is by working hard to provide for the needs of their family.
What I think some men don't understand is that women need a lot more than just someone who provides in order to feel loved and cared for. A lot of us get confused about how a spouse could feel unloved after we break our backs to provide for them but you hint at the answer to that in your post. We have to provide for the emotional needs even if it comes at the expense of "more material things." My mother stated in a recent conversation that some of the happiest times in my parents' marriage were when they had the least but enjoyed each other's company. Nowadays, we think we have obtain the American Dream in order to be happy and we're willing to go to any extreme to do it.
My Ex grew up in poverty and without a father so I wanted to give her those things she never had. I worked two jobs, bought us two homes, a new BMW for her, and a boat and I couldn't understand why she was still not happy after I worked so hard to give her these things. What she really needed was for me to be there but I was so exhausted by the time I came home that I had no gas left in the tank. The wake-up call for me was when I had to take a stress leave on my second job, which I had been performing poorly on. They "phased out" my position when I treid to come back and that was one of the greatest blessings that could have happened for many reasons.
Moral of the Story: Nice things are okay to have if you can afford them without sacrificing the greater things in exchange for them so live within your means. In the long run, your family needs you more than the "things" and they may not necessarily realize that until later on.
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/2/2008 5:10:57 PM
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gengwall
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ladyamythist
You know, Gengwall, I would get out of a man's way to provide. To have someone that thinks that way is just too awesome! Whatever the level of support it was, I could work with it. I have had much, and had more fun when their was less and it called into play my own qualities of budgeting and stuff. It's like a game, then, to see what you can do with what you have. Budgeting is a kick, and I am lucky to not be high maintenance.
That would be another question, too, wouldn't it? How high a level do you expect to have to maintain for a woman, or should the woman adapt to you? Whoa! That's another chapter! LOL!!! I know, it all depends on how worldly you are, perhaps, and what your goals for this world are.
I should add that I don't believe this means that for a given couple, the man must be the major provider and the woman must be the major nuturer in order for the marriage to be godly or for the right headship/submission/service paradigm to exist. I do think that goes somewhat against nature, but it may be an acceptable manifestation of nurture. Every couple needs to assess roles based on individual giftedness and experience. I have a hard time finding justification in the bible for such expressions as:
If the man doesn't provide he can't lead effectively
If the woman is the main provider she is not submitting
Reversal of the traditional roles indicates a marriage out of line with God's design
etc.
As I said, our culture has turned things upside down but that doesn't mean that an upside down arrangement can't work and that the main organizational structure, with the husband as head, can't still operate effectively.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 5/2/2008 5:17:37 PM >
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/2/2008 9:15:33 PM
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buckifn
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I think it is part of our genetic coding which originated with Adam in the garden. It's not only work...it also gives some of us great joy to provide for our families.
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/2/2008 10:02:06 PM
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colliefan
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Not only is it encoded in us by God, it is part of His word. "If a man does not provide for his family he is worse than a non-believer." "A man must love his wife as Christ loved the church." But notice it says provide and not wish grantor.
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/2/2008 11:35:21 PM
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9drtr
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Why do women want men to provide and be leaders?
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When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/3/2008 10:41:52 AM
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PreserveWildlife
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Any generalization may be true for most but not for all. However, I believe we were endowed by our Creator with the desire to lead and provide. It's part of the nature of what it means to be male.
I am a leader by inclination and training. And I do, in a metaphorical sense, see it as dragons to slay when I resolve problems.
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/3/2008 11:20:22 AM
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ladyamythist
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When I run into a man that does lead, take the reigns, guide me gently, a word spoken, a look, a note, or, even a manly warning...I just adore it, and love it. I know you have all read/heard that sex (between married couples), starts in the morning and you build the woman to it. That's from Christian books. Well, it's true. A man who knows how to lead is a physical turn on, as well. It's not just an affection a woman has for a man like that, but, more. I remember a fellow who was so unattractive, you really hoped he wouldn't talk to you. Then, once you got to know him, you were just gaga for the guy. What a powerful leader he was, and the women that just adored him, me included, were many.
As women, we need to be aware of the effect this type of man has on us, as it could be used against us. I think a man that is a natural leader is a total turn on. He can write his ticket, so to speak.
Now, why do we women really want that? I think that this is how God has us programmed, and we shouldn't ignore our program. I feel feminie in the presence of such a man, I feel quiet, knowing that he can handle anything that comes along, and in my spirit is a bubbling joy that happens. I am a woman and God made me this way. It's His delight that I am this way.
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/4/2008 5:49:32 PM
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YZGUY
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Gen. 2:5 "Every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground."
Maybe here, we can see that God created man to work, as God mentioned that there was not a man to work. This was one of the reasons God created man - to work. Work and provision kinda go hand-in-hand. So, I'd say (& agree) we were designed for it by God, that provision comes with it, and that we find satisfaction in a job well done.
Women were created for relationship (not good for man to be alone - created a "suitable" helper). Maybe, at some level then, women look to men to be providers b/c she is aware that he was created to work and provide (not that women can't - Prov. 31) as Adam did in the garden. But since women were created for relationship, they also look to men to provide a relationship (intimacy), too.
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/4/2008 8:32:11 PM
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RatherDashing
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1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Essentially, man was created as a leader, provider, and preserver (Ge 1:26). It's our natural role.
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/7/2008 12:15:08 PM
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Jazzlvr
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ladyamythist
Why do men like to support, or provide? I think that this is a big thing to look to men for. Do men actually like to go out there in the world, to the work place and "slay the dragon"? After working for most of my adult life, I just can't see why a man would want to. It is difficult in the work world. To be drawn to participate in that life, willingly, is alot for me. I know that some will answer that it is their ego, and that it could be pride, but, I don't think that the quality exhibited would fall in that category. I think a mature reason has to do with loving the people that he is responsible for. It's a way to say and prove that they love them. However, it appears to be even more than that. It appears to be a part of the male psyche. Okay, men, what do you think?
First, let me say that I prefer the word protector to supporter, because both the husband and wife can be supporttive of the other in whatever role they are filling.
So the question, I think, ought to be, "Why do men want to protect and provide?"
In short, because God both designed and commanded us to protect and provide.
Genesis 2:15 "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it."
This scripture shows that God had a purpose for man. To work and be fulfilled by working.
First Timothy 5:8 "If anyone does not provide for his relatives and especially for his immediate family he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
Here, it is shown that we are commanded to provide
Ephesians 5:21-33 reads in part, 23 "For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior." and 25 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her."
The underlined passage shows that Gods design was for the husband to be the leader and those in bold type show that it was Gods design that man be the protector.
Colossians 3:18, 19 "Wives submit to your husbands as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them."
Again, this passage shows Gods design for man to be the leader and protector.
For most men, being the provider, protector and leader is, for good or ill, a part of who and what we are. We incorporate it into our identity.
Take a look at a man who has, through an accident or illness, lost his ability to work and provide for his family. He most often falls into depression. He has lost a part of his identity.
Do we like going out into the world to, as you say, "slay the dragon"? If a man has a career he loves then yes he does look forward to it. But even a man who hates his job willingly goes out and does that job every day simply because he loves his family and desires to provide for them and lead them to the best of his ability.
I will admit that there is pride and ego involved because every man enjoys being able to stand back and look at his handiwork or plan successfully completed. A man who is good at what he does is admired by his family, friends, co-workers and the community at large and that does things for a mans ego, but mostly a man does these things because that's the way God made us and what he commanded us to do.
There are different roles for both man and woman. If you will look at Proverbs 31: 10-31 you will see a "Wife of Noble Character" described. She manages the household. She is able to take what the husband brings home and use it for the maintenance of the house, property, servants and family. It is in a womans nature to be the nurturer and in the mans nature to be the provider. Two different roles. Although, some men may be more nurturing or a woman, more of a provider by nature, the man is still commanded by God, through scripture to be the head of the family or the leader.
All by design and command.
< Message edited by Jazzlvr -- 5/7/2008 12:28:20 PM >
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RE: Why do men want to provide? or be leaders? - 5/7/2008 5:25:57 PM
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gengwall
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Just a point of clarification. Although I agree in general with what everyone is saying, I believe the 1 Timothy verse is being promoted out of context. This section of scripture is not in any way directed at only husbands/fathers (they, as a group of providers, are not even mentioned). Moreover, the passage relates to the taking care of widows and other needy members of the extended family, not wives and children. The instruction is for everyone who has the means to aid those less fortunate or indigent in the family as opposed to placing the burden for their care on the church. For example, verse 4 instructs children to take care of their older parents and grandparents. Verse 16 is directed at women to take care of widows in the family. The verse in question, verse 8, although it contains male pronouns is really not gender specific and is certainly not husband/father specific. Below is the entire section from the NIV.
quote:
1 Tim 5:3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5 The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7 Give the people these instructions, too, so that no one may be open to blame. 8 If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 9 No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, 10 and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds. 11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. 14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan. 16 If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need.
This is an important distinction. I have known people who have used this verse to shame and chastise men who are not the major financial provider for their family. The bible never says that the man must be the major provider and certainly doesn't command he be the sole provider any more than it commands the woman be the sole nurturer. Despite our fallen state, marriage is still a partnership which requires the participation of both spouses to one degree or another in all aspects of running the family.
It is certainly clear that in historic times, where providing primarily consisted of pursuits that were geered toward the unique giftedness of males (mainly physical, spacial, and mathematical), that the expectation and reality was that men were almost always the major providers for the family and often were the sole providers. But even in biblical times this was not a "rule" or the law, as is evidenced by another portion of Proverbs 31, which was selectively quoted above. The "perfect" woman described in Proverbs 31 certainly is the primary nurturer in the family but she also provides (see vs. 15-18 and 24) and protects (v. 21).
In the pre-fall garden, the distribution of labor was even more equal. Although the man was placed in the garden to work it, the woman was given to him as a side-by-side helper. Of course, prior to the fall, the work was not hard and subduing the earth and populating it was a joint effort (the charge is to both equally). The fundimental division in labor within the family comes only after the fall, and the gross misapplication of that division through unhealthy patriarchy is a cultural phenomenon inspired not by God but by our enemy, who will destroy families and the individuals in them in any way he can.
We live in very different times now. Many jobs which are well suited to providing are not well suited to male giftedness, particularly in the post-modern west. God, in His omniscience, knows this and therefore did not set up narrowly defined and unalterable "roles" for males and females within the family. The day to day operations of the family can be deligated to that spouse who is most experienced or gifted, and if that means the wife makes the majority of the money and the husband stays home with the kids, and that is what works for that family the best, God certainly has not indicated He has a problem with that.
None of this changes the core message in the responses here. Men still feel deep in their soul the need to provide, and it is the wise woman who recognizes that and praises that desire in her mate regardless of who makes the most. Men are still far better suited to physically protect, as we have not progressed to the point in society where the threat of physical harm has been eradicated. And men are still designated as "head" of the family, the one point that God has chosen to be crystal clear about. But headship is a position of responsibility, not priviledge. It is realized through service to the family, not servitude of the family. Providing and protecting are all part of this responsibility and service, but only part. And the model of headship and submission between husband and wife can tolerate a wide variety of actual configurations in the practical activities of daily living.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 5/8/2008 10:56:24 AM >
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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