|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/17/2006 3:06:43 PM
|
|
|
GregandJenny
Posts: 291
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
Status: offline
|
That's a good enough answer.
_____________________________
The Will of God never takes you to where the Grace of God will not protect you
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/18/2006 10:13:22 AM
|
|
|
buckifn
Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/23/2006
Status: offline
|
If a man and woman are honoring their marriage vows, force will not be something that has to happen for either one of them to receive fulfillment. If they are not, then I would think the wise decision would be ending the marriage before violence happens. Failing to honor our vows brings consequences, and in that kind of scenario I think the consequence would prob be divorce. Both parties have the same opportunity to walk away before violence happens, so I think there is responsibility on both sides.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/18/2006 10:23:32 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3654
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
However, divorce should never be an option. "...til death do us part," right?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/18/2006 12:29:25 PM
|
|
|
Gluelin
Posts: 44
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
original TequilaMockingbird:
I'm very late on this thread, I just stumbled onto it from another thread: The "He Says" Response Thread which led me to the Punishment for marital rape thread in the Men Only Forum.
So many posts, so little time to read them, but I got a gist from the guys what they thought of marital rape and overall I was rather disturbed. They were bothering too much with "gray areas". How is a husband physically forcing his wife to have sex a gray area? And to throw in the Bible to prove that husbands can't really rape their wives because they are considered one person is sick.
Makes me wonder about all the Christian men out there.
========================================
Men don't know what it's like to be the weaker sex, to have stronger, physically overpowering individuals staring at their various body parts making them wonder if their life is in danger. To hope and pray that while they're traveling late at night no monstrous thug will overpower them and do or try to do things to them. They don't have a fear stuck in the back of their head of the possibility of being sexually assaulted the way it's ingrained in women. It's not something you can adequately explain. And to see the word "rape" so casually thrown around scares me.
Having to ask what rape in marriage is, makes me wonder. If it's rape outside the marriage, it's rape within the marriage. If a husband punching his wife sends him to jail, then so should rape.
Brothers, is this the way we want our sisters to see us? I don't think so. As men of God, we should be protecting our women, making them feel safe; and not adding to their fears.
Why would we want men to know what’s its like to be the weaker sex in any respect? Men are not women and shouldn’t be made to feel as if they need to know how it feels to be a woman.
And why should we be made to feel that we cannot express our thoughts and feelings if they are not understood or agreed with by most women. Should we only express a woman’s view of things, or views that we know will not be offending or threatening to a woman. This forum is set up for discussions among men. If it comes across as too challenging, perhaps the women who peak should heed the statement beneath the Forum Description: “Talk about manly man stuff. MEN ONLY”
No reasonable husband believes that rape is justifiable, even in marriage. If there’s no distinction between marital rape and non-marital, why ask what difference should there be in punishment. If the issue is, is marital rape defensible or provable, then the way the question is framed, i.e. using “marital rape”, still creates pretty much a one-sided argument. Who’s going to argue, yeah (marital) rape is defensible? But if the question is, is having sex with your wife without her consent (“consent” being the determining factor, and not “forcible”) rape, well then, maybe there’s a legitimate discussion, at least from the male perspective. I’m sure few if any females would argue that it’s not rape. If a wife doesn’t consent, but doesn’t resist, is that marital rape? I’m kind of thinking that’s where GregandJenny was going with his question.
I don’t see that any of the posts argue that rape is okay in any situation. Where they may be misunderstood is in the assertion that rape may not exist within marriage, and I think only a few, if any hold that view. And I think they are not referring to physically violent situations, but more in the area of consent/no consent. I’m sure Tequila was simply using hyperbole in saying that she wonders about ALL the Christian men out there. We know what rape is and we know its wrong and most of us will never even think about committing such a crime and sin. This is a forum, for the most part we’re just thinking and opining out loud, which is always easier when we’re anonymous.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/18/2006 12:51:00 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3654
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
Why would we want men to know what’s its like to be the weaker sex in any respect? Because Peter commanded husbands to live with their wives "according to knowledge." (1Pe 3:7) i.e. we should have some idea how they see things, what their experience is.
We are men. We do things differently and see things very differently. However, when that starts making our women feel unsafe, or threatened, we have crossed a line. There is a place for airing our ideas and opinions. We all need to do that. Women can learn a lot about us by seeing these discussions. IMO, that is a very good thing.
By the same token, if they are expressing concern on what they see here, we should be aware of that and learn from them as well.
If this idea is being misunderstood, how can we better communicate to avoid misunderstandings?
If it is accurately understood and still a cause for concern, then we need to pray and seek out in the Word to find out if we should change our opinion.
We are men. We can do this.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/18/2006 8:08:07 PM
|
|
|
galbro48026
Posts: 3
Joined: 8/14/2006
Status: offline
|
the only thing in the bible ive seen about rape is in Deut 22:28-29 but it involves premarial sex not marrriage....
there are many rules in the OT about fair treatment on women such as proper food, clothing, etc....
See exodus 21
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/19/2006 11:43:07 AM
|
|
|
zamdad
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
|
A man from my church was recently convicted of marital rape. I've heard his side of the story. I don't think I'll ever hear hers as she has moved away. Of course, his story paints himself out to be the innocent victim. I know that the truth can only be found somewhere between his story and hers. What I have gleaned from the information I know thus far is that the relationship was toxic from the beginning. Both entered the relationship for selfish reasons. It seems they were two ticks with no dog. They fell in lust and confused it with love.
He has to do some jail time. He has a prison sentence hanging over his head. He is required to register as a sex offender and will have to complete sex offender treatment in the community. As I said, he sees himself as the victim here. He talks about being in jail and ministering to other inmates while locked up. But, he does not see how God is working in his life. It seems that God is trying to break him, but he doesn't want to be broken. He seems to want God on his terms rather than God's terms.
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/19/2006 12:49:47 PM
|
|
|
Gluelin
Posts: 44
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
A man from my church was recently convicted of marital rape. I've heard his side of the story. I don't think I'll ever hear hers as she has moved away. Of course, his story paints himself out to be the innocent victim. I know that the truth can only be found somewhere between his story and hers. what is his side of the story, and why do you not completely believe him? You sort of left the rest of us hanging. Also, is there a specific crime of marital rape that is a separate crime from other rapes? Just wondering. quote:
What I have gleaned from the information I know thus far is that the relationship was toxic from the beginning. Both entered the relationship for selfish reasons. It seems they were two ticks with no dog. They fell in lust and confused it with love. The assumption here, as it often is, is that ALL sexual attraction is lust. I'm pretty sure that most men have some sexual attraction toward the women they end up marrying. I'm thinking that when Paul writes, "But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband " that he's trying to help men channel their urges--which you call LUST--into the appropriate venue in order to avoid immorality. Lust, as you call it (I call it sexual attraction), is often a BIG motivator for why men get married.
< Message edited by Gluelin -- 8/19/2006 4:24:17 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/19/2006 3:13:45 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 1107
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
Somewhere in here, the idea of what 'rape' really is seems to be getting lost.
Rape really has nothing to do with attraction or sexuality. It is usually about power and control. Much of the time anger is also a huge factor.
'Lust' is... This is the physical need a man has to satisfy the sexual urges that are normal. His wife's job (amongst many others) is to help make the imperious beast within be more tame. The husband's job (amongst many others) is to nurture her and provide an environment where she feels comfortable and even looks forward to doing her 'job'.
Marital rape is usually something that stems from a man not holding up his end of it, and expecting her to hold up hers... Nothing more than selfishness, really. "I want what I want, and I'm not going to do anything to compensate her for it."
If both the man and the woman are actively persuing the will of God, and are practicing their faith honestly, there will never be a cause for this in their lives. For the most part, if only one of them is (but truly is), then the issue still won't arise. Any Christian couple living in a manner that makes marital rape a true concern really needs to look at the truth of their salvation in the first place...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/19/2006 7:49:05 PM
|
|
|
HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 956
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Buffalo Trading Post
Status: offline
|
Wow, this thread is really making the intimacy of a married couple out to be a mighty ugly thing. It's been labeled a duty, a job, an obligation, and a right. Very ugly.
_____________________________
John Galt '08
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/19/2006 9:22:55 PM
|
|
|
unixfreak
Posts: 4
Joined: 4/16/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
That's like saying you just STOLE something from a store that you legally had paid for in full.
Our wives are not slaves that are bought.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/19/2006 9:29:21 PM
|
|
|
unixfreak
Posts: 4
Joined: 4/16/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
I still think adultery should bring the death penalty.
It does, but thank Him for His grace.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/19/2006 9:34:15 PM
|
|
|
figmentPez
Posts: 2601
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
Wow, this thread is really making the intimacy of a married couple out to be a mighty ugly thing. It's been labeled a duty, a job, an obligation, and a right. Very ugly.
So, is it your opinion that Paul made marital intimacy into "a mighty ugly thing" when he referred to it as a duty (1Corinthians 7:3)? Or do you merely prefer the KJV translation where it's caled "due benevolence"? Either way, it is something that is owed. (I do find it interesting that the husband's duty to the wife is mentioned first). Not that sexual intimacy should ever be taken by force, but as far as I can see from scripture it is a central part of what marriage is ideally supposed to be. Worship is our duty to God, we are obligated to give it to Him, but that doesn't make worship an ugly thing. Why should saying that sexual intimacy is our duty to our spouse making it a dirty thing?
EDIT: Just to be clear on my feelings on the original subject in general, forcing someone into sex either by physical power or by threat is always rape, marriage or not. Having known a woman who was raped, repeatedly, by her husband and what that abuse did to her... *shudder* I can only begin to grasp the true horror of what that man did.
< Message edited by figmentPez -- 8/19/2006 9:43:36 PM >
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/19/2006 9:36:43 PM
|
|
|
unixfreak
Posts: 4
Joined: 4/16/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
See, even then, I have a problem with it. A wife and husband are to give to each other of this. If a man is pinning her down, yet lovingly trying to... ehh it's too "grey".
If a man is pinning his wife down, he IS NOT LOVING HER!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/19/2006 10:06:53 PM
|
|
|
HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 956
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Buffalo Trading Post
Status: offline
|
quote:
So, is it your opinion that Paul made marital intimacy into "a mighty ugly thing" when he referred to it as a duty (1Corinthians 7:3)? Or do you merely prefer the KJV translation where it's caled "due benevolence"?
Pez, you can dissect what I typed any which way you like, but if you can tell me this thread puts a positive shine on marital relations, you and I have zero to talk about anymore.
_____________________________
John Galt '08
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/19/2006 10:12:42 PM
|
|
|
figmentPez
Posts: 2601
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
quote:
So, is it your opinion that Paul made marital intimacy into "a mighty ugly thing" when he referred to it as a duty (1Corinthians 7:3)? Or do you merely prefer the KJV translation where it's caled "due benevolence"?
Pez, you can dissect what I typed any which way you like, but if you can tell me this thread puts a positive shine on marital relations, you and I have zero to talk about anymore.
No, you're right, this thread is putting a pretty icky spin on the subject, but I doubt that could have been avoided given the basic subject (namely: rape). However, I do take issue with your condemning other posts simply because they use certain words.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/19/2006 11:30:41 PM
|
|
|
zamdad
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
what is his side of the story, and why do you not completely believe him? You sort of left the rest of us hanging. Also, is there a specific crime of marital rape that is a separate crime from other rapes? Just wondering.
Depending on the state you live in, rape is defined as sexual assault, criminal sexual conduct, or something similar. There is nothing that distinguishes marital rape from any other type os sexual assault. Essentially, rape or sexual assault is sexual contact with another person who cannot legally consent. If your wife gets drunk, she is not legally capable of consent. It might be a difficult charge to prove in court, but intoxication is one of the factors considered when determining consent.
As for the man from my church. I chose not to divulge too much detail about the situation. There are a number of people from my church who know my screen name and I don't want to break confidence or set the gossip chain in motion.
I don't believe his side of the story because after 5 years of working with sex offenders I am very suspicious of men who claim to be the victim in cases such as this.
quote:
The assumption here, as it often is, is that ALL sexual attraction is lust. I'm pretty sure that most men have some sexual attraction toward the women they end up marrying.
I can't disagree with this statement. I know this was the case for me. Yet, one of the things I've learned through working with sex offenders and sitting in on sex offender treatment combined with the continual maturing in my faith, is that our tendency is to put our sexual desires ahead of Jesus Christ while giving lip service to our faith in Him.
quote:
Lust, as you call it (I call it sexual attraction), is often a BIG motivator for why men get married.
Again, i can't disagree. BUt marrying for the sake of sex is rather short sighted. A man then has to build a friendship with the woman he marries. It could be that this is why so many marriages fail. We get married simply to scratch the itch which is nothing more than, as Every Man's Battle describes it, athletes foot of the mind. I think that what scripture teaches about human relationships is counter cultural. We are taught to love and respect one another, to commit and care for each other until we are called to our heavenly home. But the culture teaches us to exchange bodily fluids before we get to know and understand one another. Our tendency is to follow the teachings of the culture when seeking to find someone to scratch that itch.
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/20/2006 1:05:20 AM
|
|
|
Sc1t0r
Posts: 226
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
My position is that men who rape women ought to go to jail, whether they're married to the victim or not. If the frequency isn't good enough for you, learn to deal. I can't believe anyone would support anything else. Talk to the men at CW who are 30 or 40 years old and not married, they deal, so can you.
You got a point there. I'd call dealing, sacrifice. I've been sacrificing since birth for my wife, hope I make it.
_____________________________
Sc1t0r - to seek knowledge
Like the butterfly...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/20/2006 9:34:42 AM
|
|
|
Gluelin
Posts: 44
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
Wow, this thread is really making the intimacy of a married couple out to be a mighty ugly thing. It's been labeled a duty, a job, an obligation, and a right. Very ugly.
It's not men who make it out to be a mighty ugly thing. Whether, for the wife or the husband, its a duty, a job, an obligation, a right, or something else, most men don't care as long as its occurring. So who considers intimacy of a married couple all those things? Why should men be made to feel guilty for expecting intimacy in their marriage. What's so ugly about that. Where else should a man expect sexual initimacy. What's ugly is that so many men end up dealing with sacrifice. I suppose sacrifice (in the context of marital intimacy) is our duty too? Or maybe its our job, our obligation, or our right?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/20/2006 7:29:43 PM
|
|
|
Pwrlftng4Jesus
Posts: 2
Joined: 8/20/2006
Status: offline
|
Rape is rape period and the punishment should be just as strict as those handed out to non-married couples. i run a domestic violence program and one of the sections I cover is violent sexual abuse. If a "person" says no and the other person forces, threathens, or coerces, (through tactics that are controlling & intimidating) another person to do something they don't want to do then it is rape. Notice i say "person". I also run women's groups and press the point of forced sexual abuse on their spouses/significant others. i also present this to teens groups. Teen date rape is high, but most goes unreported because teens think well it was my boyfriend/girlfriend.
Pwrlifting4Jesus
Phil 4:13
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/21/2006 7:26:42 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 3654
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
FYI, while we are talking about "duty" etc, it would be good to remember the attitude of Jewish society toward this. Jesus and Paul would have both been very familiar with this stance and without them specifically commenting against it, it stands. That attitude is this: Sex is a wife's right and a husband's responsibility. Jesus said nothing against this at all and Paul modifies it somewhat to say that neither should deny the other. However, this should still be the basic underlying attitude.
This is recorded in the Mishnah which actually lists how many times (annual minimum) a wife can expect it from her husband based on his profession and that she can legally force him to change jobs to provide more if it is insufficient. Many jobs that did not involve extreme heavy labor or did not involve travel required it daily. Based on a passage in Exodus, if the husband takes a 2nd wife, and diminishes the first wife's quantity of sex or other sustainance, she could sue in a rabbinic court to force him to satisfy her or give her a divorce.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/21/2006 2:53:26 PM
|
|
|
shawke
Posts: 7190
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline
|
I believe this is an issue where the Golden Rule should be applied. That rule seems to be thrown into the garbage lately in favor of self gratification and MeFirstism.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/21/2006 3:47:34 PM
|
|
|
buckifn
Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/23/2006
Status: offline
|
Dave- I agree divorce "should not be" an option...but Jesus said it was allowed because of hardness of the heart..and if a man and woman do not have enough unity to agree on sharing the spiritual gift of sex within the marriage as God intended it to be, then I would say that is a clear case of someone with a hardened heart. I hate divorce, but would choose that before choosing physical violence.
However, this whole scenario is one I have a difficult time imagining..there has got to be a LOT of things wrong in a relationship that would get to the point the op described...
posters who keep saying this reflects bad on christian men makes no sense to me because as a christian man who loves God and loves my wife I can't imagine something like this happening..someone is clearly out of God's will , and when we allow that to happen then we open ouselves up to all sorts of consequences, none which are pretty.
If a woman is in fear "of a monstrous thug" attacking her, as tequilamockingbird referred to, that should in NO WAY be compared to a man in a christian marriage...because a christian man will honor God AND his wife.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/21/2006 9:22:30 PM
|
|
|
Uriah
Posts: 44
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
|
I work in a prison. In the late 80's or early 90's (probably the former) I had the first man in New York State convicted of marital rape working for me. According to his story, she invited him over, they drank, they had sex. Later she realized (because they were legally separated etc.) he had violated a court order to stay away. Regardless, it doesn't take much for a conviction depending on the circumstances. Like two people fighting out their frustrations and "friends" and lawyers full of "advice". No force or violence, she was "incapacitated" (she said) . According to him this was not the case (he said). On top of that, the marital rape law was not very old and I think the judge wanted to be the first to get his name in the records. Not that this guy wasn't a jerk, but it was more about the legal system than these two.
_____________________________
Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Punishment for marital rape - 8/22/2006 4:59:33 PM
|
|
|
Gluelin
Posts: 44
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: shawke
I believe this is an issue where the Golden Rule should be applied. That rule seems to be thrown into the garbage lately in favor of self gratification and MeFirstism.
Self-gratification doesn't alway result in marital rape. The sexual drive in men is 90% (maybe 99%+) about gratifiying self. Why is that negative?
I love to cook. When I'm hungry, I cook, then I call the family to the dinner. They all benefit from my desire to gratify my self by eating a tasty, hearty dinner. Likewise, my desire for sexual gratification may lie in my drive to please self, but my spouse may also benefit (that's arguable, but the analogy is still valid). In fact, the intimate relationship that I desire might even have value to the marital relationship itself.
Self gratification always takes a bad rap, and I think unreasonable so. The logical extension of avoiding all self gratification results in absurdity. Perhaps many men do apply the Golden rule, they are trying to do unto their wives as they'd like their wives to do unto them.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
