RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread

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rmiles -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (4/8/2008 2:20:51 PM)
I can really feel for those of us who have not only the burdens of the present but the present burderns of the past. I've spent years getting angry and frustrated at memories that simply won't let go. Yet, as time goes on the effects of those criticisms and condemnations have slowly become less hurtful. Nowadays my thoughts only go there once or twice a month. It has been close to 21 years since I first became ill, and about the last ten years I have been taking a med that works for me, and takes away the major symptoms of my illness. I have found over the years that the pains of the past don't always lose the intensity that they first had but that they can actually build in intensity because I also know how much they have effected me, and how much of my life they have taken away. The vast majority of my friends are people who also live with illness, and when I talk about this stuff they know exactly what I'm saying. And many of them have a sincere faith in Christ. Yet, building a Christian Fellowship is "frowned upon" within our Mental Health system, because of a) the stigmatized agenda of Christian ministry, and b) the effects of "spirituality" on delusional, manic, and depressive thinking. I'm wondering, though, if the arms of the church are not open wide for those suffering from Mental Illness, wouldn't professionals see this as another reason for keeping Christ out of the Psyche Ward? Luckily, (providentially) attitudes are slowly changing within our health system, but unfortunately more toward an eclectic ideology (i.e. spiritually is something which gives meaning to a person's life) within the psycho-social rehab methodology; which sees the benefits of church socialization, but not the daily activity of Jesus in our lives. You could almost say that we find ourselves stuck with a leg in two different worlds. So my question is, Is it possible to bring Christ into the psycho-social rehab model, and those being treated within that framework, without running into the issues of the "promotion of delusional ideologies"?

Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (4/9/2008 11:29:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rmiles So my question is, Is it possible to bring Christ into the psycho-social rehab model, and those being treated within that framework, without running into the issues of the "promotion of delusional ideologies"? This is an interesting question and seems to be a question simialar to the ones I often often find myself asking whenever my wife has a bi-polar episode. I have come to the conclusion that there is no area of human existence that is more difficult for Christians/ the church to minister to than in the area of mental health. I believe this is so because it not only challenges our beliefs in the spiritual conflict of good v evil/ God v Satan, but it challenges our beliefs in our own role/ position/ repsonsibility/ frailties. It challenges our beliefs in a God that answers prayers, but sometimes does not answer them when we want Him to, or in a way that we want Him to. It challenges the reality of problems brought into this world, and our lives as a result of Adam breaking Man's relationship with God. I do not mean to put down the work missionaries do, but it seems to me that in some respects ministering to people in other lands with different belief systems and cultures may be easier to minister to than to minister to people with a wide range of mental health issues whether they be mild or severe, not to mention behavour lifestyles once (and sometimes still) believed to be based on mental health issues. To some extent Christians are involved in mental health, and Christianity is accepted (as you pointed out). My experience has shown me that the problem/ the friction between mental health treatment and Christianity resullt from the disconnect; between reality and an appropriate/ realistic relationship with God/ Jesus in their situation; that many of those trying to minister to people with mental health issues seem to exhibit and preach. I do not mean to be critical of Charismatics in general. I belong to a church that is a bit charismatic/ Pentecostal, and I am well aware that not only does God work in a person's life in miraculous ways, He is able to miraculously cure people of illnesses that are believed to be incurable. I am also well aware that He has his own reasons for not answering prayers as we humans wish He would, when w wish He would. My issues are with those with an extreme interpretation of the Bible and what it says about "naming and claiming God's promises"-the "name it and claim it" crowd. Unfortuneately these are the kinds of Christians my wife tends to gravitates to, and who seem to be involved in ministries to people with mental health issues. From my experience it is these Christians (extreme Charisimatics)and their beliefs that, more often than not tend to make matters worse rather than better. It is also these same Christians/Charismatics that are no where to be found when a person with mental health issues relapses and once again ends up in a hospital or nursing home because God has not answered their prayers as, and when they desired Him to. If I may I would like to ask my own little question. Where is the Church in ministering to the family members of those dealing with mental health issues? Too often I have felt the invisible victim of my wife's illness. Too often I have felt myself, and been viewed as the responsible party (Jesus and Satan) in the illness's processes, and recovery.

rmiles -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (6/7/2008 12:51:28 AM)
I think people forget that when somebody is ill, the real people who support, help, and treat a person through the illness are family members. Doctors, nurses, and mental health workers work with the person who is ill, but if the person is not in a hospital or group home, the actual one on one assistance by professionals is most likely an hour or so a week (if the client is lucky). The other 23'50" a day (on average) is provided in one way or another by family members. One of the issues which families face is that because of privacy laws they may never really know the 'working' diagnosis or prognosis of the illness; which also restricts their ability to support the person they love. Family members may also take on the person's financial burdens, housing and medical care, along with providing basic needs including social and psychological support. Families also have the burden of advocating and educating people about a person's illness while balancing the real issues of trust and disclosure which the ill person has concerning his or her own illness. Family members are also usually the only people who have a real invested interest in the person who is ill, while at the same time being the ones who face the brunt of the person's illness and symptoms. It is obvious to me that family members are the real heroes when it comes to being primary care givers. Whether leadership or membership of a church recognizes the need for family support in terms of a "Primary Care Giver Bible Study group" or a "Mental Health Crisis Prayer Chain", may not fit the overall demographics of a particular church, and are thus lumped in together with all the other needs of the congregation, whose needs are met by the ten minute pastoral prayer on Sunday mornings. Maybe one solution is to get in contact with other churches in the community and find out if there are other primary caregivers (husbands, wives, children (adult and regular), brothers and sisters) who also have family members who are suffering with mental illness and forming a support group which meets the needs and beliefs of its members, as a supplement to the ministry of the churches to which people belong. At this time I am not aware of a particular ministry model by which to guide the development of such a group, but it would be much better than having family members living in a different form of isolation.

DenimDiva -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (6/7/2008 12:54:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 Where is the Church in ministering to the family members of those dealing with mental health issues? Too often I have felt the invisible victim of my wife's illness. Too often I have felt myself, and been viewed as the responsible party (Jesus and Satan) in the illness's processes, and recovery. Some churches are stepping up to the plate. However, too many still see it as taboo. We often do forget about the family members and friends who are trying to deal with a loved one's mental illness. That's too bad and it's an area that we Christians in general need to work on.

womaninchrist -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (6/7/2008 2:32:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva Some churches are stepping up to the plate. However, too many still see it as taboo. We often do forget about the family members and friends who are trying to deal with a loved one's mental illness. That's too bad and it's an area that we Christians in general need to work on. And that stigma/taboo is exactly the problem. Its exactly why so many churches won't minister to the mentally ill and their families or if they do it's only in ways that finger point and cast blame. Too many churches still hold onto beliefs that mental illnss is a character flaw, a spiritual failing, a lack of proper spiritual strength or practices, a sign of curses, proof of demonic activity/oppression/possession, proof of sin, etc. - rather than being an illness. When the church can get past this, we'll start seeing more and better ministry to the mentally ill and their families.

DenimDiva -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (6/7/2008 3:11:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: womaninchrist quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva Some churches are stepping up to the plate. However, too many still see it as taboo. We often do forget about the family members and friends who are trying to deal with a loved one's mental illness. That's too bad and it's an area that we Christians in general need to work on. And that stigma/taboo is exactly the problem. Its exactly why so many churches won't minister to the mentally ill and their families or if they do it's only in ways that finger point and cast blame. Too many churches still hold onto beliefs that mental illnss is a character flaw, a spiritual failing, a lack of proper spiritual strength or practices, a sign of curses, proof of demonic activity/oppression/possession, proof of sin, etc. - rather than being an illness. When the church can get past this, we'll start seeing more and better ministry to the mentally ill and their families. agreed

agapetos -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (6/7/2008 5:53:23 PM)
quote: I think people forget that when somebody is ill, the real people who support, help, and treat a person through the illness are family members. Actually, my family don't know that I have mental health problems. If they did, I'd be really ill (ie from them telling me what I should be doing). Added to which, they all live quite some distance away from me and I have no desire to move to be nearer them.

solo_soprano22 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (6/25/2008 11:33:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 Where is the Church in ministering to the family members of those dealing with mental health issues? Too often I have felt the invisible victim of my wife's illness. Too often I have felt myself, and been viewed as the responsible party (Jesus and Satan) in the illness's processes, and recovery. Some churches are stepping up to the plate. However, too many still see it as taboo. We often do forget about the family members and friends who are trying to deal with a loved one's mental illness. That's too bad and it's an area that we Christians in general need to work on. One of my friends is in pharmacy school (I'm in biology), and she told me that in her country they teach that mental illness is of the Devil or a result of sin... and because that's what she was taught, that's what she believed for a long time. She still doesn't get all the things that can cause it, but I think many Christians think mental illness is something you can intrinsically think yourself out of because it can have no real biological basis (e.g., you have some spiritual issues or some sin caused it).

DenimDiva -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (6/25/2008 11:45:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22 quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 Where is the Church in ministering to the family members of those dealing with mental health issues? Too often I have felt the invisible victim of my wife's illness. Too often I have felt myself, and been viewed as the responsible party (Jesus and Satan) in the illness's processes, and recovery. Some churches are stepping up to the plate. However, too many still see it as taboo. We often do forget about the family members and friends who are trying to deal with a loved one's mental illness. That's too bad and it's an area that we Christians in general need to work on. One of my friends is in pharmacy school (I'm in biology), and she told me that in her country they teach that mental illness is of the Devil or a result of sin... and because that's what she was taught, that's what she believed for a long time. She still doesn't get all the things that can cause it, but I think many Christians think mental illness is something you can intrinsically think yourself out of because it can have no real biological basis (e.g., you have some spiritual issues or some sin caused it). Oh, I've lost count of how many people have prayed the demons out of me. [8\|]

cow451 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (6/27/2008 1:34:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva quote: ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22 quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva quote: ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3 Where is the Church in ministering to the family members of those dealing with mental health issues? Too often I have felt the invisible victim of my wife's illness. Too often I have felt myself, and been viewed as the responsible party (Jesus and Satan) in the illness's processes, and recovery. Some churches are stepping up to the plate. However, too many still see it as taboo. We often do forget about the family members and friends who are trying to deal with a loved one's mental illness. That's too bad and it's an area that we Christians in general need to work on. One of my friends is in pharmacy school (I'm in biology), and she told me that in her country they teach that mental illness is of the Devil or a result of sin... and because that's what she was taught, that's what she believed for a long time. She still doesn't get all the things that can cause it, but I think many Christians think mental illness is something you can intrinsically think yourself out of because it can have no real biological basis (e.g., you have some spiritual issues or some sin caused it). Oh, I've lost count of how many people have prayed the demons out of me. [8\|] You must be really bad.[:D] Seriously, the people that have the most strident anti-mental health attitudes tend to be people I've found to have a few bricks missing.

galadriel2 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 8:54:26 AM)
The problem with the whole 'mental health' system is that the system itself was set up and designed by people attempting to replace the Gospel as the healer of men's souls and spirits with man's ideas as the healer. As a result several things prove drastically wrong with the mental health world: 1) a false paradigm (worldview) is given to people in which they are encouraged to dwell - one without Christ, 2) false categories of thought are given to people to embrace as true - i.e. - a) the term mental illness itself which implies no accountability to God and no ability to deal with your own thoughts, feelings, motives, actions, etc., b) the diagnoses - bipolar i.e. - better to stick with God's categories - sinner, in Adam, in Christ, son of God, sin, created in the image of God, practicing sin as opposed to committing individual sins and having an active though not sovereignly ruling over you sinful nature (what a mouthful), 3) no real knowledge and wisdom about what is going on in the person since they have rejected Christ in whom all knowledge and wisdom is found (Col. ch. 2), 4) no real solutions because of all the former points, and 5) only a psuedo-science to draw empty support of their theories from - it isn't an inexact science psychologists and psychiatrists refer to in their practice - it is pseudo-science. I should add that a sixth problem and spin-off is a perversion of the legal system with the opinions of Christ rejecting elite replacing ordinary legal processes and procedures. The net result is that the mental health system is a colossal failure. God bless all, Galadriel2

agapetos -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 9:13:18 AM)
quote: The problem with the whole 'mental health' system is that the system itself was set up and designed by people attempting to replace the Gospel as the healer of men's souls and spirits with man's ideas as the healer. quote: The net result is that the mental health system is a colossal failure. Ummm... but when I tried to study and learn without medication, I often had real difficulties. With medication things did become easier for me. With therapy (that'd be from a secular therapist by the way) I've been able to deal with a lot of the things that have plagued me throughout my life and it has become even easier for me to study, to worship, to forgive, to be forgiven, to take pleasure in life. God heals in many different ways. He has worked with me to provide the healing that I need to continue with my life as a Christian. There are some issues that I may need further therapy for, who knows. But it is God that put the doctors and people in my life to treat my pain. It is not that people are being encouraged to do without God, it is that they do not realise who the ultimate healer is. My doctors, my therapists, they're simply the tools that God uses, just as a surgeon would use a scalpel.

DenimDiva -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 11:37:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: galadriel2 The problem with the whole 'mental health' system is that the system itself was set up and designed by people attempting to replace the Gospel as the healer of men's souls and spirits with man's ideas as the healer. As a result several things prove drastically wrong with the mental health world: 1) a false paradigm (worldview) is given to people in which they are encouraged to dwell - one without Christ, 2) false categories of thought are given to people to embrace as true - i.e. - a) the term mental illness itself which implies no accountability to God and no ability to deal with your own thoughts, feelings, motives, actions, etc., b) the diagnoses - bipolar i.e. - better to stick with God's categories - sinner, in Adam, in Christ, son of God, sin, created in the image of God, practicing sin as opposed to committing individual sins and having an active though not sovereignty ruling over you sinful nature (what a mouthful), 3) no real knowledge and wisdom about what is going on in the person since they have rejected Christ in whom all knowledge and wisdom is found (Col. ch. 2), 4) no real solutions because of all the former points, and 5) only a pseudo-science to draw empty support of their theories from - it isn't an inexact science psychologists and psychiatrists refer to in their practice - it is pseudo-science. I should add that a sixth problem and spin-off is a perversion of the legal system with the opinions of Christ rejecting elite replacing ordinary legal processes and procedures. The net result is that the mental health system is a colossal failure. God bless all, Galadriel2 The problem with the whole medical system is that the system itself was set up and designed by people attempting to replace the Gospel as the healer of men's bodies, souls and spirits with man's ideas as the healer. As a result several things prove drastically wrong with the medical world: 1) a false paradigm (worldview) is given to people in which they are encouraged to dwell - one without Christ, 2) false categories of thought are given to people to embrace as true - i.e. - a) the term medical care itself which implies no accountability to God and no ability to deal with your own physical ailments, thoughts, feelings, motives, actions, etc., b) the diagnoses - eye problems - better to stick with God's categories - sinner, in Adam, in Christ, son of God, sin, created in the image of God, practicing sin as opposed to committing individual sins and having an active though not sovereignty ruling over your sinful nature (what a mouthful), 3) no real knowledge and wisdom about what is going on in the person since they have rejected Christ in whom all knowledge and wisdom is found (Col. ch. 2), 4) no real solutions because of all the former points, and 5) only a pseudo-science to draw empty support of their theories from - it isn't an exact science medical doctors refer to in their practice - it is pseudo-science. I should add that a sixth problem and spin-off is a perversion of the legal system with the opinions of Christ rejecting elite replacing ordinary legal processes and procedures. The net result is that the medical system is a colossal failure. And I would like to add that if you go to an eye doctor and they say that you need corrective lenses, they may be trying to take your eyes off Jesus. Better to skip the corrective lenses and admit that you're a sinner! You may have a hard time getting that one by DMV, but go for it! [:D] edited for clarity.

womaninchrist -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 2:03:15 PM)
Good points, Denim Diva. Sticking with mental health care, psychiatry and psychology are two separate fields of diagnosis and treatment. Psychiatry is medical field and concentrates on finding medical treatments for the patient's illness(es) though they MAY refer to counseling (psychology) for adjunct treatment, especially for things like help with coping skills, or solving relationship/family troubles that may be contributing to mental health instability. Psychology is non-medical (it's counseling and it started as "the study of the human mind" along with stuff like how people act and interact), it often (and particularly so in certain theories/forms - like Jung and DBT) does have roots in (or in cases like DBT even use the practices of other religions - like DBT has roots in Zen and uses a lot of its teachings and may even use its meditative practices depending on the group leader) - but even so, not all psychology is anti-Christian. To say that all mental health care is anti-christian, something christians shouldn't do/use, or pseudo-science is generally indicative of lack of full understanding of what mental health care is, what it involves and what its various practices really are along with what mental illness itself is - which is a dysfunction of the brain itself in ways observable on brain scans.

cow451 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 4:02:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: galadriel2 The problem with the whole 'mental health' system is that the system itself was set up and designed by people attempting to replace the Gospel as the healer of men's souls and spirits with man's ideas as the healer. As a result several things prove drastically wrong with the mental health world: 1) a false paradigm (worldview) is given to people in which they are encouraged to dwell - one without Christ, 2) false categories of thought are given to people to embrace as true - i.e. - a) the term mental illness itself which implies no accountability to God and no ability to deal with your own thoughts, feelings, motives, actions, etc., b) the diagnoses - bipolar i.e. - better to stick with God's categories - sinner, in Adam, in Christ, son of God, sin, created in the image of God, practicing sin as opposed to committing individual sins and having an active though not sovereignly ruling over you sinful nature (what a mouthful), 3) no real knowledge and wisdom about what is going on in the person since they have rejected Christ in whom all knowledge and wisdom is found (Col. ch. 2), 4) no real solutions because of all the former points, and 5) only a psuedo-science to draw empty support of their theories from - it isn't an inexact science psychologists and psychiatrists refer to in their practice - it is pseudo-science. I should add that a sixth problem and spin-off is a perversion of the legal system with the opinions of Christ rejecting elite replacing ordinary legal processes and procedures. The net result is that the mental health system is a colossal failure. God bless all, Galadriel2 It's unfortunate that you have the Sunday School version of the mental health system. One of the reasonss it's broken is the levels of ignorance and apathy that exist in the church.

MyCatSmokey2006 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (7/11/2008 9:36:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: galadriel2 The problem with the whole 'mental health' system is that the system itself was set up and designed by people attempting to replace the Gospel as the healer of men's souls and spirits with man's ideas as the healer. As a result several things prove drastically wrong with the mental health world: 1) a false paradigm (worldview) is given to people in which they are encouraged to dwell - one without Christ, 2) false categories of thought are given to people to embrace as true - i.e. - a) the term mental illness itself which implies no accountability to God and no ability to deal with your own thoughts, feelings, motives, actions, etc., b) the diagnoses - bipolar i.e. - better to stick with God's categories - sinner, in Adam, in Christ, son of God, sin, created in the image of God, practicing sin as opposed to committing individual sins and having an active though not sovereignly ruling over you sinful nature (what a mouthful), 3) no real knowledge and wisdom about what is going on in the person since they have rejected Christ in whom all knowledge and wisdom is found (Col. ch. 2), 4) no real solutions because of all the former points, and 5) only a psuedo-science to draw empty support of their theories from - it isn't an inexact science psychologists and psychiatrists refer to in their practice - it is pseudo-science. I should add that a sixth problem and spin-off is a perversion of the legal system with the opinions of Christ rejecting elite replacing ordinary legal processes and procedures. The net result is that the mental health system is a colossal failure. God bless all, Galadriel2 While there may be some problems with the mental health system, they're not as you described. I hope that you don't take this as a personal attack, but what you've posted is the same material that stigma against the mentally ill is made of. Mental illness is a medical illness, like heart disease or diabetes. It's a disease of the brain, which is a organ in the human body. Brain diseases such as bipolar disorder or schizophrenia often show up in a person exibiting strange behaviors because he or she is being bombarded by medically-proven chemical imbalances for which there are medications to help. Talk therapy is often used so the person can learn new coping strategies to deal with their illness better. While it would be ideal for all of them to see a Christian counselor and get Christian advice, most insurance programs won't pay for them, so those on Medicaid have only secular therapist to go to for therapy. I suggest that you educate yourself in the reality of mental illness. The National Alliance of Mental Illness (NAMI)website (www.nami.org) is a good place to start.

DenimDiva -> RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread (7/15/2008 8:25:39 PM)
The other night I was watching an old show that was done by a once well-known CCM artist. The topic of the show was depression. It was pretty bad. The only thing that I learned is that some Christians need to learn when to shut their mouths. [:'(]

MrsTracy72 -> Debate - One Stop Thread (7/19/2008 10:42:35 PM)
Ok, I am sitting here trying to put what I want to say in words that I can actually say. So here is my best shot. I have been told and almost convinced that because I am using a therapist and taking meds that I am not trusting in God. I say almost convinced because while I was trying to deal with my anxiety and depression, I was trying to figure out how to fix it if God wasn't answering my prayers that I had been praying for the past year or so, and following the advice of my doctor and using my therapist on a regular basis was "not putting my complete trust in God" I went off my meds so that I could just pray and believe that God was going to take care of me, and all I can say and will say is that things went terribly wrong and it wasn't a good result. I think that God gave those people and meds to me to save me. So I guess what I am going to say is this. Until you have been in that position. By that, I mean when you feel like you absolutely cannot go on anymore and there is no way out no matter what you do. And you have that achy feeling in your stomach that never seems to go away, the lump in your throat, that feeling like you are in a pit and there is no way up, AND you can feel the adreneline running through your body, you really have no right to tell people that they are not trusting in God enough, or that they are "dwelling" in the past, or they just need to snap out of it. So I hope I didn't offend anybody here. I usually try to not even read this thread, but for some reason, I did, and I just felt that I needed to say something.

cow451 -> RE: Debate - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 12:02:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrsTracy72 Ok, I am sitting here trying to put what I want to say in words that I can actually say. So here is my best shot. I have been told and almost convinced that because I am using a therapist and taking meds that I am not trusting in God. I say almost convinced because while I was trying to deal with my anxiety and depression, I was trying to figure out how to fix it if God wasn't answering my prayers that I had been praying for the past year or so, and following the advice of my doctor and using my therapist on a regular basis was "not putting my complete trust in God" I went off my meds so that I could just pray and believe that God was going to take care of me, and all I can say and will say is that things went terribly wrong and it wasn't a good result. I think that God gave those people and meds to me to save me. So I guess what I am going to say is this. Until you have been in that position. By that, I mean when you feel like you absolutely cannot go on anymore and there is no way out no matter what you do. And you have that achy feeling in your stomach that never seems to go away, the lump in your throat, that feeling like you are in a pit and there is no way up, AND you can feel the adreneline running through your body, you really have no right to tell people that they are not trusting in God enough, or that they are "dwelling" in the past, or they just need to snap out of it. So I hope I didn't offend anybody here. I usually try to not even read this thread, but for some reason, I did, and I just felt that I needed to say something. The only people being offended would be those that do not really care about your well-being. Those people do not deserve their place in your life. Your body is a temple and you are caring for it.

MrsTracy72 -> RE: Debate - One Stop Thread (7/21/2008 9:49:20 PM)
Thanks cow451. I usually don't say anything in this thread and I think I was venting. But it irritates me when people think they know more than doctors and other medical professionals who have actually been trained and have experience with all kinds of things of this nature. Some people think that the bible is a license to judge and tell others how to live their lives. That is why I don't much care for debate threads. You see alot of that in them.

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