RE: Is Christian counseling dangerous? (Full Version)

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womaninchrist -> RE: Is Christian counseling dangerous? (5/23/2007 11:14:43 PM)

Boy Buckeyenationrocks, that's sure a tough question. I'm gonna have to break it down into parts.

Is counseling bad? Sometimes. It depends on the competency of the counselor, the appropriateness of the counseling (including whether it's Biblical), is the type of counseling/therapy being provided honestly appropriate to the conditions at hand, are the patient and counselor a good fit, and several other variables.

Is Christian counseling bad? Again, sometimes. Worth mention - and I cannot possibly repeat this enough - that a counselor states that they're Christian or that the counsling is stated to be Christian is no guarantee that such is true. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've been advised by a Christian counselor to divorce my husband because I was the family's primary breadwinner - and that counselor was even on pastoral staff. Yikes. Worth mention, they're the ONLY counselor that's ever advised divorce - not even my secular counselors ever suggested divorce. With all that's stated in the Bible about divorce, I doubt the Lord would agree that it would be appropriate for me to divorce my husband simply because I earned the money - yet this was the ONLY reason said Christian counselor advised divorce.

Is secular counseling better? Sometimes. I can think of at least one therapy that Christians should avoid because it's rooted partially in Zen Buddhism (that'd be DBT). I can think of therapists who use (despite APA guidelines to the contrary) use therapy to push religious agendas - religion should ONLY be part of counseling if the patient so chooses and if the patient dose so choose, it should be the religion of the patient's choice. But ignoring DBT most therapies aren't really contraindicated by the Bible - generally it's going to come down to how it's being applied and what it's being applied to do. So with secular counseling you'll need to wade through to find a competent/professional counselor while keeping an eye open for the potential of unbiblical ideas or applications.

But all that said, there are two particular dangers for Christian counseling if you've got a history that involves mental illness - and it's that many such counselors will advise avoiding psychiatrists and psychiatry even when symptoms clearly indicate a need for such treatment and that many such counselors dabble in practices/theologies that operate roughly as "this illness is adequate evidence that the patient suffers from the following unrepentant sins and the following demonic possessions/oppressions". Neither outlook is really Biblical. There's nothing in the Bible to indicate that ALL mental illness is a spiritual problem (whether sin, demons or both) that belongs specifically to the sufferer (sickness exists because sin exists in the world, not necessarily in the sufferer - for example, PTSD is primarily an issue where the sufferer bears scars from someone else's sins). There's nothing in the bible to indicate that psychiatry is something Christians should totally avoid - there's definitely nothing that would indicate such without indicating Christians should avoid psychiatry while still seeing all other types of doctors and getting all other types of medications and treatments. Plus, if you out yourself as mentally ill to a Pastor, member of pastoral staff (or anyone else with Church ties) you may find yourself having to dodge abuse at the hands of Christians because of stereotypes and problem theologies that persist.

Personally, I've found Christian counseling to be most effective when I'm seeking specific assistance with a specific problem such as "what should I, as a Christian, do about __________?" or "what's a good thing to do about this particular recurrent temptation?" but often not helpful for more general stuff like down moods because of presumptions made that aren't always correct (like that the Joy of the Lord means we'll never be less than giddily happy).

Overall, it's a tricky road to navigate to seek counseling as a Christian - but it can be a necessary road to travel and the benefits can be great if you find a good counselor.



agapetos -> RE: Is Christian counseling dangerous? (5/25/2007 2:37:04 PM)

quote:

Eventually I had a full blown bipolar episode and destroyed my life and hurt several people in the process. After trying suicide three times a secular counselor got involved. He asked me questions from a checklist and diagnosed me as text book bipolar. I was put on meds and stabilized right away.
I'm wondering what you mean when you say 'full blown bipolar episose?Sometimes bipolar can be difficult to diagnose. And from my psychiatrist, bipolar 2 is even more difficult to diagnose.

As for your question about counselling ~ womaninchrist made a brilliant post.



DaveW -> RE: Is Christian counseling dangerous? (5/27/2007 1:28:33 PM)

Someone in another thread had a question on Nouthetic counseling. Our senior pastor is a certified trainer in this method. He could answer any question on it.

You can contact him thru his website www.therabbi.com



Hischild1994 -> RE: Is Christian counseling dangerous? (5/28/2007 4:41:03 PM)

Has anyone read The Bible Cure for Depression and Anxiety?

I just got it because I wanted to see what it was about. It's written by Don Colbert, M.D.

Any thoughts on it?



FoxInSox -> RE: Is Christian counseling dangerous? (5/28/2007 6:15:07 PM)

when i worked at a christian bookstore, i flipped thru the "bible cure" books. i remember being unimpressed although i can't remember why now.

michelle



buckeyenationrocks -> How responsible was I? (5/28/2007 9:03:28 PM)

I have been beating myself bloody over the stupid thing I did in mania to get fired. My therapist and psychiatrist tell me to stop because it wasn't really my fault, it was the bipolar depression. My brain was malfunctioning. I feel I should have been strong enough to overcome.

What do you think?



FoxInSox -> RE: How responsible was I? (5/28/2007 9:07:57 PM)

I hear you about beating yourself up. It's such an EASY TRAP.

I also agree with your tx team. Allow yourself to externalize the mania some; give it the credit it deserves. If you could have controlled it, it wouldn't be mania.

No matter how you process it, beating yourself up isn't going to resolve ANYTHING. It makes things worse. If your kid inherits your illness, and does something stupid at work in his/her first manic episode, will you verbal abuse them the way you are beating yourself up?

Talk to yourself as you would them.

mcihelle



Hischild1994 -> Mental Health Debate (5/28/2007 11:21:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: buckeyenationrocks

I have been beating myself bloody over the stupid thing I did in mania to get fired. My therapist and psychiatrist tell me to stop because it wasn't really my fault, it was the bipolar depression. My brain was malfunctioning. I feel I should have been strong enough to overcome.

What do you think?


Beating yourself up will get you no where.



Ps103 -> RE: Mental Health Debate (5/29/2007 9:18:59 AM)

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Hischild1994 -> Mental Health Debate (5/30/2007 8:25:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hischild1994

Has anyone read The Bible Cure for Depression and Anxiety?

I just got it because I wanted to see what it was about. It's written by Don Colbert, M.D.

Any thoughts on it?


quoting myself. [:D]

I have read about half of the booklet. It's not bad, but needs to be read with a grain of salt.

There is a lot of good advice in it and he does state several times to talk to your doctor.



brock36 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - paxil (6/4/2007 11:12:25 AM)

Good morning all! My wife is on this medication and we have been separated for some months, but recently she decided that she wanted to work on the marriage. About a week into it, her psychotherapist put her on Paxil and about two weeks into the medication she stated that the medicine has helped her realize that she does not want to be married. Should I take this as a grain of salt? Does the medication put you in la la land or does it relax you and put your worries away. I know it has different effect for different people, just a braod gauge of your feelings. Thanks and God bless!



FoxInSox -> RE: Mental Health Debate - paxil (6/4/2007 1:07:00 PM)

Paxil is an SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor). It causes more serotonin to remain floating around the synapses of your brain instead of being soaked back up by the nuerons. Serotonin is important in regulating mood, so this change will *hopefully* influence the individuals mood positively. It usually takes at least 2 weeks, and up to 6 weeks, to feel the theraputic benefits. Also, dosages should start out very low and build up, so someone might not feel a benefit at all for a while.

Brock, I can't speak for your wife's decision, given the impersonal nature of the internet, and not knowing her, etc. Are you guys seeking any counseling? What is a way you could have a mediation meeting?

I can say that Paxil does not ordinarily create psychosis (breaks with reality) or intoxication (like you might see with a anti-anxiety med like valium. Some people have strange reactions to it, but that would be rare.

Reading back over your post.l..I would describe the purposeful result of taking a med like paxil like this: SSRI's stop the noise. All the noise in my brain that makes me nuts, anxious, willing to do almost anything to make it stop, depressed, exhausted but insomnolent --- SSRI's make all that stop.

Also, if someone is in a place that requires the start of SSRI's, I generally would advise them NOT to make major life decisions becuase their thinking might be skewed -- not from the SSRI, but from the depression/anxiety. If she is experiencing depression/anxiety because of the troubles in your marriage, then I guess that's a different sitaution, but the depression/anxiety is always there, then that may be something to consider, at least for her. Which may or may not be something she wants to hear from you right now, unfortunately.



brock36 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - paxil (6/4/2007 7:11:26 PM)

Thanks for the advice. Yes, we have tried counseling at the church and even enrolled in a course, but she dropped out saying that she does not want to be married. She does not want to do the couples thing; she just wants to hang out. She says she has nothing to give in a relationship and she needs to build herself back up. She was depressed when her father passed some six years ago and she has some serious issues with her mother and brother. At one point, she blamed the sudden death of her father on her mother. Her brother is much older than her and was never around because he was taking care of his wife and child. I know that our marriage issues did not help at all, but everyone we have spoked to have told me that I was at the wrong place at the wrong time. She says she has been mad at God ever since her father passed. The issues that we have had have been your normal issues of a married couple who are just getting to know each other after the first year of marriage. No physical abuse or drugs involved, just your basic finances and why are you hanging out with these people and the like. Two very independent people learning to work together. I do not know what to do, so I am trusting in Him and getting out the way. My only issue is how far do I go, should I check in on her once a month or just wait for her to call? Take care and God bless!



sreno7 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - paxil (7/5/2007 4:34:13 AM)

I wanted to speak to the earlier posters who commented that Ritalin is for lazy parents, that it controls children.
Ritalin is a stimulant medication. Would you give a child coffee to control him? It works on the brain the same way caffeine does. Caffeine makes children hyper so why give a stimulant to a child to control him?
A child who truly has ADD or ADHD has an under stimulated frontal lobe. The stimulant medication works to correct that.
Not every child who acts out has ADD and if a child doesn't have it no pill will make a child behave better.
Even if a child has ADD it isn't a magic pill. It just gives the child a few seconds to stop and think before acting. It gives him a longer attention span so he can focus on the teacher instead of getting bored and throwing spitballs.
Any child who is exhibiting possible symptoms of ADD should get a full physical and neurological work up as many things can "look" like ADD. Even abused children sometimes exhibit similar symptoms.
A pediatrician in my city had a child refered to her for possible ADD, it turned out the child had a brain tumour, she eventually died.
Parents need to ask questions and not let teachers without medical degrees try to diagnose their child.
Teachers often assume any out of the ordinary behaviour is ADD when it could be allergies, problems at home, fetal alcohol or drug effects, abuse in the home or low blood sugar or lack of sleep.
Often children with mild autism are mistakenly diagnosed with ADD.
Ritalin saved my son and our family however he is a teenager now and has chosen to stop taking it.



Hischild1994 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - paxil (7/5/2007 8:16:41 AM)

I have met many parents who use ADD/ADHD meds as a form of "lazyness" (for lack of a better word).
However, I've also known other parents who've exhausted all other methods before turning to ADD/ADHD meds.



womaninchrist -> RE: Mental Health Debate - medicating (7/5/2007 11:10:07 PM)

I'd tend to say that with ADD/ADHD it's about the same as with other mental health conditions (though ADD/ADHD is one of the ones getting a whole ton of attention at the moment). Some people don't get treatment for any of a host of reasons (often variants on cost and stigma). Some people get treatment when they don't really need it (or maybe they do need treatment, just not the treatment they got for the illness they convinced someone to diagnose - it's not healthy or "normal" to WANT to have a mental health condition or to seek the medications...but I've seen people go well out of their way in a quest for a particular diagnosis they wanted and/or a certain med). Some people have an issue but because gp's now get to treat many mental health conditions (without having the necessary knowledge or training to really know what they're looking at or how to treat it) and/or because our health system so strongly pushes use of meds over therapy, many are getting the wrong treatment or aren't even diagnosed with the right issue(s). I've seen many who were on medications for various illnesses but needed therapy either in addition to meds or in place of them - and as much as medication often IS both necessary and appropriate, if an underlying condition that needs therapy isn't provided with the right therapy, all the meds in the world aren't going to fix things (like how I keep getting docs who want to medicate me into oblivion because that's cheaper and easier than the therapy for dealing with PTSD).



sreno7 -> RE: Mental Health Debate - medicating (7/7/2007 3:01:01 AM)

what do you mean by putting the child on meds out of laziness? A child with or without ADD? Do you think it is lazy for someone with clinical depression to take medication too? Or perhaps the bipolar folks shouldn't take meds when they are manic.
If a child has ADD why are parents criticized for treating it. My daughter needs glasses to focus my son needs meds to focus.
IF a child doesn't have ADD (and I would report the doctor who is giving medication for a disorder the child doesn't have) then the meds won't do the kid or parent any benefit.



Hischild1994 -> RE: Mental Health Debate (7/7/2007 10:27:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sreno7

what do you mean by putting the child on meds out of laziness? A child with or without ADD? Do you think it is lazy for someone with clinical depression to take medication too? Or perhaps the bipolar folks shouldn't take meds when they are manic.
If a child has ADD why are parents criticized for treating it. My daughter needs glasses to focus my son needs meds to focus.
IF a child doesn't have ADD (and I would report the doctor who is giving medication for a disorder the child doesn't have) then the meds won't do the kid or parent any benefit.


I'm not sure who you're referring too. If you're referring to me, please read my whole post.



agapetos -> RE: Mental Health Debate (7/7/2007 3:08:56 PM)

quote:

IF a child doesn't have ADD (and I would report the doctor who is giving medication for a disorder the child doesn't have) then the meds won't do the kid or parent any benefit.
It may not do the child or parent any good, except it will prove that the child doesn't have ADD/ADHD.

Doctors are only human. They get stressed too. Far too many times they will get patient after patient berating them for not giving them, or their child medications to suit what the parent thinks the child has. It's part of the reason so many antibiotics aren't as effective now was they once were.

If any of us demands from another repeatedly, there will come a breaking point and the doctor will give in and prescribe more than likely.

And who can blame them?

As for reporting the doctor ~ depends on the circumstances.



womaninchrist -> RE: Mental Health Debate (7/7/2007 3:13:56 PM)

Sticking specifically to ADD/ADHD...

Speaking based on personal experience in/around schools and what I've heard from others with similar experience is this: quite a few children (no one seems to know how many) are rather intentionally misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD because it's easier to put a kid on a pill than it is to take the time to correctly identify non-medical issues with behavior and attention span and to then apply the correct changes in things like discipline and one major factor is that kids are being expected to all immediately adapt to sit for long spells (while paying attention) and to all learn the same way. Another major factor is that kids aren't getting learning disabilities (or gifted status) quickly and correctly identified - if a child is bored or having trouble following, they often exhibit the same behaviors as are initial markers of ADD/ADHD. Also, if a child isn't getting adequate sleep (and based on the numbers of children I've seen grocery shopping at 8pm or later I'd guess that's quite a lot of kids) or proper nutrition, they'll also have difficulties that may present similarly to ADD/ADHD. But since it's easier to call it ADD/ADHD and put the kid on meds - and since if a teacher (who really doesn't have the skills to diagnose ADD/ADHD) or school counselor (who also tends not to have the skills/training to diagnose ADD/ADHD) identifies or suspects ADD/ADHD and the parent balks, they can threaten to involve CPS on the grounds of "neglect"... Throw in some parents who have unrealistic expectations for "normal" achievements and behaviors...

I see something similar with bipolar and adults. There are MANY things that can cause "mood swings" - but bipolar is about the only one treated with primarily pills and the one getting lots of "advertisement" (via ads for meds like Abilify and those "is it really depression" type quizzes that'd diagnose pretty much anyone alive with "possible bipolar"). Even if someone DOES have mood swings of a type and at a level that warrants attention from a mental health professional, odds are good that the problem is NOT bipolar. Yet between resistance to therapy, insurance companies that don't want to pay for therapy, and psychiatrists who'll play really fast and loose with diagnostic criteria a lot of people are being diagnosed with bipolar even when their symptoms don't match the criteria (esp. people who have borderline personality disorder) and they're stuck wondering why they're taking all their pills and not getting better.

Whether speaking in terms of children or adults or whatever illness(es), for psychiatric treatment to be HELPFUL, the diganosis needs to be both correct AND complete. If a person is diagnosed with something they don't really have, the treatment isn't going to be helpful (like if someone's diagnosed with bipolar but they really have borderline personality disorder or they're diagnosed with ADHD when they really are bored to tears or not getting adequate sleep). If only one of a patient's multiple problems is diagnosed and treated, leaving their other problems undiagnosed and untreated is generally going to leave them suffering and unstable (like how docs want to treat my bipolar but not my PTSD). It is of utmost importance when seeking psychiatric care that you see someone of true competence and professionalism who also has impeccable ethics (which might mean shuffling through quite a few psychiatrists before you find a good one). And as much as I'll personally and publicly complain about the competence, professionalism and ethics issues that plague many psychiatrists, you do NOT want your gp treating mental health matters - gp's do not have the necessary knowledge, skills or training to know what they're really looking at or how to treat it and quite often end up misdiagnosing or misapplying treatments.



MyCatSmokey2006 -> RE: Mental Health Debate (7/7/2007 10:38:57 PM)

I agree with womaninchrist and other previous posters and I would also add...

Find a psychiatrist who will listen to you when you tell him or her that the medication isn't working or you feel that you or your child(ren) have been misdiagnosed. I've had a psychiatrist that wouldn't listen to me when I told him that the Lexapro was causing suicidal thoughts. He kept increasing the dosage, which in turn increased the thoughts, until I actually attempted suicide. It took a few hospitalizations before I could get a psychiatrist who would review my medication history and try the Wellbutrin, which I'm still taking. My current psychiatrist has me on Wellbutrin XL and I haven't been in the hospital for over three years now, praise God!



sreno7 -> RE: Mental Health Debate (7/8/2007 3:37:03 AM)

I agree that maybe some doctors give the meds because the parents push for it, but for all the things suggested lack of sleep, learning disabilities people seem to assume there is a magic medication that will control children.
There is no such pill. My son has severe ADD and all the meds do is help him control his own behaviour by being calmer and having a chance to stop and think. Lazy parents??? What does medication do for that? No medication is sending kids to bed, stopping them from beating their sibs or sitting a shopping cart. Unless there is wonder drug I don't know of, parents still need to parent meds or no.
I do think that parents have to learn to advocate and those parents that don't have the skills may end up putting their kids on a medication that doesn't work due to pressure from those around them/



Hischild1994 -> RE: Mental Health Debate (7/8/2007 2:40:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sreno7

I agree that maybe some doctors give the meds because the parents push for it, but for all the things suggested lack of sleep, learning disabilities people seem to assume there is a magic medication that will control children.
There is no such pill. My son has severe ADD and all the meds do is help him control his own behaviour by being calmer and having a chance to stop and think. Lazy parents??? What does medication do for that? No medication is sending kids to bed, stopping them from beating their sibs or sitting a shopping cart. Unless there is wonder drug I don't know of, parents still need to parent meds or no.
I do think that parents have to learn to advocate and those parents that don't have the skills may end up putting their kids on a medication that doesn't work due to pressure from those around them/


Unfortunately, there are parents who will put their child on meds that they know will make them sleepy.

Most parents don't do this. However, some do.



Hischild1994 -> RE: Mental Health Debate (7/8/2007 5:58:37 PM)

This post was originally made by terryjohn in the thread Suicide (after repenting). I really didn't want to take that thread off topic, so I told him or her that I would respond over here.

I'll post my answers in a different color to help avoid confusion.

This is the post that terryjohn made:

This man whether he be sane or mental deranged, has committed murder and his suicide is another matter. There is no excuse in heaven and hell for his doing what he did. If a man should find himself in such a terrible marriage/job there is always the door to go through.

I agree to an extent. I do not know everything that was going on in this wrestler's mind. He may not have been able to think clearly enough to rationalize a way out.

To be suicidal is not a worthy option as it is normally seen as a way to get back at those who have in some way hurt you.

It may be seen that way, but that is seldom the case. Also, to be suicidal is very painful.

In the end it only confirms your enemies impression that you were weak and mentally unstable.

In the past, when I attempted suicide, I didn't care what my enemies thought of me. And if you think that anyone dealing with mental illness is weak- you are way off track! That's like saying someone dealing with cancer is weak.

No if a man should think his life is not worth living he should in stead be thinking of making his life a living sacrifice. This would include giving up living for himself and pour his life out in the work of God preaching and helping those less advantaged than himself. I don't know if it is true but isn't suicide more popular amongst the rich? I mean are there more suicides in the US than there are in Africa? In any case, if a man should foolishly want to die he should buy a ticket to Iran and preach the gospel then he would be admired, honoured and respected by even the saints.

If a person commits suicide what difference does it make how they do it? God will still know the truth. Besides, you're expecting a person with an untreated mental illness to think in a rational way. This often can't be done until the illness is treated. It's like telling a person who is suffering from a back injury to lift 50 lb objects or expecting a person with a broken leg to win a marathon. It's next to impossible.
If I throw you a 4" thick book and you catch it, it's not going to hurt you. However, if I do it and you have two broken wrists, it will be next to impossible for you to catch and it will probably hurt you.
Everyday life throws things at us, some are able to catch them and move on, other's can't catch them and are often hurt by them.

Also, mental illness and suicide are not for the rich. Where did you get you get that idea?
Mental illness knows no gender, age, race, socio-economical boundaries. It can hit anyone..... even good, strong Christians.
If mental illness and/or suicidal thoughts are for the rich- then I'd like my keys to my mansion and my BMW now please. [;)]


In the end we can only be stunned into silence with regard to his own salvation after his making so many bad discissions.

I never met this man and I never even heard of him until this tragic event so I have no clue at all about his salvation.

Nevertheless, how can the gospel help such people from getting into this sate of affairs in the first place?

Study up on mental illness. Reach out to those who you know may be mentally ill. ADD/ADHD, bipolar, depression and a host of other illnesses are mental illness. Treat those you know with mental illnesses like you would treat another sick friend. Talk to them, pray with or for them, love them.

If you know someone who is suicidal- do whatever it takes to stop them, even if that means involving the police.

edited for clarification.



sreno7 -> RE: Mental Health Debate (7/8/2007 6:17:20 PM)

well ADD meds certainly don't make anyone sleepy, they are a stimulant like caffeine.
I have heard of parents giving babies and small children cold medicine to make them sleepy so it is easier for them to go out in the evening. There have been stories in my community where parents give their babies Dimetapp to make them go to sleep, leave a bunch of kids of different ages in one home (like an apartment building or complex) and then the parents go drinking in another home.
ADD meds won't do that, they actually cause insomnia.



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