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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 7/31/2005 10:49:52 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
My understanding is that after death comes the glorification of those found in Christ. Isn't this really what we are all promised? However God chooses to accomplish making us in reality what we are now promised is called glorification. We are now positionaly righteous in that Christ's sacrifice covers us but after our glorification we will be practically righteous. Catholic theology calls this process purgatory. I don't know what happens per se after we die, but I am expecting glorification. To be what I now only see in faith--perfect in body, mind and spirit.
kmangle,
That is a nice way of wording it; after death, we still need glorification. While Protestant theology might not call it "purgatorial", I believe that the idea is indeed easily reasoned from the Scriptures.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2005 4:13:36 AM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
What one cannot find in Scripture is the idea that everything is to be found in Scripture. When can we expect from honesty from Protestantism?
Just two verses - 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 -- should suffice to confirm that everything that we need for life and godliness is to be found in Scripture, which is theopneustos (God-breathed), unlike the proclamations from the Vatican. Christ confirmed this in Matthew 4:4. That is enough for us.
Dear Ezra,
I will agree with you that the necessary minimum can be found in Scripture alone. That does not mean that that is all there is.
Corn, beans, and squash will sustain life. Your diet is your business.
No one is complete without Scripture. That does not mean that Scripture alone makes one complete.
Matthew 16:19.
On the Feast of St. Alphonus Ligouri
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2005 11:31:42 AM
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kmangel
Posts: 478
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
My understanding is that after death comes the glorification of those found in Christ. Isn't this really what we are all promised? However God chooses to accomplish making us in reality what we are now promised is called glorification. We are now positionaly righteous in that Christ's sacrifice covers us but after our glorification we will be practically righteous. Catholic theology calls this process purgatory. I don't know what happens per se after we die, but I am expecting glorification. To be what I now only see in faith--perfect in body, mind and spirit.
kmangle,
That is a nice way of wording it; after death, we still need glorification. While Protestant theology might not call it "purgatorial", I believe that the idea is indeed easily reasoned from the Scriptures.
I think the problem arises when we try to fathom how God will accomplish glorification in us. People add their own ideas to how God is going to do what only He knows. That's where indulgences come in and suffering in purgatory or whatever else our idea of purgatory brings with it. We let our powers of reasoning get the better of us. "If I was God, this is what I would do." Oh, we may think we've found scriptures to back our position, but we are not privy nor never will be privy to all He can and will do. What happens to us during our glorification is for Him to know and for us to find out. We are promised to be glorified and we are to accept this truth in faith. I personally don't have any idea what glorification will entail. I don't need to know. Does it really matter to know how God will do what He will do? He will do it (glorify us) and that is all we need to know.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2005 12:00:58 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
My understanding is that after death comes the glorification of those found in Christ. Isn't this really what we are all promised? However God chooses to accomplish making us in reality what we are now promised is called glorification. We are now positionaly righteous in that Christ's sacrifice covers us but after our glorification we will be practically righteous. Catholic theology calls this process purgatory. I don't know what happens per se after we die, but I am expecting glorification. To be what I now only see in faith--perfect in body, mind and spirit.
kmangle,
That is a nice way of wording it; after death, we still need glorification. While Protestant theology might not call it "purgatorial", I believe that the idea is indeed easily reasoned from the Scriptures.
I think the problem arises when we try to fathom how God will accomplish glorification in us. People add their own ideas to how God is going to do what only He knows. That's where indulgences come in and suffering in purgatory or whatever else our idea of purgatory brings with it. We let our powers of reasoning get the better of us. "If I was God, this is what I would do." Oh, we may think we've found scriptures to back our position, but we are not privy nor never will be privy to all He can and will do. What happens to us during our glorification is for Him to know and for us to find out. We are promised to be glorified and we are to accept this truth in faith. I personally don't have any idea what glorification will entail. I don't need to know. Does it really matter to know how God will do what He will do? He will do it (glorify us) and that is all we need to know.
Dear kmangel,
It is certainly true that much opinion is passed off as fact. The binding Catholic teaching on Purgatory is actually very minimal.
1. Some form of purification exists.
2. Those undergoing it can be helped by the prayers of the faithful.
On the Feast of St. Alphonus Ligouri
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2005 12:28:50 PM
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milesjesu
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quote:
We are now positionaly righteous in that Christ's sacrifice covers us but after our glorification we will be practically righteous. Catholic theology calls this process purgatory. I don't know what happens per se after we die, but I am expecting glorification. To be what I now only see in faith--perfect in body, mind and spirit.
This is the crux of the divergance concerning purgatory. What is done with imperfect love that causes us to sin? What is done with the defect in our soul that allows us to sin?
Some believe that this purging will happen immediately, instantaneously with no consequence after death on the way to heaven. Others believe that we must be purged through fire and "will suffer loss" on the way to heaven. Which is more scriptural?
Peace,
MilesJesu
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2005 12:35:08 PM
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milesjesu
Posts: 78
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Ezra,
Greetings.
quote:
Just two verses - 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 -- should suffice to confirm that everything that we need for life and godliness is to be found in Scripture, which is theopneustos (God-breathed), unlike the proclamations from the Vatican.
2 Tim 3:16-17 "16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Just for clarification, where does it say the bible is the sole source of revelation? Yes, scripture is inspired by God (God-breathed). Yes, scripture is PROFITABLE for teaching, reproof, correction and training. I missed the part where it says that scripture is to be used as the SOLE rule of faith. Can you help me?
In reference to Acts 8:30-31 "30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?"
Can you help me understand how we are supposed to make the jump from "some one guides me" to scripture alone?
Thanks,
Peace,
MilesJesu
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2005 5:57:43 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: milesjesu
Just for clarification, where does it say the bible is the sole source of revelation?
Study Romans 16:25-27 which reveals that Paul's Gospel and the Scriptures of the prophets are the sole source of revelation. In 2 Pet. 1:15-21, we again have the Gospel through the apostles and the Scriptures of the prophets as the sole source of revelation. Then in 2 Pet. 3:15,16 we have Peter placing ALL of Paul's espistles alongside the Scriptures of the prophets (the OT). There are numerous others Scriptures which establish this truth, for those who wish to hear it. 2 Tim.3:16,17 speaks of the entire Word of God.
quote:
Can you help me understand how we are supposed to make the jump from "some one guides me" to scripture alone?
Absolutely. "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; AND ARE BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS [NT & OT Scriptures], Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone... And [Christ] gave some apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints..." (Eph. 2:19,20; 4:11-13).
It's really quite simple. Scripture is the authoritative and inerrant Word of God. God provided apostles and prophets until the entire Bible was completed, and He now provides evangelists, pastors, and teachers to "guide" the lambs and the sheep into the truths found in Scripture. The "guides" bring no "new" revelation but expound and exegete what is already revealed.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2005 6:00:16 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
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quote:
God provided apostles and prophets until the entire Bible was completed
Can you prove that from scripture? They Bible wasn't officialy confirmed until 397 at the Council of Carthage. Didn't the Church have any teachers during that time? Who were they?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2005 6:02:37 PM
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ToolmanUF
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Also, you mention that St. Peter placed all of St. Paul's epistles next to the Scriptures of the Prophets. If so, then why aren't all of St. Paul's epistles in the Bible? There were many more that didn't make the final canon of the Scriptures. Also, who was it who determined which epistles were to be placed in the canon?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2005 6:08:23 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1784
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
quote:
God provided apostles and prophets until the entire Bible was completed
Can you prove that from scripture?
I certainly can, but we're getting way off topic. Can you prove from Scripture that Christ taught the dogma of purgatory? That's more to the point.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/1/2005 7:01:33 PM
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ToolmanUF
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I believe that St. Paul did, but why does it matter if I do? You simply don't interpret the scriptures in the same way that I do, so we will never settle the issues.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/3/2006 1:49:30 PM
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WesP
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In reading through this discussion, venial and mortal sins are mentioned several times. Can someone supply a list of each? My bible does not seem to have a way for me to differentiate. For example, the Ten Commandments include the statement: Thou shalt not lie. They do not say only tell small lies; hence, I do not understand what a "white lie" is or how it is different from a really bad (mortal sin) lie.
Also, a failure to follow RCC doctrine does not preclude me from understanding the Word of God. As a Christian, I am a member of Christ's priesthood, and I need seek direction from no man to ask forgiveness for my sins. I pray, and the Lord hears me. I beg forgiveness, and He cleanses me. Right here; right now.
The reason that I mention the things above is because they are the qualifiers to substantiate Purgatory. The only unforgiveable sin related thus far is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. With the exception of that transgression, I believe that one sin is as bad as another. That being the case, Jesus has me covered without a trip to something that no one has clearly defined as a place, a state of being, or anything else exact. I am responsible for me, and I do what I do. I don't think God will change His mind about me in the slightest after I die. It will be too late for me to undo anything, so another person praying to further my cause will mean nothing.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/3/2006 4:48:39 PM
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unworthyseraphim
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Dear Ezra,
Just sticking my head in the door, since those of my faith don't believe in Purgatory, but I noticed you said, "AND ARE BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS [NT & OT Scriptures], "
The verse doesn't say scriptures...you are just interpreting the passage to say that. Its talking about people...the Apostles and Prophets. In Revelation the temple is shown with 12 foundantions each one named for an apostle...but most Apostles didn't leave a word of Scripture. Nor did Jesus Christ our Lord...yet He is the Chief Cornerstone.
I'm sorry but making this verse to say "scripture" when its talking about persons doesn't fly. To me that not substantially different that what the JWs do in their "interpretation" of the Gospel of John to make it read like the Holy Spirit is not a Person, or to deny the Divinity of Jesus.
The Church is people not a publication. The books of the Bible have authority as revelation because those wrote them or had them written were by virtue of their particular depth and nature of relationship with God authoritative. Their life in God is what sets their writings apart. And it is them in their person...like lively stones as we are called to be that are built up into the Temple of God. To leave us all lively stones but suddenly make the Prophets and Apostles who are of the same Body suddenly not be men but to be their writings instead is wrench the scriptures into some strange new track.
I can see why you see them that way and why you would want to see them that way...but that little enbracketed tag makes them say something they do not necessarily say.
now back to purgatory I guess.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/3/2006 7:42:04 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
In reading through this discussion, venial and mortal sins are mentioned several times. Can someone supply a list of each? My bible does not seem to have a way for me to differentiate. For example, the Ten Commandments include the statement: Thou shalt not lie. They do not say only tell small lies; hence, I do not understand what a "white lie" is or how it is different from a really bad (mortal sin) lie.
Also, a failure to follow RCC doctrine does not preclude me from understanding the Word of God. As a Christian, I am a member of Christ's priesthood, and I need seek direction from no man to ask forgiveness for my sins. I pray, and the Lord hears me. I beg forgiveness, and He cleanses me. Right here; right now.
The reason that I mention the things above is because they are the qualifiers to substantiate Purgatory. The only unforgiveable sin related thus far is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. With the exception of that transgression, I believe that one sin is as bad as another. That being the case, Jesus has me covered without a trip to something that no one has clearly defined as a place, a state of being, or anything else exact. I am responsible for me, and I do what I do. I don't think God will change His mind about me in the slightest after I die. It will be too late for me to undo anything, so another person praying to further my cause will mean nothing.
Dear Wes,
I don't know that anyone has complied a list of all sins, mortal and venial.
Three conditions must be met in order for a sin to be considered a mortal one. It must be a grave matter. One must know it is a grave matter, and one must, with full knowledge and consent of the will, commit the sin. It would seem you misunderstand Purgatory. Here is a link if you wish more information. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
On the Feast of St. Genevieve
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/3/2006 7:44:55 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
Just sticking my head in the door, since those of my faith don't believe in Purgatory,
Dear UWS,
I am always delighted to have you stick your head in the door and say something.
I have a question, why do the Orthodox pray for the dead?
If there are any Episcopalians out there, why do you pray for the dead as well?
On the Feast of St. Genevieve
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/4/2006 10:36:37 AM
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unworthyseraphim
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That is an involved question. God helping me I'll do what I can by way of answer.
The basic reason is that Christ is risen, and the power of death trampled down. In Him we are not seperated from one an other and we pray, "Lord have mercy" for all living and reposed, that the Lord may show forth His mercy according to His will upon those who are numbered among His Kingdom. They pray for us, and we for them. Our prayerful concern one for another is not abrogated by the grave.
More specifically it has to do with the passage of the soul after death. There are certain times in the days after death when our prayers are especially helpful. And they generally helpful in supplying the grace through the Church to cover unconfessed sin. We believe that that the soul after death for a period of 40 days visits upon the earth those people and places precious to her, and that the soul is visits both the estates of the blessed and the condemned as well has spending time in worship and adoration before a determination is made on how the reposed soul will await the Great Judgement, either in a foretaste of heaven or a foretaste of hell depending upon the propensity of the soul in this life to serve God or to serve vanity. Final decision though is not made until the Great Judgement, which is not yet. And until then even those who may expect hell as their portion are not beyond the reach of the mercying prayers of the Chruch. Some may be plucked out now and set among the blessed and some preserved at the day of Judgement.
And those who are blessed benefit from our prayers by receiving greater grace to enter more deeply into the joy and fellowship of the Lord.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/4/2006 11:17:01 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
...More specifically it has to do with the passage of the soul after death. There are certain times in the days after death when our prayers are especially helpful. And they generally helpful in supplying the grace through the Church to cover unconfessed sin. We believe that that the soul after death for a period of 40 days visits upon the earth those people and places precious to her, and that the soul is visits both the estates of the blessed and the condemned as well has spending time in worship and adoration before a determination is made on how the reposed soul will await the Great Judgement, either in a foretaste of heaven or a foretaste of hell depending upon the propensity of the soul in this life to serve God or to serve vanity. Final decision though is not made until the Great Judgement, which is not yet. And until then even those who may expect hell as their portion are not beyond the reach of the mercying prayers of the Chruch. Some may be plucked out now and set among the blessed and some preserved at the day of Judgement.
And those who are blessed benefit from our prayers by receiving greater grace to enter more deeply into the joy and fellowship of the Lord.
UWS,
Would you have any Scripture for this?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/4/2006 3:02:35 PM
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unworthyseraphim
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From: Mississippi
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Dear RCJames,
There is for some of it, but I can't recall it off the top of my head. The bulk of it though is not tied to any particular scripture reference that I know of. There may be some, I just don't know them. I think a couple of related references might be from the Deuterocanonicals, some of it may be derived via first centry Judaism that came into the Church then...but again I don't know off the top of my head.
However the content of my earlier post is attested by the common experience of the Saints to whom it has been granted to see such things. As such this belief among the Orthodox though very common and pretty much universally held, is not dogmatic belief...a belief critical to salvation, like the Diety of Christ or the Holy Trinity.
We also know these things are true because of the Liturgical life of the Church which references and addresses many of these points in various of her services. The worship of the Church is true and after the Scriptures, the Liturgy and worship of the Church is the most authoritative source of our theology and belief, for this Liturgy and worship is precisely the life of the Spirit.
I'll dig around and see what I can find.
In the interim here are a couple of sites that explore the Orthodox understanding more deeply. From what I can see they contain many scripture references:
http://www.orthodox.net/articles/life-after-death-john-maximovitch.html#n2
http://www.protomartyr.org/prayer.html
http://orthodoxyinamerica.org/about_orthodoxy.html
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/spiritual_world_e.htm#_Prayer_For_The
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/life_after_death.htm
http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/afterdeath.htm
Well that should be more than enough to keep you intrigued or give you indigestion. But I hope it helps.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/23/2006 8:26:21 AM
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TreysNana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Purgatory is known from Tradition, and has been shown to be perfectly consistent with Scripture. The Vatican has never claimed otherwise.
Ah, tradition. The tradition of the Jews was consistent with the Law (OT). Yet Jesus came to provide relief from the burden of the Mishnah (see Matt. 11:28-29).
Blessings!
Kathy
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10 So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/23/2006 8:44:40 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TreysNana
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Purgatory is known from Tradition, and has been shown to be perfectly consistent with Scripture. The Vatican has never claimed otherwise.
Ah, tradition. The tradition of the Jews was consistent with the Law (OT). Yet Jesus came to provide relief from the burden of the Mishnah (see Matt. 11:28-29).
Blessings!
Kathy
Dear TreysNana,
I find neither Tradition nor Purgatory burdensome. In fact, they are both liberating.
On the Feast of St. Barnard
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/23/2006 1:27:18 PM
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TreysNana
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Joined: 12/25/2005
From: Illinois, just across the river from St. Louis
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear TreysNana,
I find neither Tradition nor Purgatory burdensome. In fact, they are both liberating.
On the Feast of St. Barnard
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
I have no doubt that there were Jews who didn't find the Mishnah burdensome. That doesn't alter the fact that tradition may have been burdensome to some nor the fact that tradition was elevated to the same standing as the Law.
Blessings!
Kathy
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10 So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/23/2006 1:35:02 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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Dear Treysnana,
Being a follower of Christ is burdensome. The cross we carry after Him isn't exactly light, except in conparison to His.
Some people who deny Tradition have one anyway, and make no effective distinction between their interpretation of Scripture
and Scripture itself. Catholics are honest in saying the Purgatory is a part of Tradition, and, properly understood, is perfectly
consistent with it.
On the Feast of St. Barnard
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/23/2006 6:54:33 PM
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TreysNana
Posts: 7
Joined: 12/25/2005
From: Illinois, just across the river from St. Louis
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Some people who deny Tradition have one anyway, and make no effective distinction between their interpretation of Scripture and Scripture itself.
Sadly, that's all too true.  However, that's hardly compelling justification for elevating tradition to the level of the Word.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10 So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
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