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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/25/2008 2:04:28 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
Really, you don't realize that Catholic doctrine is that there is one Church?
I do agree with that! There is one Church. It's not RC though, and not just a concept or institution,i disagree with DH on this, but Body of Believers.
It doesnt say in the Bible that Bride of Christ without spot or wrinkle is " RC + a bunch of separated brethren."
It's clear from the current pope that RC is clueless as to what constitutes the Church of Jesus Christ. Nor can they discern from the very words of Christ Himself the "invisible" Church which surrounded most of His teaching.
RC holds itself to be the only, the unique and true Church of Jesus Christ. She declares all other churches heretical, schismatical, false; and their followers out of the fold, cut off from the living Christ, and condemned to the everlasting fire of hell. RC has changed some of its more gross ridiculous "infallible" rhetoric over the years; but, basically still adheres in principle to the above.
All this, when the simple fact is that Christ came, in part, to establish a Church and there remains some churches who do a better job of more closely adhering to His divine Gospel. As long, however, as the different churches believe and practise what is essential to salvation both with regard to doctrine and to Christian life, they, although not strictly in communion with one another, are branches of the same tree, off-shoots of the same mother-root, vines of the same vineyard, rivers from the same source, rays of the same sun Christ the Lord.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/25/2008 6:34:17 PM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
and condemned to the everlasting fire of hell.
I wish you would take a little more time and make sure your posts were truthful.  The Catholic Church does not condemned non-catholics to hell.
There is a BIG thread in the Salvation folder about this already.
< Message edited by Catholicandloveit -- 6/25/2008 6:42:45 PM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/26/2008 4:33:40 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
and condemned to the everlasting fire of hell.
I wish you would take a little more time and make sure your posts were truthful. The Catholic Church does not condemned non-catholics to hell.
There is a BIG thread in the Salvation folder about this already.
Then it best change its doctrine on papal infallibility.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/26/2008 9:24:01 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
Actually the Church has many different regions if you will and
the Catholic Church embraces both the spiritual and physical/here-and-now concepts.
Which one of those concepts include anything or anybody else in the Church, besides Catholics?
(By "Church" i mean the one and only Christ's Church, the Bride of Christ , of course)
quote:
So maybe its fair then to say - what is "Church" as referred to especially by Paul? What does this really mean?
Verse, dear DH. Give me the verse or chapter you have in mind and i'll gladly give you my position.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/30/2008 11:40:41 AM
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Zhi
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I was reading Acts last night, and found this interesting.
Acts 10:25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."
"How to Greet the Pope", from e-How.com (http://www.ehow.com/how_11183_greet-pope.html)
Step1 Dress appropriately, regardless of your views on dress codes and personal liberty.
Step2 Choose a dark suit for a private or semiprivate audience with the pope, if you're a man.
Step3 Select a dress that covers your shoulders and reaches near your knees, if you're a woman. Dress pants are acceptable these days, but were not in earlier times.
Step4 Addressing the pope by letter, one writes to His Holiness, the Pope or His Holiness Pope __________, Vatican City, 00817 Rome, Italy.
Step5 Use the following salutation: Your Holiness or Most Holy Father.
Step6 Say "Your Holiness" or "Most Holy Father" when speaking directly to the pontiff, no matter what your religious affiliation.
Step7 Listen to the pope's assistants for instructions on where to stand in the audience room.
Step8 Make a low bow, or go down on one knee, when being presented to the pontiff. Once again, disregard your religious affiliation.
Step9 Take the pope's right hand and kiss his ring if you're a Catholic.
Step10 Take and shake the pope's right hand if you're not a Catholic.
If the Pope is the successor of Peter, why does the Pope insist on people kneeling before him, which is the exact opposite of what Peter insisted on? What is the thinking behind the idea that one should kneel before the Pope, when it was inappropriate to kneel before Peter himself?
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/30/2008 12:23:14 PM
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Ps103
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quote:
http://www.ehow.com/how_11183_greet-pope.html
The above is an etiquette column, Zhi.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 6/30/2008 12:39:33 PM
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Zhi
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I'm aware of that, but the question has to do with appropriateness of action. If the Catholic response is that the etiquette column is incorrect and it is not appropriate to kneel before the Pope, that's fine.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/1/2008 5:56:09 AM
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101
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If you really would like to understand how the pope thing came about and why it is still on going, read; " The History of the church in plain language" by Bruce L. Shelley. I have read it 3 times and I still find it facinating! But I caution you, it is a long book.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/1/2008 5:57:28 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
I'm aware of that, but the question has to do with appropriateness of action. If the Catholic response is that the etiquette column is incorrect and it is not appropriate to kneel before the Pope, that's fine. How would you greet the Queen of England, should you ever have the occasion to do so...? Slap her in the middle of her back and high-five her?
I guess we shouldn't hold our breath at in anticipation of your invitation from her majesty...
This is not worship, it is recognizing the office and who occupies it. To not follow the established etiquette is to be vulgar (common) if one so chooses to be. The Queen has no authority over me, but I recognize that this woman has given her life in service to her country and her people, and if I were to ever have an audience with her, I would choose to observe the established customs and etiquettes, not only for her, but out of respect for the wonderful people of the United Kingdom, who established them. If one were to stop and think about that for a minute, then maybe it would be easier to comprehend and practice the recommended etiquette.
I am old enough to remember a day when we did and behaved as we were supposed to, according to things like rules of etiquette. In the last several years, a lot of that has gone out the window - tossed by a generation of folks who are sure that they themselves are all individually the most special people on the planet, and owe no courtesies to anyone.
I suppose that discussion belongs in the "raising kids" section.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 7/1/2008 6:04:44 AM >
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...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/1/2008 6:48:35 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Verse, dear DH. Give me the verse or chapter you have in mind and i'll gladly give you my position. Let's start with Romans 11 (grafting olive branches) and move to through it to chapter 12.
Apparently, we are supposed to heed our roots, as they support us, and not the other way around. While Paul may be speaking of Judaism and Israel, I believe it is not a tremendous stretch to suggest that this is instruction against the practice of schism the way it currently occurs on a daily basis within some parts of Christendom. Christianity is the second chapter to Judaism, recognizing the realization of God's promise to send a Redeemer and to call His people to a new relationship with Him.
I think some in Christendom lack a respect and appreciation of their roots, to the detriment of their practice of faith - almost as if Jesus had been resurrected in 1517.
That's why I participate here - to offer an opinion against this notion. Jesus was resurrected in the first century and the Bible was written in Greek and Hebrew, not Middle English. I think too many people conveniently dismiss the authority of that providence, as this is how they were trained and raised in a faith that has no such historical ties and no such providence, by preachers who realize this, and would like to keep their individual pews in their individual Churches filled.
This thought proceeds to a notion that authority lies within Church, and Scripture is a tool complied by her to assist with the mission with which she has been charged - by Jesus, at Pentecost, through the Apostles, with the Holy Spirit - given them to strengthen them, inspire them, guide them, and to be passed on to their followers by the laying on of hands. We are asked to participate with God in a personal relationship fostered, nurtured and supported by our participation in Church. We were not individually commissioned, nor authorized or deputized, to discern and establish our own version of our own personal faith.
Luke 6:39-40 - "And he told them a parable, "Can a blind person guide a blind person? Will not both fall into a pit? No disciple is superior to the teacher; but when fully trained, every disciple will be like his teacher." - I believe the use of "disciple" here, as opposed to "follower" is of the utmost significance, as are many of the finer points of the specific language used in Scriptures. "Disciple" describes an authority of the teacher that "follower" lacks.
I see this authority being mostly absent in some parts of Christendom, which I compare to a social club that meets on Sunday mornings to see a show and to chat it up with coffee and doughnuts afterwards. Listening to the pastor may simply amount to checking notes as to where he agrees with me and where he doesn't, but no real authority to instruct and discern rests with the Church. It is up to self to discern, and it is assumed and presumed that the Holy Spirit is automatically guiding and shaping the effort of self-discernment in each and every individual who has a go at it.
How do we know? How can we test? If two disagree in their efforts of sole discernment, who is the arbiter?
Catholics have a completely different view of Church than Protestants, in my view. I am waiting for someone to explain the Protestant view, and this thread is to discuss the specific aspects of who gives voice to the authority that is Church, as Protestants understand Church. It seems to me to be pretty clear after 4800+ posts where the Catholics stand on the concept of "Church" and its leadership and authority.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 7/1/2008 7:01:55 AM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/1/2008 9:13:49 AM
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Zhi
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quote:
This is not worship, it is recognizing the office and who occupies it. To not follow the established etiquette is to be vulgar (common) if one so chooses to be.
Let's take a hard look at the office in question, though.
The office is, according to you, that of Bishop of Rome, in the specific apostolic succession of Peter.
Therefore if the original occupant of the office specifically said, as I have pointed out, that kneeling before the holder of that office is inappropriate behavior, how is it now appropriate behavior to kneel before the holder of that office?
This is specifically why we do not kneel before the office of President, or call him "Your Majesty"... because the original holder of the office, George Washington, specifically instructed that to do so would be inappropriate. Instead, the appropriate gesture of honor of that office, as established by the first holder thereof, is a firm handshake and calling him "Mr. President".
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/1/2008 3:30:51 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Therefore if the original occupant of the office specifically said, as I have pointed out, that kneeling before the holder of that office is inappropriate behavior, how is it now appropriate behavior to kneel before the holder of that office? What was inappropriate in Acts was the superstition and lack of faith that drove Cornelius to his action. This same superstition is exampled in the following from Acts 14:
When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in Lycaonian, "The gods have come down to us in human form." They called Barnabas "Zeus" and Paul "Hermes," because he was the chief speaker. And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was at the entrance to the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, for he together with the people intended to offer sacrifice. The apostles Barnabas and Paul tore their garments when they heard this and rushed out into the crowd, shouting, "Men, why are you doing this? We are of the same nature as you, human beings. We proclaim to you good news that you should turn from these idols to the living God, 'who made heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them.'"
Same song, 2nd verse. The context of Cornelius's actions is the same as the reaction to Paul and Barnabas; old habits die hard, I suppose.
Your question is an interesting one - I will have to try to stump a Priest with that one; I'll let you know the response. My gut reaction is that we are talking apples and oranges between Acts and George Bush bowing while meeting the Pope, but I'll let you know the response I get.
At this time, I believe the only way to gain a private audience with the Pope at one's request is to be a head of state, and you can bet they will be versed in etiquette. When one head of state bows or gestures before another, it is an acknowledgment of sovereignty.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 7/1/2008 3:37:03 PM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/1/2008 4:38:48 PM
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Zhi
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Whether or not it's appropriate for the supreme leader of the RCC to be a head of state is another interesting question.
As for Cornelius, he was not quite a Judaic proselyte but about as close as you can get without actually becoming one, so he certainly should have understood that it would be inappropriate to think of Peter as any sort of deity. It's more likely that he was trying to appropriately recognize the office of a representative of God.
< Message edited by Zhi -- 7/1/2008 4:45:02 PM >
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/1/2008 9:19:23 PM
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PeterD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Whether or not it's appropriate for the supreme leader of the RCC to be a head of state is another interesting question.
As for Cornelius, he was not quite a Judaic proselyte but about as close as you can get without actually becoming one, so he certainly should have understood that it would be inappropriate to think of Peter as any sort of deity. It's more likely that he was trying to appropriately recognize the office of a representative of God.
I agree with what Zhi has written, "It's more likely that he was trying to appropriately recognize the office of a representative of God."
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/2/2008 5:48:42 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
Catholics have a completely different view of Church than Protestants, in my view.
You are correct. To the Catholic the Church is the RCC. To the non-Catholic the Church is the Body of Christ.
quote:
I am waiting for someone to explain the Protestant view...
I believe you may have already encountered it. It is quite simple. The Church consists of all the redeemed ones of Christ. They are the Body and He is the Head. There is no earthly "head" who can act on His behalf.
quote:
... and this thread is to discuss the specific aspects of who gives voice to the authority that is Church, as Protestants understand Church.
The voice of authority is the Holy Spirit Himself, speaking through the Word of God. This authority has not been delegated to one man, but the elders of each church are to labour in the Word and in doctrine, and present God's truth to His flock from the Word. The Holy Spirit will then testify to the truth. Elders are not to lord it over God's heritage, but be servants -- the greatest one being the servant of all.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/2/2008 6:53:18 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
The Holy Spirit will then testify to the truth. How? What does this look like?
I claim I am Spirit-guided in my selection of my faith, and you claim you are in the selection of yours, and our faiths are different (yours is incomplete in my eyes, mine is superfluous in yours)
Which one of us is the Holy Spirit fooling? How do we know? Who is the arbiter or the authority? What if one of us is claiming "Spirit-guided", but actually hasn't got a clue as to what that is, or how it manifests itself?
quote:
To the Catholic the Church is the RCC. To the non-Catholic the Church is the Body of Christ. Surely you've been reading enough here all along (judging by the number of your posts) to know better than this. Let me correct you.
To the Catholics, the Body of Christ is all who have been Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, with water. Within this Body, each individual more and less fully practices the faith deposited with the Apostles. And there is a definite ability to recognize those in full communion with the other Catholics and those who reject and refuse this communion (presumably out of pride, arrogance, or simply being poorly instructed).
To many outside the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ is everybody who professes Jesus as Lord and Savior - except the Catholics and EO, who are automatically excluded for a plethura of reasons, the least of which is the fruits demonstrated by participating in this faith.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 7/2/2008 7:07:46 AM >
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/2/2008 6:54:36 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
so he certainly should have understood that it would be inappropriate to think of Peter as any sort of deity. I have a different understanding of this passage, apparently.
Let's ask the Pope what he thinks....
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...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/2/2008 10:05:38 AM
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Zhi
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quote:
I have a different understanding of this passage, apparently.
Let's ask the Pope what he thinks....
Well, the passage is pretty clear about Cornelius.
Acts 10:1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon {Note that 3 in the afternoon would be a prescribed prayer time for the Jews} he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" 4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked. The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.
Acts 10:22 The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." 23 Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.
He would not be respected as a righteous and God-fearing man by all the Jewish people if he was still a practicing pagan.
Acts 10:36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached-- 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
Cornelius even already knew about Jesus.
So, again, considering Cornelius's extensive knowledge and adherence to the Jewish faith, it seems rather unlikely that he would be attempting to worship Peter as a god like a pagan would. He would know better.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/2/2008 12:57:44 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
I claim I am Spirit-guided in my selection of my faith, and you claim you are in the selection of yours, and our faiths are different (yours is incomplete in my eyes, mine is superfluous in yours)
Which one of us is the Holy Spirit fooling? How do we know? Who is the arbiter or the authority?
but dear, you are suggesting that RC and Pope are that arbiter and that authority.Why?He is theologically learned? Granted, but there are people in Protestantism that are just as learned, or more...
quote:
EZRA:
To the Catholic the Church is the RCC. To the non-Catholic the Church is the Body of Christ.
DH:
Surely you've been reading enough here all along (judging by the number of your posts) to know better than this. Let me correct you.
To the Catholics, the Body of Christ is all who have been Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, with water.
According to the Word of God Church is the Body :
Ephesians 1:22-23, "And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way."
1 Corinthians 12:27-28 also says, "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues"
So RC has to or admit all Body of christ is the Church or go with "multiple brides allowed" :) under moronic system.
neah.., i am not gonna edit.i will clarify separately. 
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 7/2/2008 1:11:19 PM >
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/2/2008 1:00:12 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
"multiple brides allowed" :) under moronic system.
Mormonic, you idiot. Innocent slip, i swear!
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/2/2008 2:07:19 PM
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tspencley
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the rcc is nobody
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/2/2008 2:37:34 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tspencley
the rcc is nobody
Who are you?
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/2/2008 4:09:20 PM
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gmc4Jesus
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In looking back at the original question, Lurker posted this comment. I wish to comment on his post.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
We need one because Jesus appointed one!
Matthew 16:18: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church."
Peter of course, being the greek word for rock. Here we have Jesus saying "You are rock, and upon this rock I will build my Church."
Now I'm sure that someone will try to use the old argument about Petras/Petros. But do keep in mind, Jesus was speaking aramaic at the time, in which there is no difference between "small stone" and "rock" like Greek. In Aramaic, "rock" is translated to "Kepha" which is of course what Peter was referred to several times in the Scriptures (four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians btw). Note the reference to "Cephas" there. That would be the Greek transliteration of "Kephas"
So, we have Jesus appointing Peter/Cephas to be the rock that He will build His Church on.
The "rock" that Jesus is refering to in this passage is not a man, but the confession that the man made. It is the confession of Jesus Christ as Lord and the Son of God that saves us and is the foundation for Christ's Church, not Peter. Some comments on Peter's humanness have already been discussed. Jesus had to reinstate Peter after he had betrayed Jesus at the trial. Paul later exposed Peter as a hypocrite in Galations because Peter was showing partiality against the Greek Christians when the Jewish Christians were around.
Peter doesn't qualify to be anything more than an Apostle.
The Pope is given way too much authority and power for being a mere man. He definitely does not have the absolute authority to tell us how to interpret Scripture.
We would be far better off if we would give Jesus half as much recognition and attention as we often give to ther men.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/2/2008 6:29:47 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
but dear, you are suggesting that RC and Pope are that arbiter and that authority.Why?He is theologically learned? Granted, but There are people in Protestantism that are just as learned, or more... I didn't suggest any arbiter. I want to know who should fill that role. And I have an answer, and I believe that answer is backed up by Paul. You are "kind of" on the right track....
quote:
So RC has to or admit all Body of Christ is the Church or go with "multiple brides allowed" I believe I could cite the Catechism to demonstrate that the RCC teaches that there is but one faith - defined as the deposit in the Apostles by Jesus - and all those who claim "Christian" should be trying to fully and accurately follow that faith. There are some that are more successful than others, and some that avail themselves of greater resources than others in this pursuit.
There some that are more greatly blessed to pursue a life of faith and some less blessed. And we are judged relative to our gifts.
I think the Catechism reflects all of this.
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...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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