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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/2/2008 6:33:56 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 920
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
The "rock" that Jesus is referring to in this passage is not a man, but the confession that the man made. I think its both - this is why Peter was renamed - to recognize that the faith and the man were inseparable. Jesus hands Peter the keys in the next verse or two, so clearly, Jesus bestowed in Peter an authority that was not given to you or I. And I believe it was because of this acceptance of what was revealed to him by God, an acceptance based on faith, not fact.
quote:
The Pope is given way too much authority and power for being a mere man. He definitely does not have the absolute authority to tell us how to interpret Scripture. The Pope has the authority given him by his predecessors - one of whom was Peter, who received the keys from Christ. The Church has the absolute authority to instruct our faith and to guard it against heresy. And the Pope is her voice. This is the mission for which the Church was created - to guard, defend, instruct and convey the faith - to bind and loose, etc.
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/5/2008 3:54:41 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3653
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I was reading Acts last night, and found this interesting.
Acts 10:25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."
"How to Greet the Pope", from e-How.com (http://www.ehow.com/how_11183_greet-pope.html)
Step1 Dress appropriately, regardless of your views on dress codes and personal liberty.
Step2 Choose a dark suit for a private or semiprivate audience with the pope, if you're a man.
Step3 Select a dress that covers your shoulders and reaches near your knees, if you're a woman. Dress pants are acceptable these days, but were not in earlier times.
Step4 Addressing the pope by letter, one writes to His Holiness, the Pope or His Holiness Pope __________, Vatican City, 00817 Rome, Italy.
Step5 Use the following salutation: Your Holiness or Most Holy Father.
Step6 Say "Your Holiness" or "Most Holy Father" when speaking directly to the pontiff, no matter what your religious affiliation.
Step7 Listen to the pope's assistants for instructions on where to stand in the audience room.
Step8 Make a low bow, or go down on one knee, when being presented to the pontiff. Once again, disregard your religious affiliation.
Step9 Take the pope's right hand and kiss his ring if you're a Catholic.
Step10 Take and shake the pope's right hand if you're not a Catholic.
If the Pope is the successor of Peter, why does the Pope insist on people kneeling before him, which is the exact opposite of what Peter insisted on? What is the thinking behind the idea that one should kneel before the Pope, when it was inappropriate to kneel before Peter himself?
This is a very real,serious and sad commentary on RC. The Apostle Peter was most humble as he emulated His Lord. There is no humbleness in the scenario of those on bended knee kissing a ring before a man upon what can only be considered a throne. If he knew, Peter would grieve over such an offensive display of superiority and self-importance. Surely, this saint of God had no such attitudes. Another proof positive that popes are not successors to Peter.
RC popes do not emulate Peter as he emulated his Lord. This has absolutely nothing to do with "etiquette" it is simply a demonstration of worship. One can greet a pope in a very civil manner recognizing him as a head of state without the groveling.
But, obviously this is done at the insistence of RC "tradition". Another case of RC tradition contradicting and trumping Scripture.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/5/2008 11:07:41 AM
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PeterD
Posts: 462
Joined: 4/27/2007
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Hello
What are the similarities between the Lord Jesus and Simon when being tempted by the devil in Matthew 4:7-11 and Luke 22:24-34
also,
notice how the Lord Jesus addressed the issue about, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Luke 22:25-26
because,
the Lord Jesus himself said, "7Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." 10Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written,
"'You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.'"
Since the Lord Jesus was tested in this way so shall Peter be tested in this way. Since, Peter and the other Apostles were told to not be like "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that.
Are the Popes tested in the same way as the Lord Jesus and Peter?
verse 26
Matthew 4:1-11
The Temptation of Jesus
1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3And the tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread." 4But he answered, "It is written,
"'Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple 6and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,
"'He will command his angels concerning you,'
and
"'On their hands they will bear you up,
lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"
7Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." 10Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written,
"'You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.'"
11Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.
Luke 22:24-34
24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest.
24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. 28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
33But he replied, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death."
34Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."
then remember,
31"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers." Luke 22:31-32
Since the Popes believe they come from Peter then are the Popes like Peter in where the Lord Jesus said, "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
Peter begins to preach strengthening his brothers starting in Acts 2:14-
just as the Lord Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."
11Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Jesus Begins to Preach
Do the Popes also start out the same as Peter as we read about Peter in scripture about the ups and downs in his walk in the Lord Jesus.
Peter
< Message edited by PeterD -- 7/5/2008 11:33:48 AM >
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/9/2008 11:39:48 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1857
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quote:
O:
but dear, you are suggesting that RC and Pope are that arbiter and that authority.Why?He is theologically learned? Granted, but There are people in Protestantism that are just as learned, or more...
DOG:
I didn't suggest any arbiter. I want to know who should fill that role. And I have an answer, and I believe that answer is backed up by Paul. You are "kind of" on the right track.... thank you. I appreciate your humbleness, dear DH but you do suggest Pope and RC as arbiter. I disagree with it , and the hisory of RC proves that they have changed their ways many times: Pope boniface and his ilk were saying one thing, many other Popes said another. tons of other things has been changed : so who is the arbiter for Catholics? The most current Pope? 
quote:
O:
So RC has to or admit all Body of Christ is the Church or go with "multiple brides allowed"
DH: believe I could cite the Catechism to demonstrate that the RCC teaches that there is but one faith - defined as the deposit in the Apostles by Jesus - and all those who claim "Christian" should be trying to fully and accurately follow that faith. There are some that are more successful than others, and some that avail themselves of greater resources than others in this pursuit.There some that are more greatly blessed to pursue a life of faith and some less blessed. And we are judged relative to our gifts.I think the Catechism reflects all of this
Cathecism by the way is a very good material for a lot of things, it does explain many basic truths we all agree on very, very clearly! Statement of faiths from modern Prot churchs are so vague as if written by B.obama  . That is what i deeply appreciate about RC, outside of beautiful biuldings and incredible weath of resourses on theology and -my favorite esp.- about the lives of Saints.
Any Popes were ever made saints btw? I should read about it,but i think yes.
I guess we would have to respectfully disagree on definition of the Church.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/10/2008 5:36:22 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 920
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Any Popes were ever made saints btw? I should read about it,but i think yes. The first 36 bishops at Rome, down to Liberius, and, except for Liberius, all the popes to Symmachus, the 52nd, in the year 498, are honored among the Saints; and out of two hundred and forty-eight popes, from St. Peter to Clement XIII seventy-eight are considered martyrs for the faith.
The bad ones tend to get much more publicity...
quote:
I guess we would have to respectfully disagree on definition of the Church. Okay...so long as it is "respectfully"... 
_____________________________
...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/11/2008 4:46:01 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3653
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
O:
So RC has to or admit all Body of Christ is the Church or go with "multiple brides allowed"
DH: believe I could cite the Catechism to demonstrate that the RCC teaches that there is but one faith - defined as the deposit in the Apostles by Jesus - and all those who claim "Christian" should be trying to fully and accurately follow that faith. There are some that are more successful than others, and some that avail themselves of greater resources than others in this pursuit.There some that are more greatly blessed to pursue a life of faith and some less blessed. And we are judged relative to our gifts.I think the Catechism reflects all of this
Cathecism by the way is a very good material for a lot of things, it does explain many basic truths we all agree on very, very clearly! Statement of faiths from modern Prot churchs are so vague as if written by B.obama . That is what i deeply appreciate about RC, outside of beautiful biuldings and incredible weath of resourses on theology and -my favorite esp.- about the lives of Saints. As much as it pains me, Odeliya, I must disagree that the Statement of Faith in Protestant churches is "vague". While it's possible that it is, in fact, vague in some churches, the ones I'm familiar with are not.
If you seek "vague" you need only look to RC as they continue to defend "infallibility" in the face of their popes clearly reversing ex cathedra statements.
As for the deposit of faith, the Bible is clear there is only one; and, that is the Apostolic Deposit - Scripture.
Speaking of Obama, did you hear he wants to raise the sea level...and, why not?....it's unfitting that he should have to step down when he walks on water...LOL
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/11/2008 5:32:55 PM
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loco79
Posts: 61
Joined: 6/18/2008
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The pope is the supreme arbiter on the Catholic faith. Many claim that he is not necessary, and at the same time say they have final authority on all things regarding God.
I am thankful for one because that would be a heavy burden on any given individual to, to be the supreme authority on everything dealing with God, seems like a rather large task for any one person. But the pope doesnt do it by himself, there are bishops and so forth to help him. Just like in many protestant chuches there are boards and or elders, who claim to be doing the same thing.
It is clear in many of Paul's writings that certain people are have authority over others when it comes to scripture and faith. And Peter also tells us that the bible is not for personal interpretation.
So the real question is, if there is no need for a pope, then is there a need for any spiritual leader? Of course we know that all christian churches have a hierarchy with someone that is always placed at the top ( sometimes it is a small group of people) And in every church we accept these people as our leaders and guides, and we are willing to let them teach us.
If you dont like the title called pope, call it whatever you want, and remember everychurch has someone who is at the top. The pope just happens to be the most highly publicised leader. Just like in america we have a president who for better or worse is more publisized the all the rest, and yet every country has a leader, doesnt really matter if they call him president or not
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/11/2008 5:48:59 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3653
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quote:
ORIGINAL: logo79
The pope is the supreme arbiter on the Catholic faith. Many claim that he is not necessary, and at the same time say they have final authority on all things regarding God.
Actually, no one I know claims to have final authority - they leave that position to God in His Holy Word. Which, I might add, is where it should be.
quote:
I am thankful for one because that would be a heavy burden on any given individual to, to be the supreme authority on everything dealing with God, seems like a rather large task for any one person. Again, no Protestant claims to be the "supreme authority" on spiritual matters. Actually, even less so than a Roman Catholic does.
quote:
And Peter also tells us that the bible is not for personal interpretation. Then why does your church continue to do so?
quote:
So the real question is, if there is no need for a pope, then is there a need for any spiritual leader? The Bible knows nothing about "popes"; but, it does teach about elders and deacons, and yes, they are the spiritual leaders of a church.
quote:
If you dont like the title called pope, call it whatever you want, and remember everychurch has someone who is at the top. The pope just happens to be the most highly publicised leader. I agree, he is the most well-know religious leader; but, that is not the issue. The Bible does not endow any individual, since the Apostles, with either inspiration or "infallibility". Both of which your church claims - that is the issue and the crux of the debate.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/13/2008 9:22:37 PM
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loco79
Posts: 61
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Kelman
If you disagree with any of the Catholic teachings, and can honestly say that they are wrong on certain beliefs, then you must possess the authority from somewhere to say that they are wrong. If you dont have any authority, then you would have no ground to stand on in disagreeing with them.
The fact that there are thousands of Protestand denominations and not one single one, that means that since all christians follow there own set of rules, we all, even you interpret it your own way.
Whoever is the head of you church is your supreme authority on faith. Unless you claim to have more then them, either way, you do believe in someone or a couple of people that have all authority regarding faith. We just happen to give the title of Pope. The bible doesnt say trinity yet we know it exists.
2 Ti 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also
Also, if apostlistic succession was not passed on down, then how would any of us today have the authority to baptise people. You cant just give yourself the authority to baptise, it is but one of the powers of authority passed down from the apostles
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/13/2008 10:18:49 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1117
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quote:
The fact that there are thousands of Protestand denominations and not one single one, that means that since all christians follow there own set of rules, we all, even you interpret it your own way.
Given that the Protestants are splits off the Catholic church, isn't this kind of a "pot calling the kettle black" scenario? If your Popes hadn't been so horrifically corrupt, you wouldn't have a Protestant church to point at. And, you split off from the Orthodox. So why should we listen to you, and not to the Orthodox church that you split off from? There isn't one single apostolic church either (since Orthodox, Anglican, and RCC all claim to be apostolic, among others), so apparently that's not a fair metric.
Besides, even within their church, the Catholics have their own sects.
quote:
Also, if apostlistic succession was not passed on down, then how would any of us today have the authority to baptise people. You cant just give yourself the authority to baptise, it is but one of the powers of authority passed down from the apostles
John the Baptist did. He must have had some sort of authority to do so, as Jesus Himself was baptised by him. It certainly wasn't apostolic authority.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 12:19:09 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1857
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
As much as it pains me, Odeliya, I must disagree that the Statement of Faith in Protestant churches is "vague". While it's possible that it is, in fact, vague in some churches, the ones I'm familiar with are not.
Shouldn't pain you in the slightest,K - I agree,my mistake, i must have used the wrong wording. I have also seen very to the point Statements, but some also were really watery - probably that is mostly the "mega -social clubs that pass for church" types. :)
quote:
Speaking of Obama, did you hear he wants to raise the sea level...and, why not?....it's unfitting that he should have to step down when he walks on water...LOL  to stay within the spirit of the thread and OP - this is another person that hopes to occupy the chair he is not fit for : ))
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 12:26:55 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1857
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Any Popes were ever made saints btw? I should read about it,but i think yes. The first 36 bishops at Rome, down to Liberius, and, except for Liberius, all the popes to Symmachus, the 52nd, in the year 498, are honored among the Saints; and out of two hundred and forty-eight popes, from St. Peter to Clement XIII seventy-eight are considered martyrs for the faith.
The bad ones tend to get much more publicity...
quote:
I guess we would have to respectfully disagree on definition of the Church. Okay...so long as it is "respectfully"...
Appreciate the information, DH. I am sceptical, and suspect not all Popes that got sainthood deserved it, some most likely got it thru office politics, but also am confident there were some real martyrs for Jesus whose life of faith can be an inspiration. You virtually dont see many people today, esp in western society that live for something bigger then their precious selves:)
Correct, we very respectfully disagree on what is True Church.I would never agree with RC definition, and you naturally consider P definition to be wrong.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 5:38:16 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3653
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quote:
ORIGINAL: loco79
If you disagree with any of the Catholic teachings, and can honestly say that they are wrong on certain beliefs, then you must possess the authority from somewhere to say that they are wrong. All authority comes from the Bible; and, in a number of doctrines RC demonstrably contradicts Scripture. So that would be my authority.
Besides which you must possess an authority from somewhere to say those teachings are correct.
quote:
If you dont have any authority, then you would have no ground to stand on in disagreeing with them. God has given us His Word and has instructed ALL to diligently study it. So, it is clear to me that is the ground, the authority on which I stand.
I stand on the ground God commands me to in Gal 1:8 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." It is unfortunate but your church began to preach another gospel quite some time ago.
The authority on which you stand is yourself when you agree RC doctrines are correct.
quote:
The fact that there are thousands of Protestand denominations and not one single one, that means that since all christians follow there own set of rules, we all, even you interpret it your own way. What's your point? RC is in no better position. Who do you go to with a moral question? To your parish priest?...what good is that? he is not "infallible". Do you go to the local bishop?...he's just as fallible as you. Do you go to a cardinal or even the pope himself?...what good is that since the cardinal is fallible and the pope wouldn't be answering "ex cathedra".
Sorry, you guys have no advantage whatsoever. The supposed "all truth" for its people is a big fat failure.
quote:
Whoever is the head of you church is your supreme authority on faith. No, that is incorrect. There is only "one" supreme authority and that is the Bible. If I was in a church where the pastor taught contrary to Scripture, I would be able to recognize it. Why?...because I take God at His word and diligently study Scripture.
quote:
The bible doesnt say trinity yet we know it exists. And why do we know the Trinity exists?....because we find the evidence for it in the Bible.
quote:
2 Ti 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also This verse offers no support for your position...why bring it up? Paul is telling Timothy to preach to other faithful men all that Paul had taught in front of many witnesses. We don't see any particular authority being given to anyone.
quote:
Also, if apostlistic succession was not passed on down, then how would any of us today have the authority to baptise people. Read how God sets up His church and you will find He gives authority to elders and deacons in the church. They have spiritual authority to baptize, to ready the Lord's Supper and to preach the Word of God.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 5:46:28 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3653
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
As much as it pains me, Odeliya, I must disagree that the Statement of Faith in Protestant churches is "vague". While it's possible that it is, in fact, vague in some churches, the ones I'm familiar with are not.
Shouldn't pain you in the slightest,K - I agree,my mistake, i must have used the wrong wording. I have also seen very to the point Statements, but some also were really watery - probably that is mostly the "mega -social clubs that pass for church" types. :) I haven't read any of these mega church's statements of faith; but, I'm pretty sure we'd find them to be very watered down, huministic and wrapped up in a very social gospel... I have seen this Joel Osteen on TV.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 10:17:44 AM
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loco79
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Jesus built a church, not a bible, last i checked the church was: the pillar and bulwork of truth, gave it the keys to the kingdom of heaven, ability to bind and loose sins, the ability to baptise, has the ability to settle disputes, and Jesus is one with the church just as husband is to wife.
Jesus is not one with the bible just as husband and wife are one.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 11:26:51 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1117
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Scripture is the very breath of God.
Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Scripture is the original words of the apostles you claim to follow, tellings us exactly what our Christian faith consists of and how it should be practiced, in their own words, by influence of the Holy Spirit.
If you despise Scripture, then you despise God Himself. If you despise the Scripture, you despise the very apostles that you claim founded the church.
Why would you be so proud that your church is supposedly based on the apostles, and despise the words they wrote preserved through the ages? It seems your priorities are horribly skewed there.
< Message edited by Zhi -- 7/14/2008 11:41:35 AM >
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 12:39:19 PM
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loco79
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why does it not say that the scripture is the pillar of truth?
1 Tim 3:16
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
2 Tim 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
What are the only scriptures Timothy would have known from his childhood? Only the OT existed in his childhood.
Mt 18:15-17
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.But if he will not hear thee then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Funny how when we are supposed settle our disputes, the scripture tells us to go the church.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 1:17:20 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1117
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quote:
why does it not say that the scripture is the pillar of truth?
1 Tim 3:16
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Well, that's 1 Tim 3:15. But, nowhere in there does it mention the Pope, or the RCC specifically. So, how do we know that the RCC is the correct church, or perhaps it's the Protestant churches, or perhaps it's the Orthodox church that you split off from? Or perhaps it's what Protestants for the most part believe, the body of all believers?
Furthermore, how do we decide what the Truth is? Well, I would think we would have to go back to the words of Jesus Himself, as written down by the Apostles. When the RCC differs from the Word, then it isn't upholding Truth, is it.
Incidentally, it's kind of amusing to me that you're using Scripture, which you disdain, to prove that it's supposedly correct for you to disdain Scripture. I also think that your church would be a little horrified to find the low regard for which you regard your own holy book.
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2 Tim 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
What are the only scriptures Timothy would have known from his childhood? Only the OT existed in his childhood.
Timothy states there that Scripture has a purpose, specifically to "make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus". He states that it has a specific purpose, as noted in 3:16. This is the purpose for which the NT was also canonized as Scripture. Unless you don't think the writings of the Apostles in recording the very words of Jesus is also given to us by God? Unless you don't think that the words of Paul, Peter, etc, instructing us in our faith are not also divinely inspired? If you don't think that the NT is inspired by God, then you're going to have to start proving that the RCC is the true church using the Old Testament. If you DO think the NT is inspired by God, then it is Scripture, and what Timothy said about Scripture applies.
This also does not avoid the fact that the NT was, for the most part, written BY THE APOSTLES. So, even if you don't think that the NT applies to 2 Tim 3:16, you still need to accept the fact that if you want your church to be apostolic, it should be founded on the words of the apostles. Which, again, is the NT. You can't claim that your faith is apostolic, but then disdain the actual teachings of the apostles.
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Mt 18:15-17
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.But if he will not hear thee then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Funny how when we are supposed settle our disputes, the scripture tells us to go the church.
Okay. So if your fellow Christian sins against you, then you're supposed to eventually, after discussing it privately and it not getting resolved, then discussing it with a couple of other people and it not getting resolved, take it to the church.
I really don't know what you think this has to do with despising Scripture, needing to listen to the Pope, or being in the RCC.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 1:41:56 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 428
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
If you despise Scripture, then you despise God Himself. If you despise the Scripture, you despise the very apostles that you claim founded the church.
Zhi,
I've had this thrown at me multiple times and it is patently unfair and untrue. We honor scripture and from our perspective treat it the way it was meant to be treated. It is the word of God, but it is really part of the total deposit of revelation, which includes the Church and her members. The bible came from the Church and so to approach it as a stand-alone "document" to be freely interpreted by every tom, dick and harry, is just, well unscriptural.
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Okay. So if your fellow Christian sins against you, then you're supposed to eventually, after discussing it privately and it not getting resolved, then discussing it with a couple of other people and it not getting resolved, take it to the church.
I really don't know what you think this has to do with despising Scripture, needing to listen to the Pope, or being in the RCC.
Because in the multiple congregational/denominational construct of protestantism this construct can't be executed/used. There is no final denomination that can "make the call" if there is a conflict between Christians from different denominations.
Again, the only think we "despise" is protestant interpritation of scripture.
Otis
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 1:51:04 PM
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loco79
Posts: 61
Joined: 6/18/2008
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This is why Jesus created a church to help clarify and teach what the truth is.
I never said that the NT wasnt inspired, we know it is because of the church and not because of scripture.
the Pope is similiar to your elders and so forth. A spiritual guide who has a certain role. Just like in the OT, not every Jew could go into the temple, those who God granted their authority could. And no the OT doesnt give a list of pharisees that were granted, the church had to decide.
To me it is the church with the bible, we clearly cant have one or the other. The bible doesnt teach (please correct me if i am wrong) that is the sole guide for faith, and that nothing matters.
If i recall correctly Jesus told peter whatever he binds and looses. My point is that what up to Peter to decide what was important, and he does not limit how far his reign of truth should go.
No matter how you try and spin it, the church is the body of christ and not scripture. To the people of the church the powers from God were given, not to the bible.
I cant find a verse that says that the pillar of truth is the bible. That Jesus taught the bible to go and baptise all nations. That Jesus gave the bible the authority to bind and loose sins. That the bible can pray for each other. That the bible is the arbiter of men in faith. Jesus prayed that we will be of one mind and body, just has he and the father are, he didnt pray for scripture to be of one mind and body.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 1:56:06 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1117
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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I actually pointed out in my last post that I didn't think loco's view of the scripture was par for what RCC people are supposed to think of the scriptures.
quote:
I've had this thrown at me multiple times and it is patently unfair and untrue. We honor scripture and from our perspective treat it the way it was meant to be treated. It is the word of God, but it is really part of the total deposit of revelation, which includes the Church and her members. The bible came from the Church and so to approach it as a stand-alone "document" to be freely interpreted by every tom, dick and harry, is just, well unscriptural.
I've pointed out several times that this simply is not true. The Bible did not come from the RCC. The Bible predates the schisming off of the RCC from the Orthodox church by well over 500 years. The Council of Hippo was presided over by the Bishop of Carthage, not the Bishop of Rome.
Protestants don't think that the Bible is freely interpreted by every tom, dick, and harry either... we believe that when we study it, God Himself, in the form of the Holy Spirit, guides us in proper interpretation. This includes a willingness to consult a theologian if we're not sure we're reading things correctly, as well.
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Because in the multiple congregational/denominational construct of protestantism this construct can't be executed/used. There is no final denomination that can "make the call" if there is a conflict between Christians from different denominations.
Again, the only think we "despise" is protestant interpritation of scripture.
I'm really not seeing where you're seeing the continued escalation up some heirarchical chain. It's a 3 step process. Talk it out between yourselves. Get 2 or 3 witnesses, talk it out. Take it to your local congregation, talk it out. It is assumed, in those verses, that at that point, it will be taken care of, for better or for worse.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 2:06:17 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1117
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
This is why Jesus created a church to help clarify and teach what the truth is.
I never said that the NT wasnt inspired, we know it is because of the church and not because of scripture.
We know the Bible is inspired because God said so.
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the Pope is similiar to your elders and so forth. A spiritual guide who has a certain role. Just like in the OT, not every Jew could go into the temple, those who God granted their authority could. And no the OT doesnt give a list of pharisees that were granted, the church had to decide.
Who served in the temple was drawn by lot from a tribe specified by God (Levites), not picked by their version of "church".
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To me it is the church with the bible, we clearly cant have one or the other. The bible doesnt teach (please correct me if i am wrong) that is the sole guide for faith, and that nothing matters.
You're missing the point. The Bible is the operating manual of the church. It was written by the Apostles, who formed the church. It was written for the specific purpose of telling the church what they were supposed to do, according to what Jesus said, and according to what the Apostles said under inspiration of God. So, when you have an instruction manual written by the people who made the thing, "well, we've always done it this way" does not really cut it as an argument for doing something contrary to the specifications spelled out in the instruction manual.
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If i recall correctly Jesus told peter whatever he binds and looses. My point is that what up to Peter to decide what was important, and he does not limit how far his reign of truth should go.
Jesus said the same thing to the rest of the disciples later on. Furthermore, last I checked, Peter is dead. Has been for quite some time.
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No matter how you try and spin it, the church is the body of christ and not scripture. To the people of the church the powers from God were given, not to the bible.
Right, but they're the people who WROTE the Bible. So, we have the written accounts and instructions of the people to whom God gave the power and authority as Apostles. Why would you not expect that to trump the words of some guy 2,000 years later in a church that was formed 1,000 years after the Apostles were writing those words, who claims to be a successor of those apostles but whose "succession" has gone through some truly depraved people?
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I cant find a verse that says that the pillar of truth is the bible. That Jesus taught the bible to go and baptise all nations. That Jesus gave the bible the authority to bind and loose sins. That the bible can pray for each other. That the bible is the arbiter of men in faith. Jesus prayed that we will be of one mind and body, just has he and the father are, he didnt pray for scripture to be of one mind and body.
The Bible is the words of those who were the founders of the Church. It is the words of those who went out to baptise all nations. It is the words of those given the authority to bind and loose, the words of those praying for each other, the words of those who were the original arbitrators. You can't separate the two. The Bible is the foundation not because it's a special fancy book, but because it was WRITTEN by those who God specifically chose to found His church, therefore they would know how that church is supposed to behave.
You can't claim that you're following the Apostles, and disregard their words.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why do we need a Pope? - 7/14/2008 2:09:02 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 295
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: loco79
To me it is the church with the bible, we clearly cant have one or the other. The bible doesnt teach (please correct me if i am wrong) that is the sole guide for faith,
You are correct - The Bible does not teach this.
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Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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