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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/6/2007 8:44:15 PM
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DeborahL
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Dear Kelman:
"The only actual evidence of anyone being born without sin is John the Baptist. No evidence for a conception without sin - that's simply a purely fanciful speculation."
1. Per the Word:John the Baptist says that he is not worthy...to walk in the shoes.. . WHY? Gee it must be becasue of SIN. His parents said they were not sinless -well , whoa...what's up?
2. Conception without sin happened with Jesus as God Incarnate WHO overshadowed Mary IN faith.
AND what does faith mean> HOLY RIGHTEOUS AND REDEEMEDED PER THE WORD OF GOD.
And get this: AVAILABLE TO ALL MANKIND.
grace and peace
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/6/2007 9:03:23 PM
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ukfan
Posts: 340
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeborahL
Dear Ukfan:
In your post of 1708:
You did NOT give one passage from the teaching of the gospel of GOD, that SUPPORTS Mary was what you stated in your passages from OTHER "fathers", that were NOT chosed by God, as the 12 were.
I've given Scripture verses in this thread and other Catholics have as well. You don't have to go too far back to look at them. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they're not there...
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/6/2007 9:26:30 PM
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DeborahL
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Dear Kelman:
"Besides, when life begins as it relates to the "sinlessness" of Mary is not off-topic."
Indeed.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/6/2007 9:32:34 PM
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DeborahL
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Ukfan:
"I've given Scripture verses in this thread and other Catholics have as well. You don't have to go too far back to look at them. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they're not there..."
However not one from The Word Of God that states that Mary is without sin.
I can read, understand and reason why.
Because the gospel from God's Word is built on only one who was <sinless>: the worthy lamb of God >Jesus< who came down from heaven to take away sin.
grace and peace
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/6/2007 9:33:23 PM
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Papa-san
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I have yet to see any scripture verses that do any more than allude to a possibility that if one ignores a few scripture references that say to avoid something, you can make up what you want because it isn't specifically denounced. Like Mary being sinless. Someone decided that she wanted her to be considered that way, so after ignoring scripture that says "no-one is worthy, no not one", they made her worthy...Without any scriptural backing...
No, you have NOT backed your position with scripture. (I know, because I've been asking and watching.) You may have quoted some scripture that really doesn't relate to the specific issue at hand, but if mis-interpreted could allow for a maybe...
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/6/2007 9:41:47 PM
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DeborahL
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right, papa --san.
What is just maybe?
IN faith, and what is true in His word. ..must be steadfast.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/6/2007 11:10:20 PM
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ukfan
Posts: 340
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
I have yet to see any scripture verses that do any more than allude to a possibility that if one ignores a few scripture references that say to avoid something, you can make up what you want because it isn't specifically denounced. Like Mary being sinless. Someone decided that she wanted her to be considered that way, so after ignoring scripture that says "no-one is worthy, no not one", they made her worthy...Without any scriptural backing...
No, you have NOT backed your position with scripture. (I know, because I've been asking and watching.) You may have quoted some scripture that really doesn't relate to the specific issue at hand, but if mis-interpreted could allow for a maybe...
To keep it short, I'll refer you to this and this.
There is also a radio program I listened to recently. If I can find the link to that I'll post it too.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/7/2007 2:06:52 AM
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kelman
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quote:
This argument doesn't fly. Through out a couple of Church Fathers that may have insinuated or even believed that Mary sinned to discredit this Dogma but then ignore the mountain of quotes that state Mary was without sin.
Of course it flies. The point being made was there were many fathers who did not agree with RC's modern doctrines concerning Mary. No one denied there is ample evidence from those who did agree. The doctrines lack support from many church fathers; but, more importantly, they lack even the slightest scriptural support. Therefore, they should be promptly discarded as non-valid.
quote:
Sounds like Dan Brown logic... Papal logic......Dan Brown logic.....not much difference.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/7/2007 2:08:12 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeborahL
Dear Gato:
"Unfortunately, you have diverted the conversation from the topic. DeborahL asserted that embryos sin and I merely asked her when exactly does she think that happens in the life of a pre-born child. Why are you unwilling to let DeborahL answer for herself?"
I did. And,
Just as the Word of God teaches us:
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,
and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all men,
because all sinned---"
grace and peace
Good scriptural point here, Deb. Death is the evidence of sin. Precisely, why RC then had to go to the next unscriptural doctrine - that Mary was "assumed".....the anti-biblical domino effect in action.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/7/2007 2:09:17 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3742
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeborahL
Dear Kelman:
"The only actual evidence of anyone being born without sin is John the Baptist. No evidence for a conception without sin - that's simply a purely fanciful speculation."
1. Per the Word:John the Baptist says that he is not worthy...to walk in the shoes.. . WHY? Gee it must be becasue of SIN. His parents said they were not sinless -well , whoa...what's up?
2. Conception without sin happened with Jesus as God Incarnate WHO overshadowed Mary IN faith.
AND what does faith mean> HOLY RIGHTEOUS AND REDEEMEDED PER THE WORD OF GOD.
And get this: AVAILABLE TO ALL MANKIND.
grace and peace
Glad you reposted this. John the Baptist certainly wasn't "sinless". It would have been better had I simply used the words Scriptures uses concerning him, that he was: "Filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb."
Iow, he was saved in his mother's womb.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/7/2007 2:18:40 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3742
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
I have yet to see any scripture verses that do any more than allude to a possibility that if one ignores a few scripture references that say to avoid something, you can make up what you want because it isn't specifically denounced. Like Mary being sinless. Someone decided that she wanted her to be considered that way, so after ignoring scripture that says "no-one is worthy, no not one", they made her worthy...Without any scriptural backing...
An important point you've made. If we simply go about deciding on doctrines when they are neither explicit or implicit in Scripture, or worse still, finding justification because Scripture is totally silent about the issue, we wind up with Mormonism. After all, Scripture doesn't explicitly say Satan is not the spirit-brother of Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/8/2007 8:32:07 PM
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Jim_Stanton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary
She wasn't sinless. If she was, then why did she get born-again?
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/9/2007 6:34:00 PM
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ukfan
Posts: 340
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
I have yet to see any scripture verses that do any more than allude to a possibility that if one ignores a few scripture references that say to avoid something, you can make up what you want because it isn't specifically denounced. Like Mary being sinless. Someone decided that she wanted her to be considered that way, so after ignoring scripture that says "no-one is worthy, no not one", they made her worthy...Without any scriptural backing...
An important point you've made. If we simply go about deciding on doctrines when they are neither explicit or implicit in Scripture, or worse still, finding justification because Scripture is totally silent about the issue, we wind up with Mormonism. After all, Scripture doesn't explicitly say Satan is not the spirit-brother of Jesus Christ.
Nor does Scripture mention Sola Scriptura, implictly or explictly, yet you base this discussion on that very premise...
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/9/2007 7:57:08 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
Nor does Scripture mention Sola Scriptura, implictly or explictly, yet you base this discussion on that very premise...
That's pretty much a no-brainer: Correct, it doesn't mention that name, because that particular 'handle' for scripture was coined after the canons determined what was scripture and what wasn't.
This still doesn't change the fact that (canonized) scripture says specifically that all doctrines need to be compared to scripture to determine if it is truth or heresy!
So here we continue the discussion simply because Catholics want to continue to believe in and follow heretical doctrine... Not to mention defending that heretical stance in the face of scripture that says not to do it! How many things are wrong with this picture?
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/9/2007 7:59:27 PM
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ukfan
Posts: 340
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
Nor does Scripture mention Sola Scriptura, implictly or explictly, yet you base this discussion on that very premise...
That's pretty much a no-brainer: Correct, it doesn't mention that name, because that particular 'handle' for scripture was coined after the canons determined what was scripture and what wasn't.
This still doesn't change the fact that (canonized) scripture says specifically that all doctrines need to be compared to scripture to determine if it is truth or heresy!
No, it doesn't.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/10/2007 2:45:34 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3742
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
I have yet to see any scripture verses that do any more than allude to a possibility that if one ignores a few scripture references that say to avoid something, you can make up what you want because it isn't specifically denounced. Like Mary being sinless. Someone decided that she wanted her to be considered that way, so after ignoring scripture that says "no-one is worthy, no not one", they made her worthy...Without any scriptural backing...
An important point you've made. If we simply go about deciding on doctrines when they are neither explicit or implicit in Scripture, or worse still, finding justification because Scripture is totally silent about the issue, we wind up with Mormonism. After all, Scripture doesn't explicitly say Satan is not the spirit-brother of Jesus Christ.
Nor does Scripture mention Sola Scriptura, implictly or explictly, yet you base this discussion on that very premise...
The point was justifying RC doctrine by declaring "it doesn't say it didn't happen". This is one very ineffective method used, for example, of defending the assumption of Mary.
As for SS, it is the only thing declared by God to be of His inspiration - God breathed. And, He managed to be very explicit as to what He thought of the "traditions" instituted by men.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/10/2007 10:13:55 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1080
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Psalms 12:6&7 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."
His promise to preserve it. A much bettter promise than can be made or was made by any pope, cardinal, saint, church father, etc.
1 Corinthians 12:10
"To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:"
and
1 John 4:1
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Understanding of these, together with being blessed by God with the gift of discernment are a formidable case against many Catholic 'traditions'.
2 Timothy 3:16
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
I keep trying to use it thus, and it is continually rejected.
2 Peter 1:20
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Self explanatory... when a believer reads it, the interpretation is made.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/10/2007 7:10:17 PM
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ukfan
Posts: 340
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The point was justifying RC doctrine by declaring "it doesn't say it didn't happen". This is one very ineffective method used, for example, of defending the assumption of Mary.
Demanding all truth to be explicitly written in Scripture is never in fact mentioned in Scripture, i.e., a doctrine of man.
quote:
As for SS, it is the only thing declared by God to be of His inspiration - God breathed. And, He managed to be very explicit as to what He thought of the "traditions" instituted by men.
Catholic Tradition is not instituted by men.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/10/2007 7:20:22 PM
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ukfan
Posts: 340
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Psalms 12:6&7 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."
Preserving Scripture is not the same as demanding all truth to be explicitly written down in Scripture.
quote:
1 Corinthians 12:10
"To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:"
and
1 John 4:1
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Understanding of these, together with being blessed by God with the gift of discernment are a formidable case against many Catholic 'traditions'.
Or to discern the man made doctrine of Sola Scriptura
quote:
2 Timothy 3:16
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
I keep trying to use it thus, and it is continually rejected.
2 Peter 1:20
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Self explanatory... when a believer reads it, the interpretation is made.
Again, Scripture being useful for teaching is not the same as saying all truth must be explicitly written in Scripture nor is the Holy Spirit interpreting Scripture.
Based on this logic, you would have not believed in Jesus had you been alive during His lifetime because the OT does not explicilty say 'God the Father will send his only begotten Son to suffer and die for man's sins.'
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/11/2007 2:44:07 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3742
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
Demanding all truth to be explicitly written in Scripture is never in fact mentioned in Scripture, i.e., a doctrine of man.
No one suggests that "all" truth is contained in Scripture. But, all truth that is necessary for the perfection of man is contained in Scripture. It says exactly that (2Tim 3:16-17).
quote:
quote:
As for SS, it is the only thing declared by God to be of His inspiration - God breathed. And, He managed to be very explicit as to what He thought of the "traditions" instituted by men.
Catholic Tradition is not instituted by men. That's plain silly, of course, it is. It is the same type of tradition practiced by the Pharisees. They added so many unbiblical doctrines Scripture became unrecognizable. It is precisely this which Christ railed against.
Jesus and the Apostles left us one thing, RC gives another...
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
"It is not so much a matter of the denial of the truth, but rather such an addition to the truth that eventually it becomes a departure from it."
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/15/2007 10:21:58 AM
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Mannamuncher
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Ponder Mary in the context of John 8...
Shouldn't she have chucked a few stones ?
Shouldn't Mary have been first in line with
a handful of stones to cast in her perfection ?
John 8:7 (King James Version)
7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Mary and other women followed Jesus around.
Mary never stepped forward to throw a stone.
No one went to locate and retreive "sinless" Mary...
_____________________________
Lay siege to your sins, and starve them out, by keeping away the food and fuel which is their maintenance and life. (Baxter)
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/15/2007 7:07:32 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1347
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Kelman:
"John the Baptist certainly wasn't "sinless". It would have been better had I simply used the words Scriptures uses concerning him, that he was: "Filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb."
Iow, he was saved in his mother's womb"
Indeed, being filled with the Holy Ghost does NOT mean anyone is "SINLESS":
"The only actual evidence of anyone being born without sin is John the Baptist.
No evidence for a conception without sin - that's simply a purely fanciful speculation."
I see you have retracked from this earlier thought. :)
grace and peace
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/15/2007 7:13:42 PM
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DeborahL
Posts: 1347
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Ukfan:
"Nor does Scripture mention Sola Scriptura, implictly or explictly, yet you base this discussion on that very premise..."
There is ONLY one sinless person that was human: Christ--in Hebrews we learn that he had to take on the likeness of his brothers IN ORDER to be the priest who intercedes for us: to reign over death.
grace and peace
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/15/2007 10:10:57 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 549
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Mannamuncher,
quote:
Shouldn't she have chucked a few stones ?
Only if she had been guilty of the sin of pride.
Fortunately, she wasn't.
gatolover
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 12/16/2007 11:36:22 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1080
Joined: 4/12/2006
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Hmmmm...
Not entirely correct, gato... As a 'sinless' Hebrew, she would be required to cast a stone as was commanded by Jewish law. To not have done so would have been it's own sin...
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