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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 10/31/2006 1:09:28 PM
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gospelintruth
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Great Prayer and I agree with you, that even we Gentiles (outwardly) may appear to be arrogant towards the Jews. Though as Paul himself teaches, "They are not all Israel because they are descendants by birth, for the children of the promise are children of Abraham".
And we who make up the children of promise represent the rebuilt nation of Israel, the Israel Paul calls "Of God". Jews were hardened and chosen for wrath to bring in the nations. We are the result of their rejection, and by our acceptance of Christ and love for God, the Jews have returned to the Israel of God and have indeed been blessed, having been grafted back in. This has happened for a long time now. A Jew returning to the ancient land was not intended, but instead a New Jerusalem was intended. But first, they had to be rejected and destroyed. Though Paul tried very desperately to save as many of them as he could. And they were successful. But remaining Jews, however, became so evil that they began to sleigh each other. God had no choice but to remove the people who defiled His reputation and name. And it was through this action (70 AD destruction) that the nations came to know the mighty hand of God. Prince Titus himself said, "I could not have done this deed accept this be permitted by the hand of their God". Though Titus was not a Christian, he himself witnessed the mighty power of God because all the nations came to love the temple which stood amongst them. But this pride of the Jews was taken away for good reason; to give way and direction towards the New Bride, the New Light, which would now reign over the earth, and to teach them that God did not fulfill His promise to place his Spirit or King in a building of brick and stone, but the hearts and minds of those who believe.
Now here we are, over 2006 years later, we have fleshly Jews wanting to return and build a temple because they believe THEIR Messiah is about to come, NOT THE MESSIAH we accept, but THEIR MESSIAH. And those who partake of this and assist them in their efforts are rejecting the true Messiah as well. Now if they did this based on the understanding of the true Messiah, building the temple would not even come into their heart or mind. But they are acting and repeated these things based on Old Traditions of the Law. And Protestants are joining them in this error.
As for True Jews, that's already explained, that those who are in Christ are Jews by the Spirit who make up the Israel of God. Jews by flesh only who reject the true Messiah are still under a curse. But there are millions of Jews by flesh who worship in Spirit and in truth. Just visit the Orthodox Church and you'll see for yourselves. You may not agree with their religion, but you tell me, which is worse? To be an Jewish Orthodox Christian, or a heretic who does not believe the Messiah came, but will come after he rebuilds the temple? Which do you choose?
Amen!
_____________________________
For to live is Christ, but to die is gain.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 10/31/2006 9:16:05 PM
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Daniel_Lang
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quote:
Great Prayer and I agree with you, that even we Gentiles (outwardly) may appear to be arrogant towards the Jews. Though as Paul himself teaches, "They are not all Israel because they are descendants by birth, for the children of the promise are children of Abraham".
HOW A SLIGHT CHANGE OF WORDS CHANGES THE MEANING. WHAT PAUL IS SAYING HERE IS THEY ARE NOT ALL THE CHILDREN OF PROMISE BECAUSE THEY ARE ISRAEL, JUST AS HE SAYS THEY ARE NOT ALL THE CHILDREN OF PROMISE BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM. FOR IT IS WRITEN, "FOR THE CHILDREN BEING NOT YET BORN, NEITHER HAVING DONE ANY GOOD OR EVIL, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, NOT OF WORKS, BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH." (ROM 9:11) WE WHO ENDURE TO THE END BY GRACE REIGN WITH CHRIST AS KINGS AND PRIEST WITHOUT A LAND AS IT IS WRITTEN. FOR OUR FULL INHERITANCE IS GOD HIMSELF: WE LIVE AND REIGN IN HIS PRESENCE FOR ALL ETERNITY. WE ARE NOT THE NATIONS OF THE SAVED, WE ARE THE SAVED.
LET IT NEVER BE SAID GOD HAS REJECTED HIS PEOPLE, ISRAEL. FOR THEY ALL MUST BE SAVED. THERE WILL BE A GENERATION THAT COMES TO THE SAVING FAITH OF CHRIST JESUS. WILL WE GENTILES FORSAKE OUR INHERITANCE OF THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOREVER, TO BE THE NATIONS OF THE SAVED? WILL WE BRING OUR GLORY TO THE NEW JERUSALEM AND NOT ENTER IN, AND NOT LIVE AND ABIDE IN THE GLORY OF GOD FOREVER. AGAIN GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE ISRAEL. THE ASSEMBLY OF THE LIVING GOD IS MADE OF ISRAEL AND THE NATIONS (GENTILES), BUT AGAIN GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE. AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE SCRIPTURES OF THE PROPHETS, "THERE SHALL COME OUT OF ZION THE DELIVERER, AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB: FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THERE SINS." (ROM 11:26) REJECT NOT ISRAEL. FOR THE GLORY OF THE LORD IS ABOUT TO BE REVEALED IN ISRAEL. "AND THE SAME HOUR WAS THERE A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, AND THE TENTH PART OF THE CITY FELL, AND IN THE EARTHQUAKE WERE SLAIN "7000 NAMES OF MEN" (LOOK IN THE KJV FOOTNOTES IF THIS IS INDEED THE TRANSLATION): AND THE REMNANT WERE AFFRIGHTENED, AND GAVE GLORY TO THE GOD OF HEAVEN." (REV 11:13)
Daniel
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 10/31/2006 9:36:52 PM
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gospelintruth
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The remnant have allready been delivered from the wrath of God against Jerusalem. It doesn't mean every single Jew of fleshly status has to be saved, neither does every gentile have to be saved.
Salvation is not based on the denial or acceptance of the Jew, for we are all Jews. And Jews are not Jew by birth just because of their blood line, though at first it was so as to maintain the geneology of the "seed" being Christ. But now that Christ has come, all are partakers of His glorious gifts and have put on Christ. And through Christ we are Jews, but only by being grafted into His vineyard. What Paul was saying is they can be grafted back in again, IF they do not continue in disbelief. But they have, and I've met many of them.
There are more Jewish Christians than there are Jewish Rebellors.
Joseph
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For to live is Christ, but to die is gain.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/1/2006 10:27:03 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/1/2006 11:10:25 AM
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Daniel_Lang
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Paul did not write "all Jews shall be saved" and neither did I. Again, Paul wrote in Roman 11:26, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written". All Israel shall be saved, from all the twelve tribes without partiality.
The word "Jew" is a untranslated word. It is a shorted, anglicized form of the Hebrew word for Judah or Jehudah brought forth through the Greek language. Judah actually came to represent the two southern kingdom of Israel and its two tribes, Judah and Benjamin. It was this land of Judah (consisting of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) that was judged by the Babylonianians in 586BC. They, alone, the two southern tribes were issued a decree to return to the land. This decree came forth from Cyrus. (The land of the ten northern tribes were judged by the Assyrians in 722BC by the Assyrians, and were never issued a decree to return to the land.) Thus it was the returned inhabitants of the southern kingdom, that became known as Jews. These were those whom Jesus came to His own and His own received Him not. This is who is spoken about in the New Testament when the word Jew is used. Since that time the word Jew has been applied to all of Israel. All the astrocities and persecutions down through the ages in the name of Christ Jesus, were not afflicted on two tribes, but all twelve tribes. Some of these would be the decree of Constantine, the Crusades, the expulsion of Jews out of various lands, the Inquisitions, the formation of ghettos, so-called Christian nations turning there back on the Holocaust and preventing Jews from immigrating such as the US and the UK and others, and I could go on. Such as in 1492, oh Gentile man, you commemorate the Christoper Columbus founding America, in the same years by the same king and queen, who funded Columbus, Ferdinand and Isabella, all Jews who had lived on the Iberian pennisula for centuries were expelled. So boast, oh Gentile, for you say the Jews are so wicked and you know not your own legacy. And apart from the grace and mercy of God you shall utterly perish in your sins.
But I tell you God has not forgotten His people called by His name, Israel. For as much as men might want to argue and debate, there is a nation on the earth called Israel. And all Israel shall be saved, not only two tribes, but without partiality those from every tribe. There are only lost tribes of Israel as it relates to men. God has no lost tribes. And I tell you God has a remnant in the land of the Gentiles who will be saved from the judgment that come quickly, as it is written, "Except the Lord of hosts has left unto us a very small remant, we would have been as Sodom, and we should be like unto Gomorrah."
Daniel
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/1/2006 1:01:50 PM
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gospelintruth
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The Israel of the nation, and the Israel of God....which do you prefer? Paul himself makes a distinction....you call me Gentile by flesh, but by Spirit, I am a Jew. So not only was Israel saved, but Israel is much bigger, because the Israel of God represents the children of promise. The Israel of old represents the children of slavery. The Jews by flesh who accept are set free from bondage and into the knowledge of God's kingdom. And though they are grafted in, we are all one, and give glory to the Father who sent His Son, a Jew by birth, and has made Jerusalem to be a habitation of the world. That's why the New Jerusalem is so big...larger than the first Jerusalem.
Judah is a name which refers to rebellion. But Christ brought an end to Judahs reputation by making that tribe a noble tribe, by fulfilling the Law. King Jesus now reigns on the throne of David and we who are of His promised Spirit worship and serve the true King, not the King the nation of Israel expects. To say they will accept the Messiah when He comes in the future is still a rejection of the Messiah who died on the cross. You await a Messiah to make them a nation stronger than all; they await the same thing, just as they did 2006 years ago. That is a false messiah, for the Messiah I worship in Spirit and in Truth (scripturally) came and died, and Behold, He is alive forever more. And His kindom which we rejoice in shall have no end......His name be blessed forever.
Why do you wait for a Messiah that is already within you? if so be that you have the Spirit of Christ, and I'm sure you so, but haven't learned all things yet.
_____________________________
For to live is Christ, but to die is gain.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/1/2006 5:58:11 PM
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Daniel_Lang
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I am repeating myself, how a slight change of words changes the meaning. What Paul is saying here is they are not all the children of promise because they are Israel, just as he says they are not all children of promise because they are the seed of Abraham. Again for it is written, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth." (ROM 9:11) They boasted that they were the people of God because they were of Israel. Just as some of us boast over them, that we are the people of God because we call ourselves Christians. I have previously written to you about the legacy of the Gentiles toward Israel, and you ignored this completely. You condemn them for what you say are their atrocities, ignoring the atrocities of the Gentiles who say they have a greater light. If you condemn them who had not the Spirit before Pentacost, what will be your condemnation toward those who partook of the Spirit and commintted atrocities not only in one nation but throughout all the earth. Paul wrote the Roman letter, and it became as a prophecy to Rome, who did not learn its truth, and built there horrible of all ghettos outside its palaces. A ghetto is not a place that a people make for itself, it is a walled in place that is made for them, and this is only one of the legacies the Gentile in the name of Christ have made for themselves. I shout, if any man has ears, God has not rejected His people called by His name, Israel.
How can you condemn Israel for what God has done. Will you condemn Israel, because through their unbelief, faith came to the Gentiles, the nations. You will have to condemn and judge God, for He purposed these things. God chose the children before they were yet born, or had done any good or evil. Do you not see that all that has befallen Israel is the purpose of God. Is it not written, Esau I have hated, and Jacob I have loved? And was it not so in the womb before neither were yet born, or had done any evil or good. How can this be? It cannot be understood apart from the grace and will of God. For truly God loves all men without partiality, but Jacob I have loved, and Esau I have hated. Everything is as it should be, for God to be the lover of all men without partiality.
In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, there is neither male or female: for ye are all one in Christ. But I do not see you trying to convince men of a spiritual man or woman, spiritual bond or free, but you will try to say spiritual Israel. Do you not know this is who we are in Christ? That whether male or female, bond or free, Jew or Greek we shall reign with Christ forever: we are not given in marriage. You can make an argument that the church is a spiritual Israel of some sort, but you do not go around saying you are a spiritual woman.
Because of the blindness in part of Israel these past centuries, as she was blessed with the Christ, Jesus, being born of a women, under the law, of Israel of the tribe of Judah, and blessed with 12 apostles being of Israel and blessed of believers of every tribe of Israel being saved from the judgment of Jerusalem in 70AD, to complete the purpose of God and His lack of partiality toward any people or nation, He shall save all Israel in this generation. And it will not wait until Christ Jesus returns. He will return to a nation, Israel, saved. You say this is a false messiah. I tell you this is Messiah, for I know the gospel I preach and it is sure and true, that the Christ, Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures, He was buried and He rose again the third day according to all the writings of the porphets.
Daniel
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/1/2006 7:45:47 PM
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gospelintruth
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I don't see how you're saying the word of God was twisted. Let's review again:
19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
"I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION,
BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU."
20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,
"I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."
21 But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."
Yes the mystery was God would provoke the Jews to jealousy by revealing himself to those who did not ask for Him. These were Gentiles. But why did God choose to harden these people? Because "All day long I have stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people". I didn't condemn them, God did. I merely point it out.
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
This says clearly that God did not reject Israel, but chose a remnant, those who were faithful and accepted Jesus. On the day of Pentacost, more than 3000 people were added, who were Jews, and even some from different nations. This began the fulfillment of choosing between the deserving and undeserving. But remnant means small amount, not large amount.
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
The deliverer was Christ, who came to Zion and removed the sins of Jacob. Jacob in the past (OT) was always rebellious. So Christ, having been born from the tribe of Judah, brought nobility back to Judah by showing himself to be obedient. Thus, by his obedience and sacrifice, he restore the fortunes of Judah and established a great name among the Nations. His removing of sin was regarding the 70 AD destruction. By destroying their pride and trust in brick and stone, this sealed the promise of deliverance. Those who listened and remembered the words of the Apostles, that when they saw the armies surrounding Jerusalem, they left and fled into the mountains. This was God destroying those He rejected. But before then, the ministry of the Apostles was still at work. So Paul says in this same letter that he wanted to magnify his ministry to make them jealous. He did this in the book of acts, having shaken the dust from his feet as a testimony against them. But they instead sought after his life.
What does Paul teach the Galatians who wanted to revert to Judiasm?
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27 For it is written,
"REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30 But what does the Scripture say?
"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
Note the two Jerusalems mentioned...one of slavery and one of free, one of land, and one from above. We see here that the children of literal Israel represented the children of slavery. But the children of promise are more than the children of slavery and represent the Jerusalem of God. Note he also says, "Cast out the Bondwoman and her son, for the son of the Bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman". Yet Paul himself shows how Jews who refused Christ because of Judiasm are rejected and represent the children of bondage. But children of Sarah represent the children of freedom. And what says the scripture? CAST THEM OUT for THEY SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR.
Now this doesn't mean cast out the Jews...for that is absurd. Rather, it says to CAST OUT THE CHILDREN OF BONDAGE which represents Mt. Sinai, the Old Law. So Jews who live in Israel today are not heirs of the promise because they choose to be children of bondage. They also reject that Christ came 2006 years ago, and believe THEIR version of the Messiah (not ours) is about to come. What I mean is this. If they still reject the Messiah which came 2006 years ago, this will not be the Messiah which comes in their hopes; for they still reject the true Messiah. Now, if they accept the Messiah that came the first time, and for some reason believes he's returning, THAT is acceptable. But this is not predicted for Prophesied. They are looking for the Messiah who will rule from the Temple of Moses, a system that was done away with. Therefore, rightly did I say they are searching for the wrong Messiah, as did the Jews in the first century.
Sadly, Christians today are acting just like Pharisee's. And the Israel of God is indeed spiritual. Here's Paul's statement:
12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Conclusion? God doesn't not reject a Jew, but they reject Him. And those who accept Christ, are grafted back in, and we are all equal. You believe they are given special merit, but that is not the case. We are all equal in Christ, and coming to Christ is the key. Looking for the Messiah to rule from the temple IS NOT the key, but Pharisee.
_____________________________
For to live is Christ, but to die is gain.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/1/2006 8:35:24 PM
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Aleric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
How do you translate the Catholic church as it is reflected in prophecy?
WARNING
This topic is highly controversial and will require cool heads and thick skins. Please be courteous and respectful to those who disagree with your stance on this subject.
Thats a tuff question I think. I'm Protestant myself and use to think that the RCC or catholic Church was reflected in a bad way, due to its traditions overlapping each other heavily.
You know what? Thats religion.
All of us can all to often let religion get in the way of God.
I think thats what those scriptures are saying. Although religion is nice and good to be in, it is not the foundation. Christ is.
I began to talk to people from the RCC and catholic Churches myself. I believe quite a few of them have the Holy Spirit and we will be seeing them in Heaven.
What I think we need to look at in correlation is the traditions we all up hold to as Christians to see where we are in those scriptures.
I dont think they are necessarily put in a bad light, but they arent entirely in a good light either.
How many of us are really?
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/1/2006 11:19:19 PM
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Daniel_Lang
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quote:
I didn't condemn them, God did. I merely point it out.
If what you say is correct and not in error, (and it is in error) that Israel is condemned, then too are the Gentiles, which you are part of. The Gentiles in the name of Christ (and again you have not addressed the atrocities in the name of Christ the Gentiles have committed) are also condemned. Please justify the atrocities of the Gentiles in the name of Christ toward Israel in the greater light of the gospel. Please I would like to hear your justification. I have none, but the cry of Jesus, "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." For God is a God without partiality. I speak as a fool. You have forsaken all that Paul gave understanding concerning in Roman 9-11. You understand not the purpose of God in Christ Jesus, and are unable to see what is clearly written in Romans. God rejecting the people called by His name, Israel, and somehow the church becoming spiritual Israel is a doctrine of devils (untranslated word, diabolos, false accusers). The church does not replace Israel. The church is made of those of Israel and Gentiles, kings and priest to our God. But we are not the nations of the saved, we are the saved. Can you not see the difference between the saved and the nations of the saved. Do you not understand that the saints will rule the nations with Christ Jesus? To desire the glory of the nations over the glory of the saints is to desire a lesser glory. For all the nations of the saved in the new heaven and the new earth will bring their glory to the New Jerusalem.
Daniel
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/2/2006 9:23:18 AM
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gospelintruth
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quote:
If what you say is correct and not in error, (and it is in error) that Israel is condemned, then too are the Gentiles, which you are part of. The Gentiles in the name of Christ (and again you have not addressed the atrocities in the name of Christ the Gentiles have committed) are also condemned. Please justify the atrocities of the Gentiles in the name of Christ toward Israel in the greater light of the gospel. Please I would like to hear your justification. I have none, but the cry of Jesus, "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." For God is a God without partiality. I speak as a fool. You have forsaken all that Paul gave understanding concerning in Roman 9-11. You understand not the purpose of God in Christ Jesus, and are unable to see what is clearly written in Romans. God rejecting the people called by His name, Israel, and somehow the church becoming spiritual Israel is a doctrine of devils (untranslated word, diabolos, false accusers). The church does not replace Israel. The church is made of those of Israel and Gentiles, kings and priest to our God. But we are not the nations of the saved, we are the saved. Can you not see the difference between the saved and the nations of the saved. Do you not understand that the saints will rule the nations with Christ Jesus? To desire the glory of the nations over the glory of the saints is to desire a lesser glory. For all the nations of the saved in the new heaven and the new earth will bring their glory to the New Jerusalem.
Daniel
I'm sorry but I didn't exactly understand all your post. I do understand your confusion about physical Israel and Spiritual Israel. Did you not read Paul's passage above?
Is a Jew a Jew inwardly or outwardly? Obviously Inwardly, through Christ, not the flesh.
I understand your belief of a rebuilding of the old nation of Israel, but you are in error because you think this is only accomplished through the rebuilding of the Mosiac Law. The other problems is you believe Christ will set his foot there and they will accept him. Here is the problem with that theory, which is just a theory by the way because there's not direct scriptural support of evidence for your idea, but here's the problem:
1. In Revelation, Jerusalem's outer courts were inhabited by the Gentiles for 42 months. This was fulfilled with Prince Titus in 66 AD and completed in 70 AD. If you do not believe this was fulfilled in 70 AD, then I guess the temple will be destroyed again.
2. If you beleive it's to be destroyed again, then how in the world does Christ rule from a destroyed temple?
3. We are told to worship in Spirit in truth, for these are whom the Father seeks. Expecting a physical return of the Messiah to rule from a temple is false, and ony speculated through unspiritual readers of God's word.....flesh cannot interpret spiritual words, though literalists think that Christ teaches them God's "literal" word. Why would God have to teach the literal word?
4. Revelations clearly states that after Jerusalem's destruction, the Voice, Bride, and Light are never heard in her again.
Finally, if you still do not believe that Jeruslam is Babylon in Revelation, then you're going to have a very hard time finding another location where Christ was crucified, the saints were killed, and the temple stood.
The Church is the New Jerusalem, Jews by Spirit, not by the flesh. You seem to love boasting in the flesh. The Israel of God (As Paul puts it) is the Church. The Israel of slavery is fleshly Jews (or anyone for that matter) who desire the Laws of Moses and old Temple worship. WE are the living temples of the Holy Spirit, of flesh and blood, not brick and stone. God forever praised! Amen!
_____________________________
For to live is Christ, but to die is gain.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/2/2006 9:48:32 AM
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gospelintruth
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Continued for Daniel Lang:
I wanted to add this portion of scripture to help you understand Paul's writing of Jew's by flesh and Jew's by promise:
Romans 9: 6-8
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Therefore, if this applied to them of the past 2006 years, it's still active today. The regathering of the nation of fleshly Jews does not constitute a fulfillment of the promise. You are confusing the passage about God temporarily hardening the hearts of the Jews to make them jealous, so that all Israel will be saved. This was accomplished during the ministry of the Apostles, and the dead line was completed on the final seven week of Daniel. After that, their time ran out. But today, and for the past 2006 years, millions of fleshly Jews worship Christ. The Greek Orthodox Church I'm trying to become a member of is mostly Jews by flesh, but they are true Jews by Spirit. As for the 12 Tribes you're hoping to see, those haven't existed for to milleniums. They don't even know the blood type of the first Tribes, so how are they going to accomplish this impossible task of finding out which tribe they belong to? Those probably don't even exist anymore.
But salvation doesn't come by a regathering of Jews who are not children of the promise. Rather, an ingrafting of Jews who accept the Messiah (Jesus) as their King is the saving of Israel. And this is accomplished, not of works (or of land for that matter) but of him who believes. As the passage above states, the children of promise are the descendants of Abraham. So you must ask yourself, do the Jews who want to rebuild the Mosiac Temple represent the children of promise? By no means! Those represent the children of slavery, and as posted above, THEY SHALL NOT.....I repeat.....THEY SHALL NOT be heirs of the promise. ONLY those of the promise are children of God and serve in His Kingdom, and bless the womb of Sarah, making her our mothers. And through the seed of Abraham shall the descandents be made more than the children of slavery. It's NOT the children of "seeds" as in many, but the "seed" meaning one, that is, through Christ. And we who are in Christ are the children of Abraham.
And we Jews through Christ make up the Israel of God, the New Jeruselam, the fulfillment of the promises. Paul saved as many as He could during those day, but the rest who were not a Jew, but a temple of Satan (Revelation) were destroyed, because they were not the children of promise. You ARE NOT a Jew by flesh, but by Spirit. If the "Nation" of Israel makes Jesus their King, that would be an awesome thing. But as it is, there are many there that want to rebiuld the thing that caused their destruction, for that was set aside, and a new and better covanent exists, and shall have no end.
Which do you support? Christ or the Pharisee? Freedom of Promise or slavery?
_____________________________
For to live is Christ, but to die is gain.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/2/2006 1:36:31 PM
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Daniel_Lang
Posts: 44
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
I understand your belief of a rebuilding of the old nation of Israel, but you are in error because you think this is only accomplished through the rebuilding of the Mosiac Law. The other problems is you believe Christ will set his foot there and they will accept him. Here is the problem with that theory, which is just a theory by the way because there's not direct scriptural support of evidence for your idea, but here's the problem:
Dear friend, I almost do not know where to start, but I will try. You say I think the rebuilding of the nation of Israel is only accomplished through the rebuilding of the Mosiac Law. I think no such thing neither did I say such a thing. Jesus said "the law and prophets prophesy until John" and "I have come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it". I understand the purpose of God and how it relates to Law. I understand that if a law could have been given to produce righteousness then one would have most surely been given and Christ Jesus would not have died.
You quote from Roman 2:28: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is circumcision which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." You took this out of context to make your point when Paul was specifically talking about Jews. Roman 2:17 states, "Behold thou art called a Jew and restest in the law and makest thy boast of God." Paul is talking about the Jew believers, with understanding that Gentile believers are not exempt. Do you not think that it is necessary understanding for Gentile believers to correctly understand God's purpose toward Israel, that they be not highminded and condemning? Did Paul somehow redefine being a Jew according to your view in Roman 3:1 when he writes, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." Since we are all spiritual Jews and Israel according to your interpretation, then were the oracles of God committed to Jew and Gentiles. If this is so Paul contradicted himself in Eph 2:11, "Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands, that at the time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world."
As I said before my understanding is not that Israel will be saved or converted when Jesus returns. Israel will be saved before the return of Christ, all Israel shall be saved, not according to the works of the Law, but by grace through faith, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.
Do you not know that Gentiles are the wild olive branch which God is able to graft in contrary to nature? Do you not know that Israel is the natural olive branch that God is able to graft back in, which is not contrary to nature?
You not even once attempted to justify or explain the atrocities the Gentiles in the name of Christ have afflicted upon those of Israel. You continue to gloss over it. Do you not see that it is errors as yours that have blinded the Gentiles to God's eternal purpose in Christ Jesus toward Israel? God has not rejected His people! "Boast not against the branches." (Rom 11:18)
If the words I write are what you say a "theory" let me put that in scriptural terms for you. You are saying what I speak is my opinion, that I am privately interpreting the scriptures. This is the word, heresy, and untranslated word from the Greek, heresias. This means to take for oneself. "No prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation" declares Peter the apostle. Either I speak according to truth, or error. I rest not on my own understanding but the understanding of apostles, Jesus the christ being the chief cornerstone. Theory is not understanding to the saving of the soul. Theory will not save a man. And studying the theories of others will not save a man. This matters such as Israel and prophecy have long been held as a matter of debate not really necessary. I tell all that they are matters to the saving of the soul. And to reject the purpose of God as I declare toward Israel is perdition.
Titus 3:10 declares: "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, because he condemneth himself."
If all there will be is contentions, I will respond no more.
"The day of Christ is at hand!"
Daniel
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/6/2006 10:17:18 PM
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Judah1966
Posts: 129
Joined: 8/12/2006
Status: offline
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I would like to state and I believe that certain groups that called themselves christians in the past like the crusaders WERE NOT believers. Jesus even says some say they are jews and they are not they are liars. G-d also says that a true jew to Him is someone with a pure heart. I believe God will never completely abandon His people Israel they are the apple of His eye including me and I continue to pray for a pure heart to be found in Him when the eastern sky splits and He returns to rule and reign from Jerusalem.I do believe the catholic church is in prophecy and I dont believe its Jesus` true church.The true Church of Christ is made up of people who are made new by His Spirit and we wouldnt want to hurt anyone.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/12/2006 9:44:10 AM
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SeminoleTom
Posts: 39
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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I have a question, something I've been wondering for some time. First let me say that I am an Evangelical Born Again (Protestant) Christian. The question is for those that belive a pope will be the anti-christ. If you believe this do you believe that all Catholics in the history of the Catholic church are in hell right now? I ask because I would like to know if you think my grandparents are in hell? You see I believe that a Pope could be the anti-christ in the future. It makes some sense and has merit. However, I don't believe all catholics are in hell. My grandparents taugh me about Jesus, who He was, and were the first to teach me the Lords Prayer. They had a love for Jesus. They knew He is the savior and all humans sins were lifted when He died on the cross. I'm evangelical protestant because I believe the protestant way of worshiping is more consistent with how I understand the bible. I do believe that some catholics can get bogged down with the rituals of the Catholic Church and thus missing the message of the gospel. But like I said I do not belive that all Catholics are in hell b/c a pope maybe the anti-Christ. What do you think?
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/12/2006 10:51:48 AM
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Judah1966
Posts: 129
Joined: 8/12/2006
Status: offline
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I believe there are Christians in the catholic church. However I dont believe the catholic church is The Church. As far as who the antichrist is theres alot of speculation out there but I dont think anyone knows for sure at this point. But I can tell you this I dont care what church Im affilated with, I want my eyes open and not too religious or prideful not to think he couldnt be in my congregation.As far as whos in hell geees I dont even want to say whos there.I wish no one was there.I dont think theres a church on the earth that follows Christs words to the letter but if one Im in starts to put a man or a woman = to G-d, I want out of there.
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/12/2006 11:23:19 AM
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Saved-To-Serve
Posts: 182
Joined: 5/3/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SeminoleTom
I have a question, something I've been wondering for some time. First let me say that I am an Evangelical Born Again (Protestant) Christian. The question is for those that belive a pope will be the anti-christ. If you believe this do you believe that all Catholics in the history of the Catholic church are in hell right now? I ask because I would like to know if you think my grandparents are in hell? You see I believe that a Pope could be the anti-christ in the future. It makes some sense and has merit. However, I don't believe all catholics are in hell. My grandparents taugh me about Jesus, who He was, and were the first to teach me the Lords Prayer. They had a love for Jesus. They knew He is the savior and all humans sins were lifted when He died on the cross. I'm evangelical protestant because I believe the protestant way of worshiping is more consistent with how I understand the bible. I do believe that some catholics can get bogged down with the rituals of the Catholic Church and thus missing the message of the gospel. But like I said I do not belive that all Catholics are in hell b/c a pope maybe the anti-Christ. What do you think?
1. Salvation is a personal matter. We are saved by faith in Christ, and, to be saved, each individual must exercise that faith for himself/herself.
Also, faith comes by hearing or reading the word of God. And, whoever or whereever a person is, and he/she hears or reads that word, he/she can exercise faith and be saved, whether Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise.
Even those who may never hear a preacher or read a Bible, can know, through various evidences provided, that there is a God, and can submit to Him and be saved. Note:
quote:
"1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, *where their voice is not heard.
4 Their *line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world"(Ps 19:1-4)
In short, if your grandparents, or any other Catholics, or any other persons, for that matter, exercised faith in Christ as their Saviour, and lived accordingly then there is nothing to worry about.
2. As for the antichrist/beast/man of sin, I must admit that the biblical evidence is not encouraging if one is a Catholic.
Speaking of the man of sin in 2 Thess. 2, Paul says that he will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming. So he will exercise control until Christ comes, but will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming.
But Paul didn't invent this information. He got it from the prophecies of Daniel. And when we study Daniel, who/what do we find reigning until the end and then being destroyed? Rome.
We especially see this in Dan. 2 and 7.
In Dan.2 four empires/kingdoms are presented in the form of an image with different metals, each metal representing a kingdom:
Gold/Babylon,
silver/Medo-Persia,
Brass/Greece,
Iron/Rome.
Note that Rome continues to the end in the form of iron and clay that just doesn't hold together despite prolonged and repeated efforts to make it stick together.
Now, since the fall of the Roman Empire, who/what has been the driving force behind the continuation of Rome and the attempts to keep or put the remnants of the empire back together, including the European Union? The papacy.
Again, in Dan.7 these same four empires/kingdoms are presented in the form of four beasts coming up out of the sea. They are:
Lion/Babylon,
bear/Medo-Persia,
leopard/Greece,
Dreadful terrible beast/Rome.
Again, Rome continues to the end, but in the form of a little horn, which grows up out of the fourth beast, and behaves exactly like the beast of Rev. 13 and the man of sin in 2 Thess. 2. And this little horn continues until the end, when it is judged, has the kingdom taken away from it, and is consumed in the burning flame, just like the man of sin in 2 Thess. 2. And the text makes it clear that when this little horn is consumed, it is indeed the dreadful terrible beast (Rome) that is consumed.
Again, who/what is that has not only been, above and beyond all others, the continuation of Rome, but has also claimed the right to exercise God's authority on Earth? The papacy. Unfortunately, but undeniably, it fits the characteristics of the little horn of Dan. 7, the beast of Rev. 13, the man of sin of 2 Thess. 2, aka the antichrist.
Hard to believe, but true.
< Message edited by Saved-To-Serve -- 11/12/2006 11:34:01 AM >
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/13/2006 5:06:01 PM
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SeminoleTom
Posts: 39
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
quote:
ORIGINAL: SeminoleTom
I have a question, something I've been wondering for some time. First let me say that I am an Evangelical Born Again (Protestant) Christian. The question is for those that belive a pope will be the anti-christ. If you believe this do you believe that all Catholics in the history of the Catholic church are in hell right now? I ask because I would like to know if you think my grandparents are in hell? You see I believe that a Pope could be the anti-christ in the future. It makes some sense and has merit. However, I don't believe all catholics are in hell. My grandparents taugh me about Jesus, who He was, and were the first to teach me the Lords Prayer. They had a love for Jesus. They knew He is the savior and all humans sins were lifted when He died on the cross. I'm evangelical protestant because I believe the protestant way of worshiping is more consistent with how I understand the bible. I do believe that some catholics can get bogged down with the rituals of the Catholic Church and thus missing the message of the gospel. But like I said I do not belive that all Catholics are in hell b/c a pope maybe the anti-Christ. What do you think?
1. Salvation is a personal matter. We are saved by faith in Christ, and, to be saved, each individual must exercise that faith for himself/herself.
Also, faith comes by hearing or reading the word of God. And, whoever or whereever a person is, and he/she hears or reads that word, he/she can exercise faith and be saved, whether Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise.
Even those who may never hear a preacher or read a Bible, can know, through various evidences provided, that there is a God, and can submit to Him and be saved. Note:
quote:
"1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, *where their voice is not heard.
4 Their *line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world"(Ps 19:1-4)
In short, if your grandparents, or any other Catholics, or any other persons, for that matter, exercised faith in Christ as their Saviour, and lived accordingly then there is nothing to worry about.
2. As for the antichrist/beast/man of sin, I must admit that the biblical evidence is not encouraging if one is a Catholic.
Speaking of the man of sin in 2 Thess. 2, Paul says that he will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming. So he will exercise control until Christ comes, but will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming.
But Paul didn't invent this information. He got it from the prophecies of Daniel. And when we study Daniel, who/what do we find reigning until the end and then being destroyed? Rome.
We especially see this in Dan. 2 and 7.
In Dan.2 four empires/kingdoms are presented in the form of an image with different metals, each metal representing a kingdom:
Gold/Babylon,
silver/Medo-Persia,
Brass/Greece,
Iron/Rome.
Note that Rome continues to the end in the form of iron and clay that just doesn't hold together despite prolonged and repeated efforts to make it stick together.
Now, since the fall of the Roman Empire, who/what has been the driving force behind the continuation of Rome and the attempts to keep or put the remnants of the empire back together, including the European Union? The papacy.
Again, in Dan.7 these same four empires/kingdoms are presented in the form of four beasts coming up out of the sea. They are:
Lion/Babylon,
bear/Medo-Persia,
leopard/Greece,
Dreadful terrible beast/Rome.
Again, Rome continues to the end, but in the form of a little horn, which grows up out of the fourth beast, and behaves exactly like the beast of Rev. 13 and the man of sin in 2 Thess. 2. And this little horn continues until the end, when it is judged, has the kingdom taken away from it, and is consumed in the burning flame, just like the man of sin in 2 Thess. 2. And the text makes it clear that when this little horn is consumed, it is indeed the dreadful terrible beast (Rome) that is consumed.
Again, who/what is that has not only been, above and beyond all others, the continuation of Rome, but has also claimed the right to exercise God's authority on Earth? The papacy. Unfortunately, but undeniably, it fits the characteristics of the little horn of Dan. 7, the beast of Rev. 13, the man of sin of 2 Thess. 2, aka the antichrist.
Hard to believe, but true.
Saved-to-serve,
I agree that it does not look good for the Catholic Church, but I did want to see what people here thought of Catholics that have passed away--- are they in hell right because a future Pope maybe the anti-Christ. I think you answered what I was looking for.
Thanks
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/13/2006 8:12:16 PM
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Saved-To-Serve
Posts: 182
Joined: 5/3/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SeminoleTom
Saved-to-serve,
I agree that it does not look good for the Catholic Church, but I did want to see what people here thought of Catholics that have passed away--- are they in hell right because a future Pope maybe the anti-Christ. I think you answered what I was looking for.
Thanks
You're welcome, ST.
Faith is the victory!
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RE: Catholic Church in Prophecy? - 11/14/2006 8:10:13 AM
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