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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/12/2007 8:45:21 PM
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Fredriqua
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I'm not sure why this whole topic is so frustrating to me, but it IS. And I've been happily married for the better part of 10 years, so it shouldn't matter.
Perhaps that's exactly WHY the whole "courtship is a spiritually superior (and more Biblical) method of finding a spouse" bugs me so much--because I KNOW from my own experiences that this is not necessarily true. Moreover, when a church embraces such a social experiment as wholeheartedly as our small congregation has, it basically means that if you (and your kids) are the lone holdouts for normal, casual (but of course chaste) dating, then your kids pretty much are going to be loners.
In other words, my church may not come down OFFICIALLY on the side of "courtship only," but they might as well. It might as well be in their statement of faith. Because, it's the REALITY. There's nobody who doesn't think like that. If you try to attend a church where the courtship mentality has taken hold, you're not going to get to go out for ice cream with a boy you like at the age of 16 or 17. And you're going to get looked down upon as less holy if you have a romantic relationship when you're 20. That's the REALITY.
Yet, another reality is that the courtship mentality has turned ANY one-on-one interaction with a member of the opposite sex into a BIG deal, an almost forbidden thing. And I think that's horribly unhealthy.
Think about it. You're a young lady of 22 or 23, and you've never been in a romantic relationship. You've never gone through the process of attracting a young man's attention, getting to know him, "falling" for him, having him reciprocate those feelings, and then discovering that you know, he's just not all that you're looking for in a spouse. So you break up. That's a HEALTHY process...one that helped me immensely to know and recognize the "real thing" when I found it in my now-husband.
But someone bound up in courtship...well, first of all, they view this process as something inherently evil, to be avoided no matter what. Then, they have highly unrealistic ideals about how they're going to build their relationships on a "spiritual" foundation BEFORE they allow themselves to be attracted.
That's not even honest or realistic. We're still human beings, after all, and unless we're BLIND, we're going to know whether or not we're attracted to a person, even if we've never heard them pray or discuss spiritual matters. That's just plain silly, to create this artificial process, this false division between our spiritual selves and our human inclinations.
Think about how ponderous and heavy and SERIOUS it is when, at long last, a young man DOES decide to pay attention to a young lady. First he must gain the approval of the girl's father. The whole family now becomes involved in the process. What is the girl's natural reaction going to be? Of COURSE she's going to be heavily motivated to continue with the relationship, whether or not the guy is ACTUALLY a good match for her. She's been trained to think that allowing herself to "become emotionally involved" is not spiritual and is in fact harmful. So ending a courtship is a much bigger deal than ending a casual dating relationship would be.
Plus, since a courtship involves "pursuing a relationship with the intent of marriage," and the girl has little perspective about what sort of young man she'd actually be compatible with, these girls are primed and ready for the relationship to get serious. I mean--it's actually already serious, by definition.
There's a total lack of perspective on relationships in the courtship system. That's why it produces very few marriages and DOES produce a bunch of socially immature single adults.
This whole thing is just plain silly.
< Message edited by Fredriqua -- 10/13/2007 1:54:53 AM >
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/12/2007 9:08:44 PM
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Geocacher301
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Good points Fredriqua.
Here is some things I have seen some of the flaws pointed out about the courtship system:
1. Many times the "dating with a purpose" mentality forces a couple to either consummate their relationship (marry) or break it off. This has many times lead to couples getting married before they had enough time to get to know each other and then discovering that they aren't that compatible. With marriage being a commitment for life, this can be quite hard to live with a marriage where you aren't the best match.
2. If you don't develop friendships with various people many times it makes it hard for you to figure out what type of personality you are compatible with.
You are right that even if a single in a church like yours that promotes the group approach doesn't have the same conviction it is hard to date when all others are under it. One alternative might be to meet someone from outside the church this single attends but one shouldn't have to do that.
I also agree that this system tends to discourage health friendships between single bothers and sisters. This is quite unhealthy. I am sure that lack of these type of friendships can lead to problems with lust etc.
I know that I have posted this before is the fact that both of Joshua Harris's books are quite biased. He failed to acknowledge any of the problems that have and can occur with the system he promotes while at the same time lambasting dating.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/12/2007 10:27:10 PM
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Fredriqua
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Geo, you sound as though you've lived through the courtship system. It'd be interesting to hear more of your observations. If you've had firsthand experience, did you see many successful marriages?
Not to beat a dead horse, but another interesting aspect of "courtship" is that it tends to involve a lot of parental input. And I sort of wonder about that, too.
I was (still am) VERY close with my parents. And I desired nothing more than to please them. Yet in the end, my mother especially was vehemently opposed to the guy I ended up marrying. After several years and 2 kids, she's mostly gotten over it, but, if I had followed the courtship model, I would probably still be single!! Yet my husband and I have built (through God's grace) a great marriage. We are best friends and have a good life together. We both love the Lord and have always sought to live for Him and honor Him with our relationship and our family.
So I can't help but wonder, isn't that another area where there might be weaknesses in courtship? DO parents truly "know best"? Or is it possible that even believers (like my parents, who are lifelong Christians) who want the best for their children and are seeking to honor God might actually NOT have as good a perspective on the romantic issues of their children?
I SHUDDER to think of the sort of guys my mom would have chosen for me. She would have meant the best, but the guys she wanted me to date were simply not my type. This doesn't mean that she was wrong, or that I was wrong...it honestly was a matter of taste. What happens when the mom in a courtship scenario (or the dad, for that matter) has hugely different ideas than the daughter?
In fact, I just saw this scenario play out in my church. A young man we knew wanted to court a gal. She happens to be 24. He's 23, and I will say, he does have a lot of "baggage" and is a relatively new believer. So I can totally understand when, after he "courted" the father for a couple of months, the father told him "No," against the daughter's wishes.
Yet...come ON. The daughter is 24. I certainly hope that by the time my own daughter is 24, I'd have enough confidence in her judgment to allow her to date whomever she wanted. But this girl was forbidden from pursuing a relationship with this young man, against her own wishes.
The plain truth is, if (as I've said in other posts) the whole courtship thing wasn't such a BIG HEAVY DEAL, this couple could have just GONE OUT a couple of times. Very likely, the gal's own good sense would have told her she wasn't really into the relationship. Or maybe the guy would have decided that she wasn't actually the girl for him.
But instead, it was forbidden. The 24-year-old girl continues to live at home with her parents. The young man...well, I feel sorry for him too. Because, he came to Christ in our church, and the poor guy actually thinks that courtship is part of Christianity, like baptism or the virgin birth.
< Message edited by Fredriqua -- 10/12/2007 10:39:30 PM >
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/13/2007 10:12:31 AM
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Geocacher301
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fredriqua
Geo, you sound as though you've lived through the courtship system. It'd be interesting to hear more of your observations. If you've had firsthand experience, did you see many successful marriages?
Not to beat a dead horse, but another interesting aspect of "courtship" is that it tends to involve a lot of parental input. And I sort of wonder about that, too.
Fredriqua
When I was involved with CLC in the early to mid 90's most of the singles in the group were "orphans", that is they didn't grow up in the church and their parents weren't around. They weren't pushing the single brother going and getting the father's permission to "court" the woman. Thus it was a little different back then. With this courtship emphasis that you have described, it sounds like the church that you are at it is even more extreme.
They did "emphasize" or some would say require that all things be done in a group until a couple reached a courtship stage. I am sure how they got to the point to where they were allowed to see each other one on one.
There were certainly couples that this group approach worked for but seemed to marry at a later than normal age. On the other hand, you didn't have to go very far to hear a number of singles complain about how bad the atmosphere was for singles. One person when he left the church shared these concerns with a pastor and the pastor claimed it worked well and there really weren't any problems. One person hearing this who had been involved in singles lay leadership stated that the pastors heard what they wanted hear. That is they only heard how good things were with the system they promoted. They failed to see and acknowledge the problems and thus make adjustments.
I think it is ludicrous to assume that just because one approach worked for some couples, it must be the correct approach for all couples. That is what type of thinking seemed to prevail there at the time. This is the same type of thinking you seem to get from Joshua Harris's book. The approach that he used worked well for him and thus it must work well for all other couples.
I am sure that a number of the people that the system didn't work for ended up leaving the church. You would also see singles (especially older singles) that had been though a lot of the extreme group teaching being scared of each other. The younger singles that weren't exposed to as extreme of teaching seemed to not be as "stand offish" about relating to singles of the opposite sex.
Though I have long left there church, I have seen and heard about a number of older adults that have never married. I always wonder is this due to there call to be single or is it due to being in an over protective system? Only God knows the answer to that.
I agree with you that it would make sense for a prospective couple to go out a number of times and see what is there. If a couple is careful to stay away from much physical contact, then after a few dates they can tell if something is there or not. That is if they are compatible and a good match.
I can't imagine having to spend months convincing the father I should be able to court his daughter before I am allowed to spend some time getting to know the single sister. It seems like one is putting the cart ahead of the horse.
I also don't see why a single brother and sister can't do something together one on one as just friends.
I have seen one church where the singles do a lot of things in groups and it provides a good way for the singles to get to know each other without having to date. They don't forbid dating as some churches due but do provide a good alternative to dating. Under this approach you aren't having to do all of your socializing through dating.
I hope this helps.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/22/2007 3:02:08 PM
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yo_marc
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I'm coming into this very very late in the game, but on this page alone, I think I'm spotting some misconceptions about the courtship style that Josh is talking about and to the extent that it should be taken. I don't have the time to post anything thorough, but I'm very interested in catching up and seeing if I can shed even a scrap of light.
For what it's worth, I'm very familiar with Josh's teachings, his church, etc. I don't think He ever intended his books to be taken as literally(?) or to the extent that they have been taken in some cases. Josh says some interesting things about his own work in some messages, which I'll try to find. :)
It's meant to be all about honoring God in all that we do. Of course He is the one that really matters, it's His relationship that should be most important to us all. Josh's books were nothing more than a -suggestion- as to how to walk this out in a relationship-forming area/time in life.
I had quite a hard time with Josh's bookS when I first read them. Glory to God for softening my heart a bit to let me see the many positives.
< Message edited by yo_marc -- 10/22/2007 3:30:16 PM >
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/22/2007 3:23:18 PM
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ladioffaith
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Read it when I was in youth ministry.
It had some pretty good ideas for young teens about not giving your heart away. Also, a really cool illustration on forgiveness, which I would later get in numerous e-mail forwards.
Very little significant input to offer a single past the age of 21.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/22/2007 10:45:18 PM
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Fredriqua
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10SNE1, I totally agree with you.
As far as "yo-marc's" comment, does it really matter what Josh Harris has said to correct misconceptions about dating and courtship? If these retractions aren't widely distributed, then his books still have a life of their own. One of my crazier college professors was fond of quoting, "Ideas have legs!"--in other words, if you write something and put it out there, you've pretty much relinquished control of the idea. It now stands on its own, often going places you never imagined or intended.
Like I said, I'm not blaming Harris for starting the whole "courtship" thing. After all, it was already being promoted in the 1970s by Bill Gothard, long before Harris was old enough to even think about girls. But Harris' influence still continues in certain segments, particularly those parents who read IKDG when it first came out...parents whose kids were little then but are now coming into young adulthood.
Unless Harris more publically recants or clarifies - such as writing another book - there are far too many Christian families who have adopted his ideas as a good system. And anytime Christians attempt to "systemize" something in order to avoid sin, that's when legalism creeps in.
I can only speak from what I've seen in the church we've been attending...which is that if a young man wants to lightheartedly socialize with a young lady alone, he is looked upon as having wrong motives. Which is just a step removed from judging him as having sin in his heart.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/22/2007 11:19:33 PM
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Geocacher301
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quote:
Like I said, I'm not blaming Harris for starting the whole "courtship" thing. After all, it was already being promoted in the 1970s by Bill Gothard, long before Harris was old enough to even think about girls. But Harris' influence still continues in certain segments, particularly those parents who read IKDG when it first came out...parents whose kids were little then but are now coming into young adulthood.
Unless Harris more publically recants or clarifies - such as writing another book - there are far too many Christian families who have adopted his ideas as a good system. And anytime Christians attempt to "systemize" something in order to avoid sin, that's when legalism creeps in.
Excellent recent discussion on the book.
Here is a URL for an online "book" that analyzes the courtship movement:
http://www.users.waitrose.com/~robinphillips/Way%20of%20a%20Man%20with%20a%20Maid.htm
The author shows the roots of it starting at least with Bill Gothard. The author also questions whether Joshua Harris can be lumped in with the other more strict groups on courtship. It is certainly some interesting reading.
It would not surprise me if many churches have applied what he taught that was suppose to be applied with "grace" and "freedom in Christ" is taught in a legalistic manner as some recently posted. As I have stated before, I am sure the natural tendency is to move to legalism here. Not all pastors seem to have the discernment to recognize this and make corrections. The online book makes mention of Harris's book possibly validating more strict courtship groups.
I am sure some of this misapplication is the result of things he didn't point out in the book and it being a quasi testimonial vs. a handbook. My biggest pet peeve is that he didn't acknowledge the problems of his system but was quick to state how bad dating was. He also doesn't make an age distinction.
I am sure the book certainly was a "fad." You can now buy the book for $1.00 plus postage on a number of book sites. That should give an indication of where it has gone.
Does any know if many churches still use and teach this? From what I have seen, I don't think it is promoted outside many groups other than the Sovereign Grace and harder line "courtship churches" referred to in the above online book.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/24/2007 12:54:16 PM
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JanAtreides
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I more or less agree. I would not sit at home waiting for a job to knock on my door. I ask God to bless all that I labor for and that includes my relationships with others.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/28/2007 5:16:28 PM
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Geocacher301
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fredriqua
quote:
As far as "yo-marc's" comment, does it really matter what Josh Harris has said to correct misconceptions about dating and courtship? If these retractions aren't widely distributed, then his books still have a life of their own. One of my crazier college professors was fond of quoting, "Ideas have legs!"--in other words, if you write something and put it out there, you've pretty much relinquished control of the idea. It now stands on its own, often going places you never imagined or intended.
Like I said, I'm not blaming Harris for starting the whole "courtship" thing. After all, it was already being promoted in the 1970s by Bill Gothard, long before Harris was old enough to even think about girls. But Harris' influence still continues in certain segments, particularly those parents who read IKDG when it first came out...parents whose kids were little then but are now coming into young adulthood.
Here is an example of this. This what Joshua Harris said in an interview:
Josh: This was never my intention but some people have taken the message of I Kissed Dating Goodbye and made it something legalistic-a set of rules. That's something that's beyond my control and it's disappointing at times
http://www.familychristian.com/books/harris_stjames.asp
I find this shocking that Joshua Harris thinks he can so easily wash his hands of this becoming legalistic in some circles. Maybe had he giving some warnings about this happening in his book maybe this would have been less likely to happen.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/2/2007 10:27:33 AM
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Fredriqua
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Geo--
I just finished reading the article you linked to in your post. What I first wondered was, when was that article written? Because, I attended a Rebecca St. James concert last year, and it was my impression that she was older than 24. (And weirdly enough, during the concert she felt the need to discuss her virginity and how she was "saving herself," which--given how old she seemed at the time--just felt a little embarrassing for her. NOT because she was pursuing purity, but because, since she seemed to be at least in her mid to late 20s, it seemed a little like a non-issue, like she was almost a Christian old maid. Like my 60-year-old aunt was up there talking about how she was fighting guys off with a stick or something. I was cringing for her, like, "Why are you advertizing this?")
Anyway, by rudimentary math (Rebecca was 24 at the time of this interview, she was 16 when her first album was released in 1994), I figured out that she's at least 29 now. So this interview was done 5 years ago.
I agree with you that I do not like either Josh OR Shannon's cavalier attitudes toward singles. It's easy for THEM to talk, you know? They're married with kids. Shannon's line about Sarah having her first child at 90 REALLY bothered me, for some reason. For a woman in her 30s who desperately wants to get married and have a family but who may have been hobbled in this dream by her adoption of the IKDG principles, trotting out an Old Testament miracle is cold comfort and shows a total lack of sensitivity.
They need to re-evaluate why there are so many older singles in their church. Certainly it can't be because God has "called" ALL of those folks to singleness. Could it be because--intentionally or not, it really makes no difference at this point--Josh's books and his artificial distinctions between dating and courtship, and all that talk about "guarding your hearts" have created a generation of people who are way too wound up about relating to the opposite sex?
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/2/2007 11:35:56 AM
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JerrynDolli
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No I've never read it. However, my husband had and was shocked I didn't.
We've meet briefly on a flight. I was working the flight as a flight attendant.
Apparently, he was observing my interaction with another passenger during the boarding process. He noticed my calm demeanor during the volatile behavior of an irate passenger confronting me. I refused t engage in an arguement and reqested the Captain to handle the situation. Though I was assigned and work First Class, after take-off the Lord moved my heart to be kind and serve this passenger in the coach section a second beverage.
My husband told me he was continously observing my behavior. When I proceeded to the rear galley, over heard the other flight attendant asked how I was able to be so calm and be patient with that irate passenger. I informed her I wasn't able in my own effort. That it was the Holy Spirit restraining me not to retaliate. He said he was happily surprised to discover I must be a Christian. In fact, he admitted that he thought I was very attractive upon boarding the flight, but it never occurred to him I might be a Christian. And I retortly asked... what does a Christian female look like? He asked if I were married and I told him no, I'm divorced. He said well I'm also a Christian. I smiled under my breath and sarcastically told him I wasn't impressed, because my adulterous ex-husband who left me for his girlfriend said he was too.
Anyway, he proceeded to ask me if he could take me to lunch or dinner. I said no because I don't date the passengers. He said it is not a date. He would like to just converse with me. Eventually I followed up on his offer and went out when I got back to my base. During lunch he told me he was interviewing me. I said for what? He said to see if she shared the same values and to make a decision if I was suited to be pursued. I informed him he could not interview me. And he said because a man that was he rights. I was amused at his bold and frank rebuttal, therefore I went along with it. Anyway, when he asked ihe could court me, I did not know what that meant. I said no. Then he said he wanted to pursue towards marriage, therefore we could have a courtship. I did not want to get married again. But, I had a girlfriend who wanted to get married. In fact, I called her to come over and join us. Hoping he would find her more interesting than me. He asked her to give him and I more time to talk. Then scolded me after she left, stating (somewhat arrogantly I thought)... 'do I look like a man who need help meeting someone?). Well, I did like his confidence, but I was not convinced about this courting thing. I said look I like you enough to date but not marry. He curtly told me no... and asked me "haven't you read I Kissed Dating GoodBye'. No and why should I ask, because I don't believe in kissing. He said no I should read it.
I never did. But, I allow him to court me and it because it was a long distance relationship, it was mostly coversation over the phone. In fact, we saw he other in person four times before marrying. He proposed to me the second time he saw me in person... I still said it was a date. The third time I saw him was our final pre-maritial counseling with my friend's husband who is an Assistant Pastor. The forth time we saw eachother was on our wedding day.
I still haven't read the book. But, apparently it encourages men to be godly gentlemen. He never spoke crass, he was always a gentleman and
did things in decency and order.
Was the original question presented to bash the book... was it to criticize the writer??? Look the book can't be so bad. We got married in 2 1/2 months and we will married seven years November 5th. I love him more today than when I first married him. And its keeps getting better.
P. S. He nor I were young... he was in this late thirties and I early forties.
< Message edited by JerrynDolli -- 11/2/2007 5:15:18 PM >
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/2/2007 2:01:50 PM
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Fredriqua
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JerrynDolli,
I can't speak for the person who started this thread umpteen years ago, but I know that I've voiced my opinions here because I think the principles of IKDG can be (and, by some groups, HAVE been) exalted to an unhealthy level. I have no desire to "bash" the book or its author, but I do believe that when a church has adopted the courtship principles across the board, you'll find all sorts of problems stemming directly from those principles...problems that are at least as serious as those that arise from "dating."
I'm glad that "courtship" worked for you. But I think your situation was very different than that of the young women who have been most affected by this book. You had life experiences and had even been married before. The gals I've known who have read this book and clung to its ideals tended to be younger and had purposed from the time they were in their early teens to NEVER date. I know some of these gals, and they are still waiting patiently for Mr. Right to show up and court them. Unfortunately, most of them lack your confidence and the self-knowledge that you had when you met your husband. Yet they and their families think that because they made the "Biblical" decision to not date, they are somehow more holy and more guaranteed of marital happiness.
Sadly, such is not always the case. "Dating" is not the problem, per se. It's the sin lurking in the dater's heart. Courtship isn't going to fix that sin. And those who derive too much security from subscribing to courtship are missing the point. And perhaps the opportunity to learn how to interact with the opposite sex and actually get married.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/2/2007 3:41:05 PM
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Fredriqua
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One more thought to JerrynDolli,
My sister and I were just having a phone conversation about this thread, and she said something quite profound, which is:
Your story is proof that the "courtship system" (as it plays out in "courtship only" churches) does NOT work.
You see, the very fact that your now-husband pursued YOU rather than some girl WITHIN the system really says something. It shows that all those girls with zero romantic experiences aren't actually as interesting as an independent divorcee just going about her business.
I mean, here you have all these gals who read the book with their parents, gals who have determined they're not going to date until Mr. Right comes along, gals who have "guarded their hearts" and have hung out at lots of women-only Bible studies and done nothing social with the opposite sex except in groups. But instead of pursuing one of those gals, your husband pursued you. It's like proof for my theory, that any guy who can get a date in the normal way will NOT bother with the whole strict system.
Of course, I'm talking about the social structure of strict courtship culture, not "purposeful dating," which I personally believe in. If IKDG helped your husband choose "purposeful dating," that's great. Unfortunately, IKDG has also spawned a Christian subculture of the scenario I just described above.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/2/2007 5:04:58 PM
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JerrynDolli
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Hi Fredriqua,
Thanks for the input. And as stated I did not read the book my husband did. However, maybe I should read it to understand your point of view more.
Yes, I a divorced person...and I was not looking to be a divorcee... my husband left me for another,therefore, committing adultery. Yet, I wonder if I did read that book before I married him would it have helped me to be obedient to God when He told me NO! Because my ex-husband said he was a Christian, I figured he would grow into a more obedient walk with God... by my example as a godly wife. Yet, God keep telling my heart no... God knows a person heart. You know, no book has all the answers but the Bible, yet books based on biblical... godly instructions can be used as tools to assist in wise decisions.
If you are married and you love your husband... well I'm sure you wouldn't want a divorce... as a god fearing woman there is no such thing as a gay... or happy divorcee. It is not a party to see your husband with another woman. However, when your faith is grounded in the Lord Jesus the Christ, He gives you a supernatural joy and peace to walk through the hurt and pain. In fact, God did not have to be so merciful with me for I married out of disobedience thinking I knew it all.
Yes, I am older than the young women you speak of. I was also older than most of them when I married the first time. In fact, because I did date prior to becoming a Christian I understand that some men do not take no at face value. Well some of the dates I went out with I had to fight off advances. If it were not for my brother living with me and being home in another room when a date brought me home... no telling what might have occurred. Then after becoming a Christian I felt secure, thinking Christian men would be different.... not disrespect a god fearing woman's wish not to kiss... or anything else. Well, guess what... I still had to be firm with a no. I did not date anyone for almost six years until I met my first husband. I told him I didn't date... (and this had nothing to do with I kiss dating good bye, I was just disappointed with all men not respecting a womans wishes). However, he keep talking about his Christian mother and how he grew up a christian and wanted to invite me to Church. Grant it the Holy Spirit was speaking to my heart.... NO! But, going by sight and outward behavior... I rationalized and said to myself he must be compassionate talking about his mother, he appears kind hearted...why not it is just church. Well, we had lunch and afterwards he informed me he wanted to go out on a real date. I told him okay. Immediately, I told him I don't kiss and I don't fornicate. He said what's that??? That should have been a clue for me. Well, he respected me and never tried to push against my wishes. So when he asked me to marry him I said yes, for I was walking by sight. The Lord again told me no. However, my soul was impressed with his self control and not trying to paw me. Our engagement was quick and married in three months. I soon discovered he married me for being a decent woman, who he believed his dying mother would like... she always wanted him to be married to a Christian woman. However, as soon as she died almost a year later, he began being unfaithful. Since, he was a head doctor... whenever I question his infidelity, he would say I'm crazier than his patients... and it was all in my mind. He made fun of my walk with the Lord... eventually he stop going to church. He only wanted to stay marry at first because of financial reason and not dividing his properties and pension.
So maybe this book is not the end all. But, there is nothing worse than a bitter broken hearted woman. It was only God's grace I've gotten over it.
It has been ten years since my divorce, yet I'm just getting over the pain of it all... though I've been married to my second husband for seven years.
With all the date rapes, woman disappearing and woman being discarded after they've been victimized. I too would be careful sending my daughters out there. Even christian men and boys try to push the envelope and go against a girls request. And the same goes for girls trying to intice boys. With all the sexual messages going on out there, it would take a matured, grounded person in Christ Jesus, not to get pull into participating. In this feel good climate... the best way to avoid getting entangle is to wait. If they do date... then make sure it is done in the open. It bother my ex-husband I would not allow him into my home. But, I did not what anything to happen because I was attracted to him. I had to guard my testimony and walk. This present husband honor that request and I do think it because of the book he read.
And by the way my present husband told me prayed the previous year before marrying to the Lord about getting married. He did look within the church he was attending... He is the male... therefore responsible to find a wife. He was looking for someone who display a godly character and practice a lifestyle. Something I should have required in my firstmarriage. I was surprised when he told me that men are not the only ones who compromised in the area of sexual purity, that he had to rebuke a few christian females he ask questions concerning their walk about what they believed about premaritial sex. I told him up front what I believed before he had a chance to inquired... and that was the first thing that impressed him.... the rest is history.
And by the way, I married by husband because I inquired of the Lord. As I stated this in the forum: 'Did You Marry Your Type?' I said Nope. He was not my type. My marrying my spouse had nothing to do with maturity... it was out of obedience. After being emotionally abused the last time in a marriage that look like a fairytale on the outside. You know married to a doctor, driving fancy cars, big house, wearing beautiful clothes, keeping up the appearance for his ego... absent the love, just being arm candy. You better believe I count it all joy to be equally yoked with a man with simple faith and who was willing to practice whatever he learned in that book, which I purpose to read.
Thanks again Fredriqua.
In Christ Jesus,
~Dolli  
quote:
Nope...
My protype is usually what one may call nerdy. I never realize that husband was my type until after much conversation. I stereotyped, I'm ashame to say. It has been my assumption and out of ignorance, believing anyone handsome and pleasing to the eyegate... was dumb,loud, womanizing and unspiritual. Wow , I am ashamed to admit to such shallow, foolish thinking. However, that was many years ago. In fact, I assumed my first husband was godly because he was quiet, intellectually and scholastically brilliant, and physically ordinary in looks. Because he was quiet I thought or assumed he was always reflecting and spending time thinking upon the things of god in silence. Wow was I deceived. I just posted in another forum that God looks on the inward man of the heart.
I was no worse at the time than the female who made that post on her attraction for her pastor. Where she was in awe of his good looks, I during that season of my life was in awe of my ex husbands intelligence and unattractiveness.
My present husband is very handsome and I wasn't aware of it until our actual wedding date. I began to love him after conversing with him on the phone talking about our love for the Lord and what we wanted to do for Him. We meet in person on a short flight, but stayed in touch communicating over the phone long distance. I only saw him for very few minutes, because as much as I talk , I'm really shy in the presence of the opposite sex. Being a flight attendant I come in contact with many individuals. Therefore, I never look at men in their eyes, for I don't want them to think I'm flirting. I'm not rude, just professional. Nevertheless, that was the reason I really did not get a chance to observe him. I just focus upon the man's forehead when I speak with them, to give the impression I'm looking at them and not ignoring them.
So spiritually, emotionally, intellectually and socially he was perfectly packaged for me. I did not care how he looked, in fact I really couldn't remember how he looked. Turned out on my wedding day this man look like a model. If I went by his looks, and paid attention on his looks that day of meeting him... well I wouldn't give him the time of day. Thank God for not allowing me revert to shallow prejudices.
When I said yes to his proposal , I did so out of obedience to God, after asking God who he was. Trusting God I was walking in His will. We got married... I think 2 1/2 months. It has been seven years now. And I love him more today, than seven years ago.
Yes, my ex was my proto type. He rejected me and left me for another. But what satan meant for evil in breaking my heart, God turn things around for my good. God gave me to another who wasn't my
proto-type. I feel like Abigail... Nabal did not recognize the ruby of a wife he had and God's man David saw her worth and married her.
And I'm grateful, this husband considered my worth above rubies.
I am now equally yoked in the Spirit. We both have a passion for the Lord and people. We both are extroverted... yep, though shy... I'm an extrovert. We both have a love for evangelizing, people, golf, tennis, chess (and he can beat me at it ... my ex couldn't), we enjoy looking at God's creation, dining, etc. We are different, in that I'm unorganized and sponetaneous. He is organized and structured. We balance each other out and life is never boring.
Yep, I married God's type for me. God knows what is better for us than we do for ourselves. Let God choose your mate... hopefully, you'll not be disappointed.
< Message edited by JerrynDolli -- 11/2/2007 5:36:04 PM >
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/2/2007 5:47:49 PM
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Fredriqua
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Dolli,
I really like your thoughtful reply. I'm afraid, though, that you misunderstood my comment about you being a "divorcee." It was absolutely NOTHING against your divorce (like I was judging you or something...I wasn't!). Rather, I was just pointing out that it's interesting that of all the gals your husband could have chosen to pursue, he chose you.
In the meantime, at least in the church where we've been going, there would be a couple dozen single gals who have all read IKDG and have sworn to do courtship according to the "rules"--yet men like your husband don't find them interesting. They don't pursue these gals who are living at home and waiting for them to approach their fathers. Rather, they seek out women who defy this stereotype.
Perhaps we are reacting to two totally different outcomes to the book. You like the results of the book in your husband's life, because it led him to "purposeful dating." I, on the other hand, am decrying what I see as a rigid system that has developed among parents and their young adult children because of this book. In my church, Josh Harris is their practically untouchable hero, and IKDG (along with "Boy Meets Girl") is their manifesto guaranteeing sexual purity and a happy golden marriage.
Just the other week, the pastor distributed a 10-page set of "guidelines" for fathers who are considering courtship for their daughters. Some of the guidelines were nothing short of bizarre...one of them, addressed to young men, said, "Treat her [the potential object of a courtship] as a sister until after her father has told her of your intentions, so that she can be surprised!"
How messed up is that?? Like somehow, these young ladies are so emotionally removed and detached from their potential husbands that they are able to be "fooled" by brotherly behavior until the big announcement?
It's as though romance and marriage have been turned into a businesslike pursuit, devoid of human emotions on the girl's part...all in the misguided interest of "guarding her heart."
But again...I'm glad the book worked for you! Truly! I'm just sad for all the girls I know who will probably end up being some of those "older singles" that Josh Harris and his wife apparently "minister" to.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/2/2007 5:51:42 PM
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stellaluna
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I don't even like the phrase "guarding your heart." At all.
quote:
They need to re-evaluate why there are so many older singles in their church. Certainly it can't be because God has "called" ALL of those folks to singleness. Could it be because--intentionally or not, it really makes no difference at this point--Josh's books and his artificial distinctions between dating and courtship, and all that talk about "guarding your hearts" have created a generation of people who are way too wound up about relating to the opposite sex?
Mmm hmm.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/2/2007 6:17:27 PM
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Fredriqua
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And Dolli, here's one more thought--actually, my whole point--
Every time a guy who has decided to "do courtship" pursues a girl who is NOT a convert to the courtship system (like yourself), that just shrinks down the pool of eligible guys even more, leaving the poor courtship girls even fewer opportunities.
And it's still my contention that the system is totally stacked in favor of the guys to begin with. I've seen a lot of cases of guys "marrying up" through the system, while there are a lot of "plain jane" type girls who, although only in their early 20s, already have "old maid" written all over their faces. There simply aren't a lot of guys willing to jump through those horribly uncomfortable hoops to spend time with them in a big heavy marriage-minded atmosphere.
Yet courtship is taught as being "more spiritual" than chaste dating.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/2/2007 6:44:56 PM
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JerrynDolli
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Hi Fredriqua.
I sorry to read you feel this takes place: quote:
I've seen a lot of cases of guys "marrying up" through the system, while there are a lot of "plain jane" type girls who, although only in their early 20s, already have "old maid" written all over their faces. There simply aren't a lot of guys willing to jump through those horribly uncomfortable hoops to spend time with them in a big heavy marriage-minded atmosphere
If a man think we're not worth pursuing then I would rather stay single. I hope we're all worth waiting for. I refused to compromise many of dateless nights, just to be with a man even when I was a non christian.
Are you single? There are many of attractive women in the Body of Christ...inwardly and outwardly. Why does your post sound angry? I'm I reading more into it than I should?
And by the way I wasn't as you stated in this post: quote:
It shows that all those girls with zero romantic experiences aren't actually as interesting as an independent divorcee just going about her business.
I was very dependent and still is on the Lords leading. For me to stay within the boundaries of not dating during my first husband's separation from me... though asked out and being told it was legal by state law to date during separation from spouse, meant I was very dependent on God's percept and His will. Being independent would have meant me dating others, while my husband at the time was dating another. No my friend I wasn't independent at all... but, dependent on Jesus. In fact, it was during my singlehood... during my first husbands dating me I was independent. For if had I been dependent on the Lord I would have obeyed and followed His heeding and not married him.
You've not walked in my shoes, nor do I know your walk. I don't want to assume anything I desire to know. I'm willing to read your post to understand why you think the way you do.
Agape,
In Christ Jesus
~Dolli
< Message edited by JerrynDolli -- 11/2/2007 7:07:19 PM >
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Jesus/HolySpirit Help!
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Obey!
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=79265c34a405dbc928e3
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 11/2/2007 6:59:50 PM
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JerrynDolli
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...parental peer pressure so to speak! 
IKDG is just one of a long list of questionable books ( Prayer of Jabez, Wild at Heart) which have become the "this-book-changed-my-life" of the year simply because James Dobson gave it his blessing. 
