RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (Full Version)

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big-bri -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/24/2006 6:54:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Shouldn't one be more concerned that people are calling for the murder of children in the name of Christ? The character and motives of those who claim Christ and champion abortion(Murder) is put into question by their own words and deeds...

Ask the mods . . . they are the ones who enforce the TOS.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/24/2006 10:23:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmax

Is it possible for a Christian to be pro-abortion? Sure, but only if they haven't studied what scripture says on the subject. If they have, and merely turn from the clear teaching of scripture, then they are either in sin, or not saved.


The majority of those on this site who claim Christ and support abortion argue the point in the fact of clear evidence...

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/24/2006 10:25:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: big-bri

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Shouldn't one be more concerned that people are calling for the murder of children in the name of Christ? The character and motives of those who claim Christ and champion abortion(Murder) is put into question by their own words and deeds...

Ask the mods . . . they are the ones who enforce the TOS.


Since the statement is no directed at a person I feel that's the reason it's still an active thread... Though I won't be surprised is someone who claims Christ and supports the murder of the unborn complains and it becomes an issue...

John



revdrew -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/24/2006 10:29:41 PM)

Pro-abortion? No. But very few people are actually in favor of abortions.

Many Christians are pro-abortion-being-legal, however. I see rules regarding abortion like the rules we have regarding war.

War, like abortion, should never happen, but we realize that in our sinful world, both will occur, regardless of the laws.

Both of these are amazingly devastating, and some people have said that niether should be condoned under any circumstance.

Others, on the other hand, draft laws that attempt to maintain some level of safety or control on said practices.

Are those people pro-abortion? Only sick people want abortions to happen (and I know there are a few sick people in this world).



SovereignIsHe -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/24/2006 10:55:57 PM)

quote:


Pro-abortion? No. But very few people are actually in favor of abortions.



If you're not pro-life you're pro-abortion...In fact you sanction murder. The word game is a farce...

quote:


Many Christians are pro-abortion-being-legal, however. I see rules regarding abortion like the rules we have regarding war.


Do these Christians having any biblical ground to stand on with their support for abortion, the unlawful taking of life?

quote:


War, like abortion, should never happen, but we realize that in our sinful world, both will occur, regardless of the laws. Both of these are amazingly devastating, and some people have said that niether should be condoned under any circumstance.


What is the connection between abortion and war?

quote:


Are those people pro-abortion? Only sick people want abortions to happen (and I know there are a few sick people in this world).


Pro-choice, pro-abortion, both groups sanction murder...

John



GraduateMom -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/24/2006 11:51:40 PM)

As a Christian I would only condone abortion to save the life of the mother, this is similar to self-defense not being considered murder.

What amazes me is that there are people who say they are Christians who condone abortion for rape and incest. If the woman is pregnant with a human life then abortion is murder and shouldn’t be allowed. If the woman is pregnant but it isn’t a human life then no abortions are murder and should be allowed. (Please note: I believe that life begins at conception. I’m only pointing out an inconsistency within some people’s thinking regarding abortion.)

I think some Christians empathize so much with the woman who has suffered through the trauma of rape or incest that they forget that an abortion doesn’t undo the evil act committed on them. I personally can’t imagine what it would be like to be pregnant as a result of such a violent attack. I pray that if it should ever happen to any women in my family or that I know that I would stand strong in the Lord and advise her to trust God and carry the baby to term.



2Timothy42 -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 12:05:56 AM)

It puzzles me to hear this constant drum beat of "Well it will hapen anyway so lets at least establish some rules and saftey measures." It usually comes from one particular side of politics. Let us try to apply that to some issues and see how it works:

Battered Women- Men are going to do it anyway so lets at least pass some laws on it and make it legal so they are not doinf it in back alleys. We can set up centers that men can bring their women to and make sure they do it safely. No hitting below the belt. No instruments can be used blunt or sharp. No stiking the woman more than 20 times. Make sure she has immediate medical attention. Make sure the man has counseling as to his options before he begins.

Well I was going to use a couple more but this one works well all by itself. The point is it should never happen and it is insane to make allowances for it.



LorenMichael -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 12:21:35 AM)

being "pro-abortion" is like being pro-amputation. no one wants to do it, and no one looks forward to it, and it's something you miss for the rest of your life, but some people feel that it's necessary. "pro-abortion" is a misnomer.



GraduateMom -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 12:26:05 AM)

Whether we call it pro-abortion, pro-choice or choosing the lessor of two evils, if a woman is pregnant with a human being, it is difficult to understand how a Christian could condone, approve or allow the action.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 12:33:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GraduateMom

As a Christian I would only condone abortion to save the life of the mother, this is similar to self-defense not being considered murder.


For it to be like self-defense the child would have to be equated to someone wishing to harm with malicious intent...

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 12:35:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LorenMichael

being "pro-abortion" is like being pro-amputation. no one wants to do it, and no one looks forward to it, and it's something you miss for the rest of your life, but some people feel that it's necessary. "pro-abortion" is a misnomer.


Correct, it should be pro-murder...

John



GraduateMom -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 12:45:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: GraduateMom

As a Christian I would only condone abortion to save the life of the mother, this is similar to self-defense not being considered murder.


For it to be like self-defense the child would have to be equated to someone wishing to harm with malicious intent...

John


Similar not identical, but I get your point. I don't know that had I been in the position of having my doctor tell me I would die if I continued my pregnancy that I could have chosen to kill my child. But if one or both are to die, then I would not consider the killing of the child murder any more than I would consider that the child murdered the mother if the woman died because she continued the pregnancy.



LorenMichael -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 1:09:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: LorenMichael

being "pro-abortion" is like being pro-amputation. no one wants to do it, and no one looks forward to it, and it's something you miss for the rest of your life, but some people feel that it's necessary. "pro-abortion" is a misnomer.


Correct, it should be pro-murder...

John


cute, but you ignore the point.



sreno7 -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 1:46:45 AM)

I don't think anyone is "calling for the murder" of babies or children. I think though that most right wing conservatives consider the unborn child more valuable than the living mother and don't do anything to support the women after they have the babies that no one wants them to abort.
I am christian and you will throw stones at me but if I were to get pregnant my life would be at risk and I would have an abortion to be here to raise the living children I already have. It is not that I dont' care but I have already weighed it out in my mind.



Karen1776 -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 2:29:53 AM)

sreno7

quote:

I don't think anyone is "calling for the murder" of babies or children. I think though
that most right wing conservatives consider the unborn child more valuable than the living
mother


I believe the 'mother' of birth control and abortion wanted just that because
of her philosophy of eugenics.

quote:

and don't do anything to support the women after they have the babies that no
one wants them to abort.


1) It's not 'their' baby to support,
it's the two parents of the baby,
so why do 'you' assume to bring 'them' into it?
It's a false arguement.

2) Wouldn't it be more efficient (if that will move you) to not get pregnant?
If both parties use birth control it's highly unlikely that a pregnancy will occur.

3) I worked many years as a family support officer and most 'unwanted'(?)
pregnancies occur because 'sloppy' or 'no' birth control was used & by only
one of the partners. (often under the influence of drugs)

>Many men are proud of the number of pregnancies they cause (it displays
their manhood) and they never had any intention of supporting the babies.
(though baboons have babies so I don't understand what it has to do with manhood)
How the mothers could miss their attitude is beyond me.

>Unwanted babies seem to run in families so maybe it's a genetic problem.

>In over 50% of the cases there is a man living in the house.

>In a large percentage of the cases it is definately not a one time thing.



GraduateMom -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 2:33:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sreno7

I don't think anyone is "calling for the murder" of babies or children. I think though that most right wing conservatives consider the unborn child more valuable than the living mother and don't do anything to support the women after they have the babies that no one wants them to abort.
I am christian and you will throw stones at me but if I were to get pregnant my life would be at risk and I would have an abortion to be here to raise the living children I already have. It is not that I dont' care but I have already weighed it out in my mind.


I understand the point you are making. However, while it is probably “right wing conservatives” who tend to be "pro-life" and probably “left wing liberals” who tend to be “pro-choice”. I would think we might be better able to understand each others views if we look at it from a Christian perspective, rather than a political perspective. I for one as a “pro-life” Christian consider pro-life to include what happens to the child, the mother and the family after birth as well as during the pregnancy.

As pro-life I don’t see the child as more valuable than the mother, but I do see that with an abortion someone dies, without an abortion usually no one dies. (Yes, I know there are exceptions - and I do think the life of the mother should be taken into consideration.)



SonInMe1 -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 7:23:02 AM)

I would consider my church conservative and we support Crisis pregnancy centers.

War and abortion are not simular at all. War can accomplish peace. Abortion never does.

Since I believe the vast majority of pregnancies that threaten the mother's life are not viable anyways, I would support abortion when it threatens the mother's life. Any other abortion is just the killing for convienence.

The blood from abortions stains deeply. It cannot be supported by a christian. Keeping abortion legal is the same as supporting the Pharoh and Herrod when they slaughtered babies who threatened their rule. Convienence. As a representative government these laws color us all with sin.



big-bri -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 9:39:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Since I believe the vast majority of pregnancies that threaten the mother's life are not viable anyways, I would support abortion when it threatens the mother's life. Any other abortion is just the killing for convienence.

Not that I necessarily disagree, but how do you draw this line from a Christian perspective- seeing as how that is the topic of this thread- and/or see it as compatible with Christianity?

quote:

The blood from abortions stains deeply. It cannot be supported by a christian.

But you "exception" can be, correct?



ctipton -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 10:21:15 AM)

quote:

I would support abortion when it threatens the mother's life. Any other abortion is just the killing for convienence.
I believe Reagan made the same distinction, arguing self-defense.



big-bri -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 10:25:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ctipton
I believe Reagan made the same distinction, arguing self-defense.

Pleading from authority, eh?
Do you have any scripture to support the "self-defense" defense?



ctipton -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 10:37:19 AM)

Um, I mentioned that I recall a well-known person using the same argument. I did not attest to anything else. I did not claim that it was my view or that I was defending it. I am not pleading from authority or pleading at all. I thought it might interest some people.

It might help if you take what I read as what I mean and not try to add to it.



big-bri -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 10:50:21 AM)

Sorry, ct: my old, trick knee jerked again . . .



SovereignIsHe -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 1:08:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GraduateMom

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: GraduateMom

As a Christian I would only condone abortion to save the life of the mother, this is similar to self-defense not being considered murder.


For it to be like self-defense the child would have to be equated to someone wishing to harm with malicious intent...

John


Similar not identical, but I get your point. I don't know that had I been in the position of having my doctor tell me I would die if I continued my pregnancy that I could have chosen to kill my child. But if one or both are to die, then I would not consider the killing of the child murder any more than I would consider that the child murdered the mother if the woman died because she continued the pregnancy.


Take the situation out of the womb.... I believe a mother, or father for that matter would be expected to lay their life down for their children, correct?

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 1:10:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LorenMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: LorenMichael

being "pro-abortion" is like being pro-amputation. no one wants to do it, and no one looks forward to it, and it's something you miss for the rest of your life, but some people feel that it's necessary. "pro-abortion" is a misnomer.


Correct, it should be pro-murder...

John


cute, but you ignore the point.


What point are you referring too? The labeling on this issue is just a game to make folks feel better for being in support of murder...

John



SovereignIsHe -> RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? (12/25/2006 1:16:39 PM)

quote:


I don't think anyone is "calling for the murder" of babies or children.


Watch about a minute of a NOW rally...

quote:


I think though that most right wing conservatives consider the unborn child more valuable than the living mother and don't do anything to support the women after they have the babies that no one wants them to abort.


Me thinks this is the common excuse given by folks who support the murder of the unborn. Btw... Even if the above were true it wouldn't be a viable excuse for murder...

quote:


I am christian and you will throw stones at me but if I were to get pregnant my life would be at risk and I would have an abortion to be here to raise the living children I already have. It is not that I dont' care but I have already weighed it out in my mind.


With that mind would it be ok for the mother to kill her other children outside the womb in order to survive, and if not why?

It would seem that some here valuable than the living mother over the unborn(does that mean they are less alive than the living mother????) child.

John



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