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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/23/2007 3:51:08 PM
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tacitus
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I think the pro-life thesis that all abortion is murder stands on shaky ground when it comes to deciding what punishment should be meted out to the mother should abortion be made illegal. At the very least she would be an accessory to murder, (and likely more than that) and yet few pro-lifers will go on record to say that the mother should receive any punishment beyond a slap on the wrist. The claim is usually that the mother was duped into having the abortion, and yet I have never seen the same latitude extended to mothers of babies or toddlers who were complicit in their deaths.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/23/2007 8:03:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
John, I think you are talking in circles or may be I'm getting lost between posts. One cannot claim in one instance that all are guilty of sin and there is no innocent, yet claim innocence for those murdered.
When one is speaking of the temporal and the eternal you can... In God's eyes mankind is guilty(the fall of man took care of that, let alone our own personal sin), YET that doesn't mean man is guilty of a crime in the temporal sense...
Example... Today I sinned against God... I am guilty of a sin against God... Yet, if I were to be murdered(my life unjustly taken), that would be the taking of innocent life in the sense I have done nothing to warrant my life being taken away...(i.e. murder, or attemping to murder someone who in the process of defending themselves killed me...)
quote:
The point behind innocence in the temporal sense is that the injured had done nothing directly to suffer the punished received. Murder is an example stated again and again during this discussion. The case is trying to be made that all abortion is murder. That has been refuted.
Ok... For the sake of clarity what are the JUST reasons for aboriton(the taking of innocent life, innocent in the sense that the life being taken has done nothing to warrant its life to be taken)
quote:
An interesting point about murder is that the perpetrator has to plan and lay in wait, etc. to do harm. Though I can understand how we can arrive at that point when looking at a mother, doctor, and hospital staff when it comes to abortion, I'm not sure that is the case.
The bible says murder is the unjust taking of life... The death of the child is not the by-product of abortion but the direct result and the child is the target....
quote:
What I think doesn't fit is the mother intentionally getting pregnant so that she can have an abortion. I wonder if abortion is manslaughter?
Any abortion to hide sin(adultery or fornication) is surely murder... Abortion as after the fact birth control is such a lack of regard for life that I believe it is murder.... Abortion in the case of rape... More than likely, a form of vengence against the rapist aimed at the child... If we take the words of Christ in Matt 5 that would also reach the level of murder, since God says vengence is His... In the case of the life of the mother... Not murder, though what mother wouldn't lay down her life for her child?
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/23/2007 8:05:53 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3808
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
I think the pro-life thesis that all abortion is murder stands on shaky ground when it comes to deciding what punishment should be meted out to the mother should abortion be made illegal. At the very least she would be an accessory to murder, (and likely more than that) and yet few pro-lifers will go on record to say that the mother should receive any punishment beyond a slap on the wrist. The claim is usually that the mother was duped into having the abortion, and yet I have never seen the same latitude extended to mothers of babies or toddlers who were complicit in their deaths.
Abortion many times is much the same as murder for hire....
A mobster hires a hitman to take care of a witness to a crime...
A woman hires an abortion doctor to rid herself of the witness(the child) of a sin...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/24/2007 1:50:07 AM
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KingsFool
Posts: 237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
John, I think you are talking in circles or may be I'm getting lost between posts. One cannot claim in one instance that all are guilty of sin and there is no innocent, yet claim innocence for those murdered.
When one is speaking of the temporal and the eternal you can... In God's eyes mankind is guilty(the fall of man took care of that, let alone our own personal sin), YET that doesn't mean man is guilty of a crime in the temporal sense...
Example... Today I sinned against God... I am guilty of a sin against God... Yet, if I were to be murdered(my life unjustly taken), that would be the taking of innocent life in the sense I have done nothing to warrant my life being taken away...(i.e. murder, or attemping to murder someone who in the process of defending themselves killed me...)
quote:
The point behind innocence in the temporal sense is that the injured had done nothing directly to suffer the punished received. Murder is an example stated again and again during this discussion. The case is trying to be made that all abortion is murder. That has been refuted.
Ok... For the sake of clarity what are the JUST reasons for aboriton(the taking of innocent life, innocent in the sense that the life being taken has done nothing to warrant its life to be taken)
quote:
An interesting point about murder is that the perpetrator has to plan and lay in wait, etc. to do harm. Though I can understand how we can arrive at that point when looking at a mother, doctor, and hospital staff when it comes to abortion, I'm not sure that is the case.
The bible says murder is the unjust taking of life... The death of the child is not the by-product of abortion but the direct result and the child is the target....
quote:
What I think doesn't fit is the mother intentionally getting pregnant so that she can have an abortion. I wonder if abortion is manslaughter?
Any abortion to hide sin(adultery or fornication) is surely murder... Abortion as after the fact birth control is such a lack of regard for life that I believe it is murder.... Abortion in the case of rape... More than likely, a form of vengence against the rapist aimed at the child... If we take the words of Christ in Matt 5 that would also reach the level of murder, since God says vengence is His... In the case of the life of the mother... Not murder, though what mother wouldn't lay down her life for her child?
John
Abortion is not alway murder. This position takes us back to my original question. Under this definition any kind of pregnancy termination is murder. Stated another way, the death of any human by another human is always murder.
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/24/2007 2:00:59 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3808
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
John, I think you are talking in circles or may be I'm getting lost between posts. One cannot claim in one instance that all are guilty of sin and there is no innocent, yet claim innocence for those murdered.
When one is speaking of the temporal and the eternal you can... In God's eyes mankind is guilty(the fall of man took care of that, let alone our own personal sin), YET that doesn't mean man is guilty of a crime in the temporal sense...
Example... Today I sinned against God... I am guilty of a sin against God... Yet, if I were to be murdered(my life unjustly taken), that would be the taking of innocent life in the sense I have done nothing to warrant my life being taken away...(i.e. murder, or attemping to murder someone who in the process of defending themselves killed me...)
quote:
The point behind innocence in the temporal sense is that the injured had done nothing directly to suffer the punished received. Murder is an example stated again and again during this discussion. The case is trying to be made that all abortion is murder. That has been refuted.
Ok... For the sake of clarity what are the JUST reasons for aboriton(the taking of innocent life, innocent in the sense that the life being taken has done nothing to warrant its life to be taken)
quote:
An interesting point about murder is that the perpetrator has to plan and lay in wait, etc. to do harm. Though I can understand how we can arrive at that point when looking at a mother, doctor, and hospital staff when it comes to abortion, I'm not sure that is the case.
The bible says murder is the unjust taking of life... The death of the child is not the by-product of abortion but the direct result and the child is the target....
quote:
What I think doesn't fit is the mother intentionally getting pregnant so that she can have an abortion. I wonder if abortion is manslaughter?
Any abortion to hide sin(adultery or fornication) is surely murder... Abortion as after the fact birth control is such a lack of regard for life that I believe it is murder.... Abortion in the case of rape... More than likely, a form of vengence against the rapist aimed at the child... If we take the words of Christ in Matt 5 that would also reach the level of murder, since God says vengence is His... In the case of the life of the mother... Not murder, though what mother wouldn't lay down her life for her child?
John
Abortion is not alway murder.
Granted...
So here is where you tell me what are just causes for abortion...
I'll repost me view...
Any abortion to hide sin(adultery or fornication) is surely murder... Abortion as after the fact birth control is such a lack of regard for life that I believe it is murder.... Abortion in the case of rape... More than likely, a form of vengence against the rapist aimed at the child... If we take the words of Christ in Matt 5 that would also reach the level of murder, since God says vengence is His... In the case of the life of the mother... Not murder, though what mother wouldn't lay down her life for her child?
Your thoughts?
As well, I asked in the post...
Ok... For the sake of clarity what are the JUST reasons for aboriton(the taking of innocent life, innocent in the sense that the life being taken has done nothing to warrant its life to be taken)
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/24/2007 3:21:53 PM
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KingsFool
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quote:
Your thoughts?
As well, I asked in the post...
Ok... For the sake of clarity what are the JUST reasons for aboriton(the taking of innocent life, innocent in the sense that the life being taken has done nothing to warrant its life to be taken)
John
Murder is the pretermination to willfully kill someone for some gain. I think abortion can sometimes fall into this category, but not as much as some folks think. For instance, who would purposely get pregnant to kill a baby? I don't anyone would or very few. Abortion and murder are not the same thing.
I think the pro-life folks seperate the decision making process, that is does one get an abortion, from the cause of an abortion, conception. In other words, a woman concieves so that she may abort the child. That is clearly murder. To say that all abortion is murder? I'm not sure about that.
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/24/2007 4:02:43 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
Murder is the pretermination to willfully kill someone for some gain. I think abortion can sometimes fall into this category, but not as much as some folks think. For instance, who would purposely get pregnant to kill a baby? I don't anyone would or very few. Abortion and murder are not the same thing.
I think the pro-life folks seperate the decision making process, that is does one get an abortion, from the cause of an abortion, conception. In other words, a woman concieves so that she may abort the child. That is clearly murder. To say that all abortion is murder? I'm not sure about that.
KF
I am also not convinced that ALL abortion is murder. But I do believe that many abortions are done for the sake of convenience. In other words, the mother is not married or is very young or is a professional who does not want a pregnancy to interfere with her career.
How is an abortion for the sake of convenience any different that one spouse killing the other for the convenience of a large inheritance, or insurance policy, or a new lover, or some other circumstance standing in the way of happiness? Aren't they both premeditated murder? If not, how are they different?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/24/2007 5:28:53 PM
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tacitus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Abortion many times is much the same as murder for hire....
A mobster hires a hitman to take care of a witness to a crime...
A woman hires an abortion doctor to rid herself of the witness(the child) of a sin...
You missed my point.
The mobster is convicted of murder, and goes to jail or the chair if caught.
If abortion is made illegal? According to every pro-lifer I've ever met or heard on this subject, the woman walks every time.
And what about the morning-after pill, or RU-486? No accomplices there (beyond an illegal supplier).
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/24/2007 6:48:52 PM
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ctipton
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I am not as concerned about the sentence as I am about the open season for the pre-born.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/24/2007 7:01:50 PM
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lilyofthefield
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Obviously figuring out the legal consequences if abortion was made illegal would be an immense challenge. That doesn't justify keeping it legal. There has to be a better reason for something being legal than not knowing what to do with an offender.
_____________________________
Caden is here!
A boy is Truth with dirt on its face, Beauty with a cut on its finger, Wisdom with bubble gum in its hair and the Hope of the future with a frog in its pocket. - Alan Beck
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/24/2007 7:40:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
Murder is the pretermination to willfully kill someone for some gain.
Your basis for this?
quote:
I think abortion can sometimes fall into this category, but not as much as some folks think. For instance, who would purposely get pregnant to kill a baby? I don't anyone would or very few. Abortion and murder are not the same thing.
What is the justification for taking life regarding abortion? Justification being a biblical reason to take life...
quote:
I think the pro-life folks seperate the decision making process, that is does one get an abortion, from the cause of an abortion, conception. In other words, a woman concieves so that she may abort the child. That is clearly murder. To say that all abortion is murder? I'm not sure about that.
If a woman killed her five month old child beause she no longer wanted it would be called murder.... If she kills the child in her womb of five months it's not... Double standard...
If not murder what is the taking of life via the common methods used in aboritons?
The bible grants the state to take life of those justly accused
The bible grant the individual the right to defend themselves and to take life if their life is threatened...
Where does abortion fit?
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/24/2007 7:41:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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Anyone...
For the sake of clarity what are the JUST reasons for aboriton(the taking of innocent life, innocent in the sense that the life being taken has done nothing to warrant its life to be taken) Just in the biblical sense...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/24/2007 7:44:17 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Abortion many times is much the same as murder for hire....
A mobster hires a hitman to take care of a witness to a crime...
A woman hires an abortion doctor to rid herself of the witness(the child) of a sin...
You missed my point.
The mobster is convicted of murder, and goes to jail or the chair if caught.
If abortion is made illegal? According to every pro-lifer I've ever met or heard on this subject, the woman walks every time.
And what about the morning-after pill, or RU-486? No accomplices there (beyond an illegal supplier).
Every pro-lifer you've met is a hypocrite... Can't convict the mobster and allow the woman to walk... That's injustice...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 8:27:09 AM
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rhippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
Murder is the pretermination to willfully kill someone for some gain.
Given this statement then , imo, every abortion equates to murder since it is the deliberate predetermination to kill someone. In the matter of abortion the victim is a defenseless child.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
For instance, who would purposely get pregnant to kill a baby? I don't anyone would or very few. Abortion and murder are not the same thing.
I think the pro-life folks seperate the decision making process, that is does one get an abortion, from the cause of an abortion, conception. In other words, a woman concieves so that she may abort the child. That is clearly murder. To say that all abortion is murder? I'm not sure about that.
KF
As for the absurd notion that abortion is only murder if the woman purposely gets pregnant in order to abort the child.........that argument is so ridiculous it doesn't even deserve a response!!
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 8:30:25 AM
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rhippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Anyone...
For the sake of clarity what are the JUST reasons for aboriton(the taking of innocent life, innocent in the sense that the life being taken has done nothing to warrant its life to be taken) Just in the biblical sense...
John
In my opinion when it comes to abortion the only JUST reason would be that the mother would die if the child were carried to term. It becomes a form of self-defense
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 4:15:11 PM
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KingsFool
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
Murder is the pretermination to willfully kill someone for some gain.
Given this statement then , imo, every abortion equates to murder since it is the deliberate predetermination to kill someone. In the matter of abortion the victim is a defenseless child.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
For instance, who would purposely get pregnant to kill a baby? I don't anyone would or very few. Abortion and murder are not the same thing.
I think the pro-life folks seperate the decision making process, that is does one get an abortion, from the cause of an abortion, conception. In other words, a woman concieves so that she may abort the child. That is clearly murder. To say that all abortion is murder? I'm not sure about that.
KF
As for the absurd notion that abortion is only murder if the woman purposely gets pregnant in order to abort the child.........that argument is so ridiculous it doesn't even deserve a response!!
And yet here we are. An abortion cannot happen w/o pregnancy. That is not absurd, that is a fact. The two things are directly connected. Murder is not always an abortion, therefore, pregnancy is not required to commit a murder. The first objection that comes to my mind is "Wait all people are born, how can you say that pregnancy is not involved?" We don't say Timothy McVae aborted all those people in the Federal Building in Okie City. We say he murdered them. Why? Because abortion is directly connected to pregnancy.
I think to convict a woman of muder because she aborted her unborn child, she would have to have gotten pregnant on purpose to perpatrate the crime.
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 4:19:00 PM
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KingsFool
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Anyone...
For the sake of clarity what are the JUST reasons for aboriton(the taking of innocent life, innocent in the sense that the life being taken has done nothing to warrant its life to be taken) Just in the biblical sense...
John
In my opinion when it comes to abortion the only JUST reason would be that the mother would die if the child were carried to term. It becomes a form of self-defense
A form of self defense. I think this is the real debate. When is the woman allowed to defend herself against invasion?
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 4:20:32 PM
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another-anonymous
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If abortion is always murder then tell me why anti-abortion activists are so against contraception being widely available; the day-after pill; and why are they so against govt programs that help unwed mothers economically?
Shouldn't those who adamently oppose abortion support these things?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 4:30:20 PM
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KingsFool
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quote:
ORIGINAL: another-anonymous
If abortion is always murder then tell me why anti-abortion activists are so against contraception being widely available; the day-after pill; and why are they so against govt programs that help unwed mothers economically?
Shouldn't those who adamently oppose abortion support these things?
This is slightly different angle on the problem. I wonder how much trouble we Christians are going to have with God. Not whether or not we voted pro-life or not, but why we didn't do more to help those who are considering abortion. I think through the dozen or so town I drive through, I've seen only one bill board which encourages mothers not only to keep their babies, but to call them for help.
In my opinion, the Church (which includes me) has forgotten how to help in these situations. I can remember many years ago when a brochure arrived in my mail box advertising a Christian Adoption agency. I thought this a really good idea and called them up to donate money. They were an agency for hire. They charged for their services. Big bucks too. Regardless, they connected unwed mothers with families looking to adopt.
This is were we should be working. In support, not punishment.
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 4:36:44 PM
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tacitus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Every pro-lifer you've met is a hypocrite... Can't convict the mobster and allow the woman to walk... That's injustice...
John
I believe this is the first time I've seen someone expressing that sentiment on this board. That certainly puts you out on a limb with respect to other pro-lifers on this board, however sound your reasoning may be.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 4:37:50 PM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: another-anonymous
If abortion is always murder then tell me why anti-abortion activists are so against contraception being widely available; the day-after pill;...?
Because the "day-after" pill has as one of its mechanisms of action that of preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. Since most (if not all) of those that are pro-life believe that life begins at conception, contraception that can result in preventing a fertilized egg from implanting can cause an abortion (the death of a child).
_____________________________
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 4:41:00 PM
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lilyofthefield
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quote:
This is slightly different angle on the problem. I wonder how much trouble we Christians are going to have with God. Not whether or not we voted pro-life or not, but why we didn't do more to help those who are considering abortion. I think through the dozen or so town I drive through, I've seen only one bill board which encourages mothers not only to keep their babies, but to call them for help.
In my opinion, the Church (which includes me) has forgotten how to help in these situations. I can remember many years ago when a brochure arrived in my mail box advertising a Christian Adoption agency. I thought this a really good idea and called them up to donate money. They were an agency for hire. They charged for their services. Big bucks too. Regardless, they connected unwed mothers with families looking to adopt.
This is were we should be working. In support, not punishment.
I agree that, as Christians, our time and efforts are better spent in productive action with compassion. Most cities have pregnancy support centers that offer alternatives to abortion with actual resources to help women. They are always looking for volunteers.
I do think it is necessary to work for change legally, but as we are working we should also be making a difference on a personal level. Volunteering at a center gives an opportunity to make a difference in the life of one child and one mother at a time.
_____________________________
Caden is here!
A boy is Truth with dirt on its face, Beauty with a cut on its finger, Wisdom with bubble gum in its hair and the Hope of the future with a frog in its pocket. - Alan Beck
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 4:47:04 PM
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KingsFool
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: another-anonymous
If abortion is always murder then tell me why anti-abortion activists are so against contraception being widely available; the day-after pill;...?
Because the "day-after" pill has as one of its mechanisms of action that of preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. Since most (if not all) of those that are pro-life believe that life begins at conception, contraception that can result in preventing a fertilized egg from implanting can cause an abortion (the death of a child).
I think this gets into the finer points of the biological system and its works. The prohibition of contraception as far as I can tell is Catholic. Though I'm anti-abortion, I'm not anti-contraception. My understanding the day after pill is that conception and still occur. That is the morning after pill may not prevent the pregnancy. If that occurs, this pill will still induce abortion. There is still a risk of abortion, hince the objection using this method.
Does a woman have a right to defend herself against invasion?
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 5:08:35 PM
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another-anonymous
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quote:
Because the "day-after" pill has as one of its mechanisms of action that of preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. Since most (if not all) of those that are pro-life believe that life begins at conception, contraception that can result in preventing a fertilized egg from implanting can cause an abortion (the death of a child).
The day-after pill prevents implantation; therefore it would prevent the abortion if the unplanned implantation occurs. You get the same affect taking 6 birth control pills at once.
Not all of us believe that the "soul" begins at conception. Biologically speaking life is a single egg in the woman (the largest living single cell in a woman's body); it's also a single sperm in a man (the largest living single cell in a man's body). Even if the sperm fertilizes the egg it can take hours for it to implant. It seems illogical to me that those who oppose abortion would support the implantation that leads to abortion.
Some people who oppose the day-after pill also oppose birth control pills for the same reason; the possibility that an egg has been fertilized and could be on it's way to implantation and even that it could interupt a possible implantation. When people take the day-after pill they don't even know if a fertilization or implantation has even taken place; they're going on the possibility that it could have.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 5:11:48 PM
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KingsFool
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quote:
ORIGINAL: another-anonymous
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Because the "day-after" pill has as one of its mechanisms of action that of preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. Since most (if not all) of those that are pro-life believe that life begins at conception, contraception that can result in preventing a fertilized egg from implanting can cause an abortion (the death of a child).
The day-after pill prevents implantation; therefore it would prevent the abortion if the unplanned implantation occurs. You get the same affect taking 6 birth control pills at once.
Not all of us believe that the "soul" begins at conception. Biologically speaking life is a single egg in the woman (the largest living single cell in a woman's body); it's also a single sperm in a man (the largest living single cell in a man's body). Even if the sperm fertilizes the egg it can take hours for it to implant. It seems illogical to me that those who oppose abortion would support the implantation that leads to abortion.
Some people who oppose the day-after pill also oppose birth control pills for the same reason; the possibility that an egg has been fertilized and could be on it's way to implantation. When people take the day-after pill they don't even know if a fertilization has even taken place; they're going on the possibility that it could have.
I'm not sure the question is "whether it has a soul" but whether it is human. The first is debated, the second is a fact. It is human.
KF
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