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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 5:14:14 PM
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another-anonymous
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Well, biologically a single unfertilized egg and a single sperm as well, are both human in nature yet they're not a human being. They hold the possibility of becoming a human being.
I think it takes more than biology myself. I think it takes both flesh and spirit to be a human being.
Differences of opinion.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 5:23:43 PM
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KingsFool
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quote:
ORIGINAL: another-anonymous
Well, biologically a single unfertilized egg and a single sperm as well, are both human in nature yet they're not a human being. They hold the possibility of becoming a human being.
I think it takes more than biology myself. I think it takes both flesh and spirit to be a human being.
Differences of opinion.
No. A single egg will not develope into a human being. In fact the female body flushes it out of its system after a short period of time if fertilization doesn't occur. Sperm left to itself dies also.
The two together contain all the DNA of a human being. At that point they are human. Before hand they are not. Not an opinion, a fact.
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 5:37:09 PM
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another-anonymous
Posts: 31
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
quote:
ORIGINAL: another-anonymous
Well, biologically a single unfertilized egg and a single sperm as well, are both human in nature yet they're not a human being. They hold the possibility of becoming a human being.
I think it takes more than biology myself. I think it takes both flesh and spirit to be a human being.
Differences of opinion.
No. A single egg will not develope into a human being. In fact the female body flushes it out of its system after a short period of time if fertilization doesn't occur. Sperm left to itself dies also.
The two together contain all the DNA of a human being. At that point they are human. Before hand they are not. Not an opinion, a fact.
KF
I was saying that biologically speaking the smallest unit of life per se, a single living cell, is present before conception.
It is a FACT that even the two together, with all the DNA of a human being present; there are thousands of miscarrriages. So in my mind... to become a human being, the soul has to take up residence at some point. Becoming a human being is much more than just DNA.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/25/2007 5:54:55 PM
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KingsFool
Posts: 237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: another-anonymous
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
quote:
ORIGINAL: another-anonymous
Well, biologically a single unfertilized egg and a single sperm as well, are both human in nature yet they're not a human being. They hold the possibility of becoming a human being.
I think it takes more than biology myself. I think it takes both flesh and spirit to be a human being.
Differences of opinion.
No. A single egg will not develope into a human being. In fact the female body flushes it out of its system after a short period of time if fertilization doesn't occur. Sperm left to itself dies also.
The two together contain all the DNA of a human being. At that point they are human. Before hand they are not. Not an opinion, a fact.
KF
I was saying that biologically speaking the smallest unit of life per se, a single living cell, is present before conception.
It is a FACT that even the two together, with all the DNA of a human being present; there are thousands of miscarrriages. So in my mind... to become a human being, the soul has to take up residence at some point. Becoming a human being is much more than just DNA.
I don't dispute that miscsarriages occur. Death occurs after birth. I don't see any significant difference between the two events except time. However, when death occurs is not a measure as to when these things are human.
A single sperm or egg do not contain all of the DNA a human has. Once combined, they complete the chain, and as such they are human.
Many argue that they have no personality. As far as we humans can know personality, I agree. However, the zygot is human.
Some debate the soul/spirit aspect of the fertilized egg. That it is not until these things are present, does a human exist. I think that is an interesting thought. However, there is really no way for us to know such a thing. In otherwords, we are unable to tell directly if or when these things come into force or being. Regardless of when they come, the fetilized egg is still human.
I think the question concerning abortion centers around the thought of self defense. Is a woman allowed to defend herself against invasion?
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/26/2007 10:21:17 AM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: another-anonymous
quote:
Because the "day-after" pill has as one of its mechanisms of action that of preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. Since most (if not all) of those that are pro-life believe that life begins at conception, contraception that can result in preventing a fertilized egg from implanting can cause an abortion (the death of a child).
The day-after pill prevents implantation; therefore it would prevent the abortion if the unplanned implantation occurs. You get the same affect taking 6 birth control pills at once.
So you are saying that if implantation never occurs then an abortion cannot occur? This line of reasoning only holds up if one believes that life begins after implantation, which, as I said, most (if not all) of those that are pro-life disagree with. There is no solid reason not to believe that life does not begin at conception. I would rather err on the side of caution and believe that a soul is present then than at some unspecified time afterwards.
quote:
Some people who oppose the day-after pill also oppose birth control pills for the same reason; the possibility that an egg has been fertilized and could be on it's way to implantation and even that it could interupt a possible implantation.
Yes, my wife and I are opposed to any type of birth control that carries with it as one of its mechanisms of action that of preventing implantation of a fertilized egg (hence, a baby).
_____________________________
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/26/2007 4:28:22 PM
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another-anonymous
Posts: 31
Joined: 1/17/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: another-anonymous
quote:
Because the "day-after" pill has as one of its mechanisms of action that of preventing implantation of a fertilized egg. Since most (if not all) of those that are pro-life believe that life begins at conception, contraception that can result in preventing a fertilized egg from implanting can cause an abortion (the death of a child).
The day-after pill prevents implantation; therefore it would prevent the abortion if the unplanned implantation occurs. You get the same affect taking 6 birth control pills at once.
So you are saying that if implantation never occurs then an abortion cannot occur? This line of reasoning only holds up if one believes that life begins after implantation, which, as I said, most (if not all) of those that are pro-life disagree with. There is no solid reason not to believe that life does not begin at conception. I would rather err on the side of caution and believe that a soul is present then than at some unspecified time afterwards.
quote:
Some people who oppose the day-after pill also oppose birth control pills for the same reason; the possibility that an egg has been fertilized and could be on it's way to implantation and even that it could interupt a possible implantation.
Yes, my wife and I are opposed to any type of birth control that carries with it as one of its mechanisms of action that of preventing implantation of a fertilized egg (hence, a baby).
I've given several solid reasons why "life/the soul" doesn't begin at conception. When does the soul/life begin?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/26/2007 11:40:35 PM
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Stephanos
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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What about Jeremiah 1:4-5 which states "Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I ahve appointed you a prophet to the nations."
Luke also has something to add. In telling of a meeting between Mary and Elizabeth (mother of John the Baptist) "For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy."
From those two verses it sure seems to me that we are indeed alive, atleast have a spirit that God can know. Can God know a rock like He knows us? Rather, the fact that John the Baptist knew the mother of Jesus IN THE WOMB! Shows that we can know God even at that point. Especialy when we are set apart by God from the begining of time, (such as we are told in Jeremiah).
I agree CCCdnt on the birth control. The ONLY thing i would support such pills for are for a medical condition that some women have, that requires the pills to relieve severe cramps. (now SEVERAL friends with this problem). Some do/did take the pill, for that reason, and went through a long while of praying to make sure that this was God's will. When a few of my friends got married, they STOPPED the pill since they were actualy trying for a baby. They choose to suffer and not risk life rather than take the easy way out.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/27/2007 1:08:06 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
This is slightly different angle on the problem. I wonder how much trouble we Christians are going to have with God. Not whether or not we voted pro-life or not, but why we didn't do more to help those who are considering abortion.
It's only problem for those who don't help... Just like those who have and support aboritons, it's a their problem regarding being responsible for the sin...
quote:
This is were we should be working. In support, not punishment.
KF
Ok... but to be fair and just(biblically) you shouldn't punishment those who take life outside the womb either...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/27/2007 1:10:31 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Every pro-lifer you've met is a hypocrite... Can't convict the mobster and allow the woman to walk... That's injustice...
John
I believe this is the first time I've seen someone expressing that sentiment on this board. That certainly puts you out on a limb with respect to other pro-lifers on this board, however sound your reasoning may be.
So be it...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/30/2007 3:29:36 PM
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KingsFool
Posts: 237
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
What about Jeremiah 1:4-5 which states "Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I ahve appointed you a prophet to the nations."
Luke also has something to add. In telling of a meeting between Mary and Elizabeth (mother of John the Baptist) "For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy."
From those two verses it sure seems to me that we are indeed alive, atleast have a spirit that God can know. Can God know a rock like He knows us? Rather, the fact that John the Baptist knew the mother of Jesus IN THE WOMB! Shows that we can know God even at that point. Especialy when we are set apart by God from the begining of time, (such as we are told in Jeremiah).
I agree CCCdnt on the birth control. The ONLY thing i would support such pills for are for a medical condition that some women have, that requires the pills to relieve severe cramps. (now SEVERAL friends with this problem). Some do/did take the pill, for that reason, and went through a long while of praying to make sure that this was God's will. When a few of my friends got married, they STOPPED the pill since they were actualy trying for a baby. They choose to suffer and not risk life rather than take the easy way out.
I kind of understand where you are coming from on this point, but I don't think either of those scriptures gives us any time frame from when in womb does God know us. I think what these verses are really talking about is that God knows what is going to happen before we even came into existance.
As far as the baby leaping the womb, doesn't that start sometime after the first trimester?
Finally, doesn't a woman have the right to defend herself?
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/30/2007 3:32:34 PM
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KingsFool
Posts: 237
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
This is slightly different angle on the problem. I wonder how much trouble we Christians are going to have with God. Not whether or not we voted pro-life or not, but why we didn't do more to help those who are considering abortion.
It's only problem for those who don't help... Just like those who have and support aboritons, it's a their problem regarding being responsible for the sin...
quote:
This is were we should be working. In support, not punishment.
KF
Ok... but to be fair and just(biblically) you shouldn't punishment those who take life outside the womb either...
John
We don't. It's called manslaughter. Sometimes people are not punished when they take a life. People are not punished for taking like while drunk driving and killing someone, through neglagence they are often not punished, the list goes on. So I'm not sure of your point.
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/30/2007 8:33:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
This is slightly different angle on the problem. I wonder how much trouble we Christians are going to have with God. Not whether or not we voted pro-life or not, but why we didn't do more to help those who are considering abortion.
It's only problem for those who don't help... Just like those who have and support aboritons, it's a their problem regarding being responsible for the sin...
quote:
This is were we should be working. In support, not punishment.
KF
Ok... but to be fair and just(biblically) you shouldn't punishment those who take life outside the womb either...
John
We don't. It's called manslaughter. Sometimes people are not punished when they take a life. People are not punished for taking like while drunk driving and killing someone, through neglagence they are often not punished, the list goes on. So I'm not sure of your point.
KF
Actually we do... People are in jail and have forfeited their life for unjustly taking the lives of others... And because we always don't doesn't serve your point... As well people do serve time for some forms of manslaughter...
It's a DOUBLE STANDARD to say it's ok to kill in the womb, but not outside the womb...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/30/2007 9:36:52 PM
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KingsFool
Posts: 237
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
This is slightly different angle on the problem. I wonder how much trouble we Christians are going to have with God. Not whether or not we voted pro-life or not, but why we didn't do more to help those who are considering abortion.
It's only problem for those who don't help... Just like those who have and support aboritons, it's a their problem regarding being responsible for the sin...
quote:
This is were we should be working. In support, not punishment.
KF
Ok... but to be fair and just(biblically) you shouldn't punishment those who take life outside the womb either...
John
We don't. It's called manslaughter. Sometimes people are not punished when they take a life. People are not punished for taking like while drunk driving and killing someone, through neglagence they are often not punished, the list goes on. So I'm not sure of your point.
KF
Actually we do... People are in jail and have forfeited their life for unjustly taking the lives of others... And because we always don't doesn't serve your point... As well people do serve time for some forms of manslaughter...
It's a DOUBLE STANDARD to say it's ok to kill in the womb, but not outside the womb...
John
It would be a double standard only if what you say is true all the time. That is not the case. Both what I said above is true also. We don't always take a life for life taken out of the womb. In the case of manslaughter they dont always do time. Your point only stands if it is always true and it is clear it is not always true.
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/30/2007 9:45:38 PM
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jawsmetroid
Posts: 232
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Shorts all year, MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
It would be a double standard only if what you say is true all the time. That is not the case. Both what I said above is true also. We don't always take a life for life taken out of the womb. In the case of manslaughter they dont always do time. Your point only stands if it is always true and it is clear it is not always true.
KF
Murdering is sin. Whether inside or outside the womb. Abortion is usually done because someone made a bad decision, or an uninformed one. Also, I wonder how many abortions are in cases of premarital sex... in which case having sex in the first place was wrong, then they had to cover it up by having an abortion.
_____________________________
I say what I mean and mean what I say. I'm not implying something unless it's obvious. When in doubt, ask, don't assume.
Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!- Toby Mac
Chat about the deep things in life...
www.jawsmetroid.blogspot.com
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/30/2007 10:04:14 PM
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KingsFool
Posts: 237
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jawsmetroid
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
It would be a double standard only if what you say is true all the time. That is not the case. Both what I said above is true also. We don't always take a life for life taken out of the womb. In the case of manslaughter they dont always do time. Your point only stands if it is always true and it is clear it is not always true.
KF
Murdering is sin. Whether inside or outside the womb. Abortion is usually done because someone made a bad decision, or an uninformed one. Also, I wonder how many abortions are in cases of premarital sex... in which case having sex in the first place was wrong, then they had to cover it up by having an abortion.
I'm pretty sure I've addressed all of these points in previous posts. Murder is sin. However, not every abortion is murder, therefore abortion is not always murder.
There is always the underlying assumption that sex is strictly for procreation. If that was the case, then every time two people get together in that fashion, pregnancy would occur. That is not true either.
So I think the only question left is "Does the woman have a right to defend herself?"
I don't disagree that premarital sex is sinful, but so is lieing and stealing. In fact if my memory servers me lieing is the worse sin according to God, not murder.
I'm wondering if this topic is starting to grow stale at this point?
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/30/2007 10:31:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingsFool
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
This is slightly different angle on the problem. I wonder how much trouble we Christians are going to have with God. Not whether or not we voted pro-life or not, but why we didn't do more to help those who are considering abortion.
It's only problem for those who don't help... Just like those who have and support aboritons, it's a their problem regarding being responsible for the sin...
quote:
This is were we should be working. In support, not punishment.
KF
Ok... but to be fair and just(biblically) you shouldn't punishment those who take life outside the womb either...
John
We don't. It's called manslaughter. Sometimes people are not punished when they take a life. People are not punished for taking like while drunk driving and killing someone, through neglagence they are often not punished, the list goes on. So I'm not sure of your point.
KF
Actually we do... People are in jail and have forfeited their life for unjustly taking the lives of others... And because we always don't doesn't serve your point... As well people do serve time for some forms of manslaughter...
It's a DOUBLE STANDARD to say it's ok to kill in the womb, but not outside the womb...
John
It would be a double standard only if what you say is true all the time. That is not the case. Both what I said above is true also. We don't always take a life for life taken out of the womb. In the case of manslaughter they dont always do time. Your point only stands if it is always true and it is clear it is not always true.
KF
What says a double standard has to take place in all the time for there to be a double standard? To charge one person with murder because the victim is outside the womb while 3000 unborn children daily have their lives unjustly taken is a double standard... It's an injustice to both the unborn, and those we charge with murder...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 1/30/2007 10:37:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
I'm pretty sure I've addressed all of these points in previous posts. Murder is sin. However, not every abortion is murder, therefore abortion is not always murder.
The only possible just cause for taking the life of the unborn is to save the life of the mother...That takes place how many times per abortion? And there's been how many abortions since 1973? About 48,000,000....
quote:
So I think the only question left is "Does the woman have a right to defend herself?"
Defend against what?
quote:
I don't disagree that premarital sex is sinful, but so is lieing and stealing. In fact if my memory servers me lieing is the worse sin according to God, not murder.
The bible says the just temporal punishement for murder is death... I don't believe it says that for lieing...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/2/2007 2:50:13 PM
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KingsFool
Posts: 237
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
I'm pretty sure I've addressed all of these points in previous posts. Murder is sin. However, not every abortion is murder, therefore abortion is not always murder.
The only possible just cause for taking the life of the unborn is to save the life of the mother...That takes place how many times per abortion? And there's been how many abortions since 1973? About 48,000,000....
quote:
So I think the only question left is "Does the woman have a right to defend herself?"
Defend against what?
quote:
I don't disagree that premarital sex is sinful, but so is lieing and stealing. In fact if my memory servers me lieing is the worse sin according to God, not murder.
The bible says the just temporal punishement for murder is death... I don't believe it says that for lieing...
John
Does an woman have a right to defend herself against assault? I think the answer is yes. This would include sexual assault.
Actually we have (mankind) stratified sin, here is a passage in which sin is somewhat categorized:
Provebs 6
16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
I think in these passages lying and a proud look are equal to shedding inocent blood (I presume to be murder). If we make anything of the oder in which these sins appear, then murder comes third.
My point is that murder, as bad as it sounds, is not any worse and possilbe a little less than lying according to God as recorded in Proverbs 6.
What is the point? Abortion is over emphisied. I think it is over emphisiesed to the point that all other Christian duties and actions are neglected; charity, helping the old, infirmed, poverty striken, ill , etc. Though I can't speak for the entire church, I noticed in my part of the larger congregation we can gather hundreds for abortion marches, one or two to help with the soup kitchen. We are willing to bomb, harrass, etc abortion clinics, but don't spend the same energy helping single mothers with their maternity and babies. Not that this is a measure of anything, but I've noticed one billboard concerning unwed expecting mothers and a message of encouragement.
I think we spend way to much time on the wrong side of abortion. Instead of concetrating our efforts on this side, we should concentrate our efforts on the other side.
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/2/2007 4:35:23 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
Does an woman have a right to defend herself against assault? I think the answer is yes. This would include sexual assault.
A person's right to defend themselves has what to do with abortion?
quote:
I think in these passages lying and a proud look are equal to shedding inocent blood (I presume to be murder). If we make anything of the oder in which these sins appear, then murder comes third.
My point is that murder, as bad as it sounds, is not any worse and possilbe a little less than lying according to God as recorded in Proverbs 6.
Your point doesn't get past the fact that the bible says if murder the just punishment is your life...
quote:
What is the point? Abortion is over emphisied. I think it is over emphisiesed to the point that all other Christian duties and actions are neglected; charity, helping the old, infirmed, poverty striken, ill , etc.
I believe the 48,000,000(and counting) dead children don't agree with you.... 3000 more will be killed today...
quote:
I think we spend way to much time on the wrong side of abortion. Instead of concetrating our efforts on this side, we should concentrate our efforts on the other side.
Whatever that means... Normally in matters of mass murder we deal with those who choose to take life...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/2/2007 5:36:57 PM
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Headhunter
Posts: 29
Joined: 1/30/2007
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"is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion?"
IMO, no, conception is the divine spark of the creation of a human being, and to abort, would be to usurp God's work, since he has us in mind, before we are born.
Perhaps only in the case of incest.
Btw, I met a rape child not too long ago, and he's a good good man, and his mother did the best she could, but unfortunately, favours his sister in many ways, which is both understandable, and sad, but he himself is very much a child of God. I think I helped him appreciate his value in God's sight.
There (in the case of rape), I suppose, though it's hard, having met this particular person, but there too, perhaps, it should be up to the victim to choose.. ?
So no, except maybe in those two cases.
Regards,
Rob
HH
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/2/2007 5:46:45 PM
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KingsFool
Posts: 237
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Does an woman have a right to defend herself against assault? I think the answer is yes. This would include sexual assault.
A person's right to defend themselves has what to do with abortion?
Sure. If someone is sexually assualted abortion is defending yourself from that person and what they did to you.
quote:
I think in these passages lying and a proud look are equal to shedding inocent blood (I presume to be murder). If we make anything of the oder in which these sins appear, then murder comes third.
My point is that murder, as bad as it sounds, is not any worse and possilbe a little less than lying according to God as recorded in Proverbs 6.
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Your point doesn't get past the fact that the bible says if murder the just punishment is your life...
No, you over simplify the problem as I've demonstrated several times now. The point is that murder, the most horific thing despised by God which should not go unpunished, etc., etc, is really considered no worse than lying by God. One may argue that the Law requires an eye for an eye, but then we might have a contradiction. If God makes lying and murder an equal abomination, and he does this at the very least, then these sins are not worse or better than the other. We don't put liers to death. Christ said in the NT that even though the OT requires an eye for an eye, turn your other cheek. I think he takes the entire subject and places it in an entirely new light.
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What is the point? Abortion is over emphisied. I think it is over emphisiesed to the point that all other Christian duties and actions are neglected; charity, helping the old, infirmed, poverty striken, ill , etc.
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I believe the 48,000,000(and counting) dead children don't agree with you.... 3000 more will be killed today...
Look, I'm pretty sure you and absolutely none one else on this side of heaven could have spoken to any of these fetuses and ask them what they think. So this entire conjecture is fantasy. Can we stick with what we know?
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I think we spend way to much time on the wrong side of abortion. Instead of concetrating our efforts on this side, we should concentrate our efforts on the other side.
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Whatever that means... Normally in matters of mass murder we deal with those who choose to take life...
John
It means put your money where your mouth is and start doing something to prevent the abortion. Makes much more sense to me to provide the services and support a single mother needs to raise the child. These women really don't have many options. The easier you can make it for them, the better chance that baby has to survive.
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/2/2007 6:31:37 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1088
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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If someone is sexually assualted abortion is defending yourself from that person and what they did to you.
By killing someone else?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/2/2007 7:19:33 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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A person's right to defend themselves has what to do with abortion?
Sure. If someone is sexually assualted abortion is defending yourself from that person and what they did to you.
The bible doesn't agree... That's called vengeance... Killing the child of the rapist isn't self defense, it's murder.... Read Matthew 5
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No, you over simplify the problem as I've demonstrated several times now.
No... I cleary state what the bible says and you ignore what it says...
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The point is that murder, the most horific thing despised by God which should not go unpunished, etc., etc, is really considered no worse than lying by God.
Actually that's not so... There are greater sins... Christ told Pilate that those who betrayed Him had a GREATER sin... Read John 19
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One may argue that the Law requires an eye for an eye, but then we might have a contradiction.
The bible says the just punishment for murder is death... No contradiction, and that hasn't been revoked...
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If God makes lying and murder an equal abomination, and he does this at the very least, then these sins are not worse or better than the other. We don't put liers to death.
You need to learn the difference between temporal consequences and eternal consequences...
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Christ said in the NT that even though the OT requires an eye for an eye, turn your other cheek.
Christ is speaking of duties of the indivdual not those God ordained to deal with those who do evil, that being the civil government... See Romans 13... Christ never, nor does the bible revoke the punishment for murder that being death by the proper authorities...
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I think he takes the entire subject and places it in an entirely new light.
Yes He did.... Christ said if you hate your brother you have broken the 6th Commandment, He liken hate to murder...
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I believe the 48,000,000(and counting) dead children don't agree with you.... 3000 more will be killed today...
Look, I'm pretty sure you and absolutely none one else on this side of heaven could have spoken to any of these fetuses and ask them what they think. So this entire conjecture is fantasy. Can we stick with what we know?
It's not a GUESS to believe that those killed by abortion don't believe it's over emphisied... 48,000,000 and counting is REAL... So are the 3000 killed today...
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It means put your money where your mouth is and start doing something to prevent the abortion.
I have to pay people to not kill unborn children?
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Makes much more sense to me to provide the services and support a single mother needs to raise the child. These women really don't have many options.
Sorry, not everyone who has an abortion is without options... Half of all abortion are repeats...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/16/2007 8:56:45 PM
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KingsFool
Posts: 237
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: ljmac
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If someone is sexually assualted abortion is defending yourself from that person and what they did to you.
By killing someone else?
Yes, it is called "self defense" and allowed by the Bible.
KF
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 2/16/2007 9:18:26 PM
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