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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 1:22:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
I understand the point you are making. However, while it is probably “right wing conservatives” who tend to be "pro-life" and probably “left wing liberals” who tend to be “pro-choice”. I would think we might be better able to understand each others views if we look at it from a Christian perspective, rather than a political perspective. .
For obvious reason those who claim Christ and support abortion don't wish the debate to take place from the Christian perspective... There is always a push to the extreme example of the mother's life... Of course the truth that most abortions are simply after the fact birth control dosen't get a lot attention...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 1:24:50 PM
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LorenMichael
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
What point are you referring too? The labeling on this issue is just a game to make folks feel better for being in support of murder...
John
no, the labeling on this issue is just a game to make folks debate polemic rather than issues and motivations.
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Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 1:39:13 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LorenMichael
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
What point are you referring too? The labeling on this issue is just a game to make folks feel better for being in support of murder...
John
no, the labeling on this issue is just a game to make folks debate polemic rather than issues and motivations.
When abortion takes place a life is unjustly taken according to the Word of God. All the issues and motivations amount to nothing in the end but excuses for murder...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 1:43:57 PM
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LorenMichael
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how lovely it must be to have recused yourself from the need to have a discussion.
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Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 1:58:32 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1914
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LorenMichael
how lovely it must be to have recused yourself from the need to have a discussion.
How gray does it have to before we can have a discussion?
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 2:03:04 PM
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LorenMichael
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: LorenMichael
how lovely it must be to have recused yourself from the need to have a discussion.
How gray does it have to before we can have a discussion?
John
no greys, it's just that appeals to authority don't get much done beyond "i'm right because i'm right because i'm right." it's not an argument, and it's not convincing to anyone who doesn't share your views, which you may or may not be concerned about.
_____________________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 2:20:36 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1013
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From: St. Louis, Missouri
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A few years after I was born, my mom (with a new husband....wont get into THAT story) found herself pregnant again. I was all thrilled to be having a sibling. We found out that my mother was having a girl, and a name was already picked. Moria (from Peter Pan....Through my mother I am actualy related to the family [Darlings] that the story was written for), was going to be the baby girls name. But a complication arose. Something was wrong with moria and the doctors told my mom that if she was born, Moria would have severe birth defects (would not live from them) and furthermore if my mother cared to term, HER life would be at alot greater risk as well. My mother desided to have an abortion.
She now regrets it greatly (she was not a practicing Christian at the time, but now is). Further more, she regrets it even knowing that after Moria, she went on to have two healthy baby boys, my half-brothers, Ian and Jared.
It is because of my mother that I refuse to believe that "life of the mother" is a viable reason for abortion. While I do not know if I would recomend making laws against it (all of abortion yes, this maybe not), I think that if a woman was faced with this situation, she should look to God first and not to doctors saying she needs to have an abortion. In such a case, I do not think God would be as upset with someone, as if they were just getting an abortion for the sake of convinence. While it is a choice that in the end only the mother could make, I would always say trust in God to fix the situation and go to full term knowing God will do what is in HIS will.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 2:26:45 PM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
I would always say trust in God to fix the situation and go to full term knowing God will do what is in HIS will.
And that His will is sometimes very hard.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 2:27:58 PM
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GraduateMom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: GraduateMom
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: GraduateMom
As a Christian I would only condone abortion to save the life of the mother, this is similar to self-defense not being considered murder.
For it to be like self-defense the child would have to be equated to someone wishing to harm with malicious intent...
John
Similar not identical, but I get your point. I don't know that had I been in the position of having my doctor tell me I would die if I continued my pregnancy that I could have chosen to kill my child. But if one or both are to die, then I would not consider the killing of the child murder any more than I would consider that the child murdered the mother if the woman died because she continued the pregnancy.
Take the situation out of the womb.... I believe a mother, or father for that matter would be expected to lay their life down for their children, correct?
John
I expect a parent to not kill their child for the sake of convenience. When we are talking about the life of the mother the choice isn’t always will it be the mother or the child who dies, sometimes the choice is will the child die or will the mother AND the child die.
_____________________________
OneStory - spreading the Word of God to unreached people groups.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 3:05:58 PM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
All the issues and motivations amount to nothing in the end but excuses for murder...
Abortion is not murder according to the laws of the land. Now, the laws of God may be different . . .
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 5:05:25 PM
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rhippie
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From: Rich The Hippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
All the issues and motivations amount to nothing in the end but excuses for murder...
Abortion is not murder according to the laws of the land. Now, the laws of God may be different . . .
Not "may be different".....they are differnt
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Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 5:25:50 PM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
Not that I necessarily disagree, but how do you draw this line from a Christian perspective- seeing as how that is the topic of this thread- and/or see it as compatible with Christianity?
As I understand the statistics, I believe it is 99% or higher that a fetus that threatens the mother will not live anyways. I would say 100% but I don't exactly remember the stats I saw.
Since the baby is dead anyways, then aborting it does it no harm. Dead or in the process of dieing or with no possibility of living.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 5:57:18 PM
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tafkam
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quote:
Abortion is not murder according to the laws of the land. Now, the laws of God may be different . . .
Are you saying the law of the land trumps God's law?
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"Quiet, I'm a' thinkin'!.......And my head hurts!" - Yosemite Sam
Tafkam
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 7:00:47 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1914
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LorenMichael
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: LorenMichael
how lovely it must be to have recused yourself from the need to have a discussion.
How gray does it have to before we can have a discussion?
John
no greys, it's just that appeals to authority don't get much done beyond "i'm right because i'm right because i'm right." it's not an argument, and it's not convincing to anyone who doesn't share your views, which you may or may not be concerned about.
The only reason people wish to discuss the issues surrounding abortion is to direct the focus away from the fact that a child is murdered when an abortion takes place... There is no middle ground when it comes to the death(murder) of a million children. People that support this activity should be treated like those who were forced to walk through the death camps after they were liberated. Just because there is another point of view on abortion doesn't automatically grant that the view as any merit... The bible doesn't grant one the right to unjustly take life. The defense for abortion always resides outside the Word of God...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 7:07:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1914
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
All the issues and motivations amount to nothing in the end but excuses for murder...
Abortion is not murder according to the laws of the land. Now, the laws of God may be different . . .
The laws of God are different and they are supreme, they trump the laws of the land. The fact that abortion is allowed is a sin itself. Abortion is murder for hire, consider one of the more heinous forms of murder if done outside the womb... As well the fact that the state charges some folks for murder and upholds the right of some to commit murder is another sin. The fact that the state is suppose to be the minister of God for those who do evil and it is in fact supporting evil in regards to abortion is a grave sin... The unborn are unjustly killed with the blessing of the state...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 7:11:04 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1914
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraduateMom
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: GraduateMom
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: GraduateMom
As a Christian I would only condone abortion to save the life of the mother, this is similar to self-defense not being considered murder.
For it to be like self-defense the child would have to be equated to someone wishing to harm with malicious intent...
John
Similar not identical, but I get your point. I don't know that had I been in the position of having my doctor tell me I would die if I continued my pregnancy that I could have chosen to kill my child. But if one or both are to die, then I would not consider the killing of the child murder any more than I would consider that the child murdered the mother if the woman died because she continued the pregnancy.
Take the situation out of the womb.... I believe a mother, or father for that matter would be expected to lay their life down for their children, correct?
John
I expect a parent to not kill their child for the sake of convenience. When we are talking about the life of the mother the choice isn’t always will it be the mother or the child who dies, sometimes the choice is will the child die or will the mother AND the child die.
Given that vast majority of aborton is for the sake of convenience why do you expect a parent to not kill their child for the sake of convenience?
If a person can kill another person in the womb to save themselves why not outside the womb? What's the difference?
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 7:29:14 PM
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LorenMichael
Posts: 509
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: LorenMichael
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: LorenMichael
how lovely it must be to have recused yourself from the need to have a discussion.
How gray does it have to before we can have a discussion?
John
no greys, it's just that appeals to authority don't get much done beyond "i'm right because i'm right because i'm right." it's not an argument, and it's not convincing to anyone who doesn't share your views, which you may or may not be concerned about.
The only reason people wish to discuss the issues surrounding abortion is to direct the focus away from the fact that a child is murdered when an abortion takes place.
...except that many people don't consider it to be a murder.
i'm going to recuse myself from this conversation though, as i have no desire of getting banned for my comments.
_____________________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 8:13:21 PM
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revdrew
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Pro-abortion? No. But very few people are actually in favor of abortions.
If you're not pro-life you're pro-abortion...In fact you sanction murder. The word game is a farce...
While I disagree with your assertion, I'll play the game. I am pro-life, and while I am, I still understand why some would want abortion to be legal.
quote:
quote:
Many Christians are pro-abortion-being-legal, however. I see rules regarding abortion like the rules we have regarding war.
Do these Christians having any biblical ground to stand on with their support for abortion, the unlawful taking of life?
I did not say that they supported abortion. I allow the practice of Mormonism to remain legal, but I am not pro-Mormon.
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quote:
War, like abortion, should never happen, but we realize that in our sinful world, both will occur, regardless of the laws. Both of these are amazingly devastating, and some people have said that niether should be condoned under any circumstance.
What is the connection between abortion and war?
The connection is, as I stated, that they are two horrible things that take life. Niether should every happen, and both do. Does this mean that abortion is ok? Absolutley not! But my opinion on war is like my opinion on abortion. I am against it, but I know that it requires a more nuanced response than "it should never happen."
And, as another poster pointed out. I know that war can lead to peace, but that's the same arguement as "abortion prevents child abuse (or poverty, or whatever)." Technically true, but morally inconsistant.
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Are those people pro-abortion? Only sick people want abortions to happen (and I know there are a few sick people in this world).
Pro-choice, pro-abortion, both groups sanction murder...
As do the "pro-war" folk, but I understand that a person can be pro-war and still be a Christian.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 8:35:14 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1914
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
The only reason people wish to discuss the issues surrounding abortion is to direct the focus away from the fact that a child is murdered when an abortion takes place.
...except that many people don't consider it to be a murder.
And everyone in prison is innocent... Of course I don't exspect those who support abortion to believe it's murder...
That's why you hear things like, it's a right, what about the life of the mother, who are you to judge, are you God, would you support the child if she had it, bible says don't judge, you can't force your morals on other people, it's not really a life, it's her body, God is ok with it because He allow it, it's the law of the land and God says we're to obey the law of land, having baby will ruin her life, the world already has too many people....
quote:
i'm going to recuse myself from this conversation though, as i have no desire of getting banned for my comments.
I am sure if you have a solid biblical l argument for abortion it will make it past the powers to be.... Surely God want's the truth to be proclaimed...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 8:51:44 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1914
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
quote:
Pro-abortion? No. But very few people are actually in favor of abortions.
If you're not pro-life you're pro-abortion...In fact you sanction murder. The word game is a farce...
While I disagree with your assertion, I'll play the game.
Disagree all you wish, but it's one or the other... Abortion kills without just cause... Outright support and silent consent are both support...
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I am pro-life, and while I am, I still understand why some would want abortion to be legal.
...to cover sin.
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quote:
quote:
Many Christians are pro-abortion-being-legal, however. I see rules regarding abortion like the rules we have regarding war.
Do these Christians having any biblical ground to stand on with their support for abortion, the unlawful taking of life?
I did not say that they supported abortion.
You don't have to, they do with their own words and deeds... Support of something that takes life without just cause is a sin... There things called sins of omission...
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I allow the practice of Mormonism to remain legal, but I am not pro-Mormon.
The practice of Mormonism doesn't directly lead to the mass murder of over million unborn children...
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quote:
What is the connection between abortion and war?
The connection is, as I stated, that they are two horrible things that take life. Niether should every happen, and both do.
If another country attacks the other country has a right to defend... So your connection of war and abortion isn't all that sound...
quote:
Does this mean that abortion is ok? Absolutley not! But my opinion on war is like my opinion on abortion. I am against it, but I know that it requires a more nuanced response than "it should never happen."
What is required has nothing to do with the fact that abortion is murder and that a Christiand who supports murder has some serious issues....
quote:
And, as another poster pointed out. I know that war can lead to peace, but that's the same arguement as "abortion prevents child abuse (or poverty, or whatever)." Technically true, but morally inconsistant.
Actually abortion causes a lack of regard for life in general so that not alll that technically true...
quote:
As do the "pro-war" folk, but I understand that a person can be pro-war and still be a Christian.
One can make a case for just cause of war...Defence of a nation being one of them...
The bible says that only self-defense is just cause for an individual to take another person’s life...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 8:57:54 PM
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GraduateMom
Posts: 215
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Houston
Status: offline
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quote:
Take the situation out of the womb.... I believe a mother, or father for that matter would be expected to lay their life down for their children, correct?
John
quote:
I expect a parent to not kill their child for the sake of convenience. When we are talking about the life of the mother the choice isn’t always will it be the mother or the child who dies, sometimes the choice is will the child die or will the mother AND the child die.
quote:
Given that vast majority of aborton is for the sake of convenience why do you expect a parent to not kill their child for the sake of convenience?
If a person can kill another person in the womb to save themselves why not outside the womb? What's the difference?
John
I don’t know that there is any difference if you are talking about saving a life.
_____________________________
OneStory - spreading the Word of God to unreached people groups.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 9:11:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1914
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
quote:
If a person can kill another person in the womb to save themselves why not outside the womb? What's the difference?
I don’t know that there is any difference if you are talking about saving a life.
So you are saying that it's ok for a woman to kill a child outside the womb to save her own life?
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 9:44:20 PM
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GraduateMom
Posts: 215
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Houston
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
quote:
If a person can kill another person in the womb to save themselves why not outside the womb? What's the difference?
I don’t know that there is any difference if you are talking about saving a life.
So you are saying that it's ok for a woman to kill a child outside the womb to save her own life?
John
If the only choice is kill or be killed then yes.
_____________________________
OneStory - spreading the Word of God to unreached people groups.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 9:55:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 1914
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraduateMom
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
quote:
If a person can kill another person in the womb to save themselves why not outside the womb? What's the difference?
I don’t know that there is any difference if you are talking about saving a life.
So you are saying that it's ok for a woman to kill a child outside the womb to save her own life?
John
If the only choice is kill or be killed then yes.
You are saying that if a child threatened a person's life they could defend themselves, up to the point of taking the child's life, correct?
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/25/2006 10:01:00 PM
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CCCdnt
Posts: 307
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraduateMom
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
quote:
If a person can kill another person in the womb to save themselves why not outside the womb? What's the difference?
I don’t know that there is any difference if you are talking about saving a life.
So you are saying that it's ok for a woman to kill a child outside the womb to save her own life?
John
If the only choice is kill or be killed then yes.
What would be an example of a situation where a child (outside the womb) without malicious intent would threaten the life of another where the choice would be "kill or be killed" and also where if the person were to kill the child, it would be deemed self defense and not murder? (remember, this has to be a situation where the child has no malicious intent since a baby in the womb is not intentionally trying to kill the mother)
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