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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 3:51:34 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2574
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quote:
ORIGINAL: momfree
"You can't support and not advocate the same thing... "
In your opinion that is....supporting a womens right to choose is NOT the same as advocating abortion. But in your close mindedness you'll never see the difference.
No, it's your own words... You say your support the right of woman to abort a child, and in the next breath you say don't support abortion...
The RIGHT in question is the right to take life and in the case of abortion there is not just cause...
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The rest is all the same rhetoric. As far as the word of God vs mans law. It is the law of this country and we are told to uphold the laws of the country.
Really...Do you know that some laws of a country in the past included human sacrifice?
You should really consider putting more thought into the matter... The bible doesn't teach blind allegiance to the civil government...
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It is not illegal. And in actuality the Bible is silent on the matter of abortion.
Only if one convinces themselves of the following... What in the womb is not a life and that the bible is silent on the unjust taking of life...
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You can quote the typical Scriptures the pro-lifers do that they choose to interpret as a law against abortion but I do not agree that it means such in any which way thereforth a discussion of such sort would be a waste of time for you.
Of course the of above begs the question regarding what you have previously posted....
Why post the following if you believe abortion is OK with God...
(and most definately would prefer and pray she carries that child to term)
The consequences will be hers to face and the decision one between her and God.
You view seems to jump back and forth...
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I do believe in Christ and His word, but the Sciptures used are really a stretch of interpretation but that's ok, you have your views, I have mine.
Your mention of homosexuals isn't aligned with scripture, nor is your view regarding who is responsible for their sin... Your entire premise on the subject is sans any biblical reasoning and straight from secular reasoning... God's word is rather clear on what murder is, the unjust taking of life... An individual can only take life in the act of defending oneself, and the state can only do so to those justly accused. Beyond that taking life is a sin...
You can attempt to shoehorn abortion into that, but it won't and never will fit...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 3:58:48 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 197
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: momfree
To answer a couple things. Yes I know all about Crisis Pregnany Centers, I have one in my neighborhood. And, I have supported for the last 7 years with monetary contributions and ongoing donations (and no, I have not supported PP). This is a very small number of people doing this in contrast to the sheer number of ones willing to yell "murderer" yet do not much about it.
In your previous post you alleged that pro-lifers did nothing. Now you say, ok they are doing something but it is too few compared to the ones yelling "murderer".
Let me explain myself a bit. I am staunchly pro-life and have never called any woman who has had an abortion a murderer. I agree, let's drop some of this inflammatory rhetoric and really examine this issue.
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Let me explain pro-choice, which is really a waste of time because you will still hold to the assertion that pro-choice advocates abortion.
What is the point in this statement? Are you calling me too stupid to understand? or that I am too narrow minded?
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I support the women's right to choose (and most definately would prefer and pray she carries that child to term). But it is her choice, at this point in time, it is LEGAL in this country and NOT a crime and therforth it is a women's choice. If a 14yr old teenager is raped by her father and conceives a baby, I support her choice to choose to carry to term, to place for adoption, to raise the child or to terminate the pregnancy or take the morning after pill when she gets to the hospital (or any women for that matter). It is just as disturbing to pro-lifers and the VAST majority of pro-choicers that abortion (surgical or with the RU ) is used as a method of birth control also. I don't advocate abortion, I don't recommend it, I don't support it. But, it is a women's right to choose I support. The consequences will be hers to face and the decision one between her and God.
Most pro-choice people I have met are typically against abortion for themselves but it is about respecting a women's choice in the matter EVEN IF we would hope and pray she didn't terminate.
Now that you have given the best explanation you can think of - Once again I ask - what is the choice? When someone describes themselves as "pro-choice" the logical question is WHOSE choice and WHAT choice? It seems to me the pre-born child has not been given much of a choice! If the woman believes strongly that it would be wrong to abort so she chooses life for her baby is that "pro-choice"? Of course not! The choice being presented is the legal right, currently sanctioned by the government, to end the life that is growing within her. Am I wrong? You say her decision is between her and God. How is this decision any different from a mother taking the life of her 2 year old? Still between her and God but now the government says it is wrong. What is the difference? In one case the child has not yet had the opportunity to breathe because it has the misfortune of being inside of the mother's body. Are you saying that that is the one and only reason the mother should have the right to end that baby's life?
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Want a solution? Well here is probably one of dozen other ways. Let's make contraception and education more readily available to young ones. Go ahead and teach absitenence also. Why is it that the same ones that scream baby killers are the same ones that ALSO oppose the readily available use and education on birth control and contraception for young ones today?????? Where is the logic?
Again, I don't advocate the choice of "eliminating" any child, disabled, unwanted or anything else. I'm asking, what are pro-lifers doing to care for these unwanted children? It's not sidestepping the issue, it's a valid point that I have yet had ONE staunch pro-lifer be able to give a reasonable response to. They typically resort to "Uh....oh well, you are just pro-muder". Give an answer to that please?
It is sidestepping the issue when you declare them as "unwanted". By giving them that label you have given your solution by saying, in your opinion, they and their mother would have been better off if they had not been born.
The issue, in my opinion, comes down to two points.
The first is a sin issue. I do not have an answer to that but thankfully Jesus does. I know you may criticize this as being impractical but the sin issue existed long before Roe V Wade and all the abortions since then has done nothing to stop that problem.
The second is the definition of when life begins. The pro-life side of this issue considers life to begin at conception. Causing that life to cease is wrong and we will always consider that to be wrong. Creative arguments have been presented by the pro-abortion side defining the beginning of life when the heart beats, when the first breath is taken, or when brain activity begins. Most honest bioloigists will tell you that cell division is a sign of a living organism. Furthermore, there is plenty of activity within a single cell that indicates the existence of life.
If there is agreement that life begins at conception then there must also be agreement that stopping that life is wrong.
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Who will take in all these unwanted children? I'm not saying they should have been aborted...I'm asking, if pro-lifers do not agree a women has a choice, then WHO will carry the consequences???
Society carries the burden for all the wrongs committed within it. Pro-lifers and pro-choicers alike.
Why do you wish to grant a woman the right to end the life of her pre-born baby? Why stop there? Why not allow the intentional death of a month old disabled child? Why stop there, why not a 2 year old? - or how about Andrea Yates who drowned her 5 children a couple of years ago? She was their mother - did she not have the "right" to end their lives?
In reality, women have many choices. The problem, as I see it, is that too many are looking for the easy way out - abortion gives that to them.
While I am on this rant let me add one thing. Yes, the right of a woman to have an abortion is the law of the land - given to them by an oligarchy - not the people. There has yet to be any legislation passed by the people, that I know of, which grants a woman this right. Given that, we still live in a democracy and I and other pro-life advocates are within our Constitutional rights to lobby Congress and our state legislatures for laws restricting abortions. For you to say that we are focused only on changing these laws and not actually helping women and their children is simply wrong.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 4:10:35 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 197
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
ORIGINAL: momfree
And in actuality the Bible is silent on the matter of abortion. You can quote the typical Scriptures the pro-lifers do that they choose to interpret as a law against abortion but I do not agree that it means such in any which way
I whole-heartedly agree. Actually, this thread has thus far been refreshingly free of the typical misapplication of scripture. Instead, I see lots of emotional tirades that amount to nothing in terms of a fruitful discussion about the topic. It is just one of those things from which people cannot seem to detach emotionally.
Big-bri,
I have also struggled with some of the Scripture presented in support of pro-life (and I am very much in the pro-life camp). I also agree that it is difficult to detach emotionally from this issue because it involves life - what could be more emotional than that?
The issue of deciding who gets to live and who does not is very emotionally charged. I can't see how it can be otherwise.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 4:12:47 PM
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momfree
Posts: 144
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
No, it's your own words... You say your support the right of woman to abort a child, and in the next breath you say don't support abortion...
The RIGHT in question is the right to take life and in the case of abortion there is not just cause...
Really...Do you know that some laws of a country in the past included human sacrifice?
You should really consider putting more thought into the matter... The bible doesn't teach blind allegiance to the civil government...
Only if one convinces themselves of the following... What in the womb is not a life and that the bible is silent on the unjust taking of life...
Of course the of above begs the question regarding what you have previously posted....
Why post the following if you believe abortion is OK with God...
You view seems to jump back and forth...
Your mention of homosexuals isn't aligned with scripture, nor is your view regarding who is responsible for their sin... Your entire premise on the subject is sans any biblical reasoning and straight from secular reasoning... God's word is rather clear on what murder is, the unjust taking of life... An individual can only take life in the act of defending oneself, and the state can only do so to those justly accused. Beyond that taking life is a sin...
You can attempt to shoehorn abortion into that, but it won't and never will fit...
John
I don't advocate abortion, it is not pleasing, or something I would encourage and it saddens me and most every other pro-choice person out there. It is a tragedy, it's heartbreaking, nobody denies that!
It's also heartbreaking that there are rapists, or perverted men that rape their own blood or women period, it's tragic and heartbreaking that so many men run for the hills and leave women desserted to care for a pregancy and unwanted child. There are no "happy endings" here. It's the world we live in. But again, life outside the womb and a pregnancy aren't the same. Again....there is no CLEAR sciptural evidence to the contrary or about abortion. Oh, and about homosexualtiy which is off topic (another thread) I was talking about the right to adopt, not about the right/legality/morality of homosexuality itself.
We are lightyears away from human sacrifice, and it was done for vastly different reasons then the reasons for abortion. Which mainly is desperation, tragedy, sadness, and not knowing where to turn (yes there are those that take it lightly but I guarantee you this is the minority). And if God is so inclined and know He is all powerful then He must CERTAINLY can do what you can't.....and turn it around to be illegal...but so far, He hasn't. So far, I as a woman do NOT want women to go back to the days of alleys and coat hangers. Wanting it to remain safe and legal and respecting a womans right to choose does NOT, again I repeat, does NOT mean we advocate and support the act itself. You can agree to disagree at this point.
If an individual can only take a life while defeding themselves....if that is so....can we justify death penalty or war? Nope, you can't. Same thing. We condemn women who (mostly) are shamed, afraid, w/out recource, w/out money, w/out support, w/out help, w/out a way for doing what they believe is right for them, the unborn child and perhaps a family she already has and yet we applaud politicians making decisions to bomb and kill thousands of innocent people (along w/the bad guys) and wave our flag proudly saying "we should spread democracy all over the world"....well with that democracy comes the right to a woman's choice.
_____________________________
"Peace is the absence of anger"
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 4:17:44 PM
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big-bri
Posts: 598
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
The issue of deciding who gets to live and who does not is very emotionally charged. I can't see how it can be otherwise.
Well, it is also an issue of a woman's right to have control of her own body- at least that's how the pro-choice camp sees it.
Both issues are are difficult to remain detached about. However, I do manage.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 4:19:10 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 197
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: momfree
If an individual can only take a life while defeding themselves....if that is so....can we justify death penalty or war? Nope, you can't. Same thing. We condemn women who (mostly) are shamed, afraid, w/out recource, w/out money, w/out support, w/out help, w/out a way for doing what they believe is right for them, the unborn child and perhaps a family she already has and yet we applaud politicians making decisions to bomb and kill thousands of innocent people (along w/the bad guys) and wave our flag proudly saying "we should spread democracy all over the world"....well with that democracy comes the right to a woman's choice.
More smoke to cloud the issue! The death penalty and war are two other issues. Many pro-life advocates are all over the spectrum on these issues - just like pro-choicers.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 4:26:57 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 197
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
The issue of deciding who gets to live and who does not is very emotionally charged. I can't see how it can be otherwise.
Well, it is also an issue of a woman's right to have control of her own body- at least that's how the pro-choice camp sees it.
Both issues are are difficult to remain detached about. However, I do manage.
I guess I was much better at being detached before I became a father. That was a long time ago but I do recall being more sympathetic to the pro-choice camp before becoming a father than I am today. It was also after I became a father that I became a Christian and my feelings about beginning of life issues like abortion and end of life issues like euthanasia have changed quite a bit since then.
Although I believe a woman (or a man for that matter) should have a right concerning her body, it is the body of a fetus that is truly the subject of abortion. And no one wants to give the fetus any rights over his/her body. That is what makes it difficult to be emotionally detached for me.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 5:13:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2574
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quote:
I don't advocate abortion, it is not pleasing, or something I would encourage and it saddens me and most every other pro-choice person out there. It is a tragedy, it's heartbreaking, nobody denies that!
I recall you mentioning the bible is silent on abortion, so why all the talk of tragedy, heartbreak, God and consequences?
For the record you do support the RIGHT to abort...
Your words....
But, it is a women's right to choose I support.
I support her choice to choose to carry to term, to place for adoption, to raise the child or to terminate the pregnancy
I support the women's right to choose
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It's also heartbreaking that there are rapists, or perverted men that rape their own blood or women period, it's tragic and heartbreaking that so many men run for the hills and leave women desserted to care for a pregancy and unwanted child. There are no "happy endings" here. It's the world we live in.
You can paint the darkest picture you wish and it will never remove the fact that those who unjustly take the life of someone commit murder... In or outside the womb... Btw... I do believe those who men who run to the hills have blood on their hands as well..
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But again, life outside the womb and a pregnancy aren't the same.
Again....there is no CLEAR sciptural evidence to the contrary or about abortion.
Actually the bible is clear on there being life in the womb... As well when it suits the state it charges people with murder of those in the womb... Ask Scott Peterson who is serving time for the double murde of his wife and unborn child.
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Oh, and about homosexualtiy which is off topic (another thread) I was talking about the right to adopt, not about the right/legality/morality of homosexuality itself.
You talked about loving homes and such... So your mention of homosexual in the context you posted was favorable towards homosexual, which goes to your views having a far more secular foundation than any other....
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We are lightyears away from human sacrifice, and it was done for vastly different reasons then the reasons for abortion. Which mainly is desperation, tragedy, sadness, and not knowing where to turn (yes there are those that take it lightly but I guarantee you this is the minority).
Again, if they were truly the minority a million abortion wouldn't take place each and every year...
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And if God is so inclined and know He is all powerful then He must CERTAINLY can do what you can't.....and turn it around to be illegal...but so far, He hasn't.
Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because God does not punish sinners instantly, people feel it is safe to do wrong.
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So far, I as a woman do NOT want women to go back to the days of alleys and coat hangers. Wanting it to remain safe and legal and respecting a womans right to choose does NOT, again I repeat, does NOT mean we advocate and support the act itself. You can agree to disagree at this point.
Save and legal at the price of how many million babies? I belive it's over 40,000,000 and counting...
You can equivocate on the matter till the cows come home , but in the end you’ll be holding the door open for those who wish to unjustly take the life of an unborn child so that it's SAFE for them, but it's certainly not safe for the unborn child...
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If an individual can only take a life while defeding themselves....if that is so....can we justify death penalty or war?
Well for starters the state isn't a individual... The state is ordained by God to be the minister of God for those who do evil(Romans 13) and can justly take life, in the case of defending the nation, a country has the right to defend itself... Apples and oranges
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Nope, you can't. Same thing.
Yes I can, so you're wrong...An individual taking matters into their own hands is vengence... The state can justly take life of those who do evil and defend the nation against attack... An individual can defend themselves, but cannot take the law into their own hands... For instance one could take the life of a person if someone attempting to harm them, but could not after the fact take the life of the person....
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We condemn women
No... They are condemn by their own actions...
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who (mostly) are shamed, afraid, w/out recource, w/out money, w/out support, w/out help, w/out a way for doing what they believe is right for them, the unborn child and perhaps a family she already has and
Most abortions are after the fact birth control... And even if your right, it doesn't grant them the right to murder...
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yet we applaud politicians making decisions to bomb and kill thousands of innocent people (along w/the bad guys) and wave our flag proudly saying "we should spread democracy all over the world"....well with that democracy comes the right to a woman's choice.
We? Sorry... Your guilt be association theory won't fly here...I don't applaud politicians making decisions to bomb and kill thousands of innocent people... Btw... We are not a democracy, but (supposed to be)a representative republic with respect to the rule of law, not the mob...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 5:32:56 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 197
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Btw... We are not a democracy, but (supposed to be)a representative republic with respect to the rule of law, not the mob...
John
You are right, SoverignIsHe.
It was the mob-rule, or oligarchy, of the Supreme Court which legalized abortion in this country NOT our elected representatives - We have every right to lobby our elected representatives to change this law because we live in a representative republic.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 5:56:43 PM
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big-bri
Posts: 598
Joined: 5/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
And no one wants to give the fetus any rights over his/her body.
No fetus ever does, did, or ever will have any rights. Why? They have no choice. A fetus does not have the inherent right to good parents, good genes, a good home, or a life worth living.
My child apparently had no rights to good health and was born with multiple birth defects.
Where were his rights?
quote:
ORIGNIAL: SovereignIsHe
We are not a democracy, but (supposed to be)a representative republic
 Oh, brother!
Do we elect our representatives by popular vote? Yes? Well then, guess what- we live in a democracy.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 6:18:30 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 197
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
And no one wants to give the fetus any rights over his/her body.
No fetus ever does, did, or ever will have any rights. Why? They have no choice. A fetus does not have the inherent right to good parents, good genes, a good home, or a life worth living.
While it is true that we have no choice as to whom we are born or into what circumstances, that does not preclude certain inherent rights held by all human beings... Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
What happens to those inherent rights when the child is aborted?
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My child apparently had no rights to good health and was born with multiple birth defects.
Where were his rights?
Big-bri, I want you to know that my prayers are truly with you, your child, and the rest of your family as you face extrordinary challenges that the vast majority of people will never be faced with. I can only say that perhaps it was in God's sovereign wisdom that he placed that special child in your loving care. I have been blessed to have three very healthy children so I can't truly relate with you - but I can relate in a very small way with your child. I also was born with extraordinary challenges which would have been compounded greatly if it were not for the love and guidance of my mother and father. Of course I wish my body could function as normally as my parents or even as my children but that was not God's will. It has taken many years for me to accept this the way I do now - without bitterness or anger - but I have come to believe this is what faith is all about - believing that God has a purpose in all of this and just placing my trust in Him even though I don't understand.
God bless you and your family,
Dubya
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 6:30:39 PM
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big-bri
Posts: 598
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
While it is true that we have no choice as to whom we are born or into what circumstances, that does not preclude certain inherent rights held by all human beings... Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
While this phrase from the Declaration of Independence is admirable and readily recognizable, people throughout time have lived their lives without having these "rights" enumerated nor recognized by anyone.
What are rights?: they are ideals to be attained to; they are not the reality of nature.
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Big-bri, I want you to know that my prayers are truly with you, your child, and the rest of your family as you face extrordinary challenges that the vast majority of people will never be faced with.
Thank you. I truly appreciate your kind thoughts.
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I can only say that perhaps it was in God's sovereign wisdom that he placed that special child in your loving care.
Actually, I do believe this. Why me, I don't know, but as long as God knows, that is good enough.
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I also was born with extraordinary challenges
And my prayers go out for you, my friend. You also give me hope for my kid's future. Thanks.
But this still brings us back to the main point: we are talking about inherent human rights, yet isn't it painfully obvious that everyone does not share the same degree of rights?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 6:47:37 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 197
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
But this still brings us back to the main point: we are talking about inherent human rights, yet isn't it painfully obvious that everyone does not share the same degree of rights?
Yes, it is painfully obvious indeed. But as you pointed out in the preamble to the Declaration of Independence - they are ideals to be strived for. Yes, indeed, many of our citizens have either been denied those rights or never had them to begin with - should we then stop striving for these ideals? Has there not been advances made in many areas of civil rights? Why are the civil rights for those so vulnerable being denied so flippantly?
Believe me, I understand that many, many women agonize over their decision to abort - many, however do not. To me, as heart-rending as this is, it is really irrelevant to the fact that the result of the abortion is the denial of a person's life. If we regard that pre-born life with such little value, how about the life of a stroke victim who cannot speak for himself. or the thousands of elderly who are no longer capable of making day-to-day decisions about their own life. Of course it is not as easy to be so flippant about a life which has already been born - yet there are those among us who would remove the right to life of these very people under the pretext of "death with dignity".
As I have noted from many of your posts, you are a bit cautious or maybe even suspicious of the intentions of those who label themselves "conservatives" or "republicans" - well I am equally suspicious of anyone who would deny life to one person for the convenience of another - this is how I view both abortion and euthanasia. I don't consider anyone, conservative or liberal, republican or democrat, qualified to make those life decisions for me. In forming my opinion of abortion I guess I project those personal opinions on the life being aborted or euthanized. You might think that is a bit silly or extreme but considering my own life and background that is how I think.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 6:53:45 PM
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big-bri
Posts: 598
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
If we lived in a true Democracy laws and initiatives wouldn’t have to pass Constitutional law... As well, the people, not representatives would vote on each and every item...
You are describing a direct democracy, which is certainly not the only form of a "true" democracy. Our representatives are elected by the people, therefore our republic is still a democracy.
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ORIGINAL: Dubya
Yes, indeed, many of our citizens have either been denied those rights or never had them to begin with - should we then stop striving for these ideals?
No, however we should stop refering to them as if they were hard, cold, universal laws. Ideals are not laws.
Fetuses do not have rights. We may bestow upon them certain ideals and standards, but they have nothing inherently.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 6:55:12 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2574
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
quote:
And no one wants to give the fetus any rights over his/her body.
No fetus ever does, did, or ever will have any rights. Why? They have no choice. A fetus does not have the inherent right to good parents, good genes, a good home, or a life worth living.
Actually the state at time does grant "rights" to the unborn... Scott Peterson is serving time for double murder, that of his wife and unborn child...
quote:
My child apparently had no rights to good health and was born with multiple birth defects.
Where were his rights?
Certainly your child had the right to live in regards that nobody has the right to unjustly take his/her life, and is no less a gift of God than a perfectly healthy child... I am sure your love and devotion to him/her is an awesome testimony to God and serves His Kingdom since all things work for the good of those who love the Lord...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 7:06:05 PM
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SonInMe1
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From: my mom by God
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Sin has consequences. When you seek to take the consequences away but not the sin, you make the sin easier to accomplish and even encourage it.
In outlawing abortion, we define abortion as a wrong, a big enough wrong that it should be outlawed. Like many pro abortionists argue that abortion is a free will choice under lawful abortion, so is abortion a free will choice under illegal abortion. So if someone undertakes a procedure like this knowing it is illegal then, they shall reap what they sow.
Abortion and war are not even close to being the same. One is killing and the other is murder. There are clear biblical differences between the two.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 7:13:58 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 197
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Abortion and war are not even close to being the same. One is killing and the other is murder. There are clear biblical differences between the two.
SonInMe1,
I agree with just about everything you have written on this subject but I do question categorizing abortion with muder in every case (almost every case, yes, but not absolutely every case).
For example, if a decision had to be made in which only the mother or the child would live - isn't that a case in which either decision results in the loss of a life? Yet, either way, would this constitute a murder? What if the decision were made to abort the baby so the mother could live? Is that still murder? What if a conscious decision were made to take the life of the mother so the baby could live - is that murder?
This is the only situation in which I could conceivably support an abortion. BTW, this would have been legal even before Roe v Wade!
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 7:21:03 PM
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gmax
Posts: 165
Joined: 8/21/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
Fetuses do not have rights. We may bestow upon them certain ideals and standards, but they have nothing inherently.
If the fetus is a human being, then it has the same rights as you or I. Do you have the right to not be murdered?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 7:23:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2574
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I agree with just about everything you have written on this subject but I do question categorizing abortion with muder in every case (almost every case, yes, but not absolutely every case).
For example, if a decision had to be made in which only the mother or the child would live - isn't that a case in which either decision results in the loss of a life? Yet, either way, would this constitute a murder? What if the decision were made to abort the baby so the mother could live? Is that still murder? What if a conscious decision were made to take the life of the mother so the baby could live - is that murder?
The mother giving up her life for her child can never be seen as murder... As for taking the life of the child to save the mother... What just cause are you taking the life of the child with? Attempted murder?
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 7:28:30 PM
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gmax
Posts: 165
Joined: 8/21/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
I agree with just about everything you have written on this subject but I do question categorizing abortion with muder in every case (almost every case, yes, but not absolutely every case).
For example, if a decision had to be made in which only the mother or the child would live - isn't that a case in which either decision results in the loss of a life? Yet, either way, would this constitute a murder? What if the decision were made to abort the baby so the mother could live? Is that still murder? What if a conscious decision were made to take the life of the mother so the baby could live - is that murder?
The mother giving up her life for her child can never be seen as murder... As for taking the life of the child to save the mother... What just cause are you taking the life of the child with? Attempted murder?
John
I think I see Dubya's point here. What if the mother has what is called a 'tubal pregnancy', where the fertalized egg has implanted itself in the falopian tube. If the baby is not removed, then both the mother and the baby will die. What do you chose there?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 7:30:29 PM
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big-bri
Posts: 598
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Actually the state at time does grant "rights" to the unborn
But I specifically said inherent rights . . . that is different.
quote:
Certainly your child had the right to live
Actually, were it not for the valiant efforts of some skilled surgeons, my child would not have survived his own birth. This is what I mean by inherent "rights": his only inherent right was the right to die of a severe heart defect (among other things).
quote:
I am sure your love and devotion to him/her is an awesome testimony to God and serves His Kingdom since all things work for the good of those who love the Lord...
I am trusting that what you say is true.
Btw, in case you are wondering, I would not have rathered that he had been aborted. I thank God that it was possible for him to be redeemd from his natural condition via corrective surgery.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 7:35:06 PM
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big-bri
Posts: 598
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmax
If the fetus is a human being, then it has the same rights as you or I.
This is like saying that all humans are created equal: ideally this is a noble morality, but it does not reflect reality.
quote:
Do you have the right to not be murdered?
No, I do not. The law provides punishment for the would-be murderer, but it cannot guarantee me the right to not have it happen.
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