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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 7:44:40 PM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
And it is in these ideal noble moralities that the pro-life advocates have the basis of their argument and would like to codify into law.
Abortion already is codified by law. It isn't carte blanche.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 7:50:46 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Actually the state at time does grant "rights" to the unborn
But I specifically said inherent rights . . . that is different.
Our rights are said to be upheld by the law of the land, not found in them, that they come from a higher source... That's what I am speaking to...
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I am sure your love and devotion to him/her is an awesome testimony to God and serves His Kingdom since all things work for the good of those who love the Lord...
I am trusting that what you say is true.
Don't trust me, trust His word... 
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
John 9:1-9. And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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Btw, in case you are wondering, I would not have rathered that he had been aborted. I thank God that it was possible for him to survive his natural condition via corrective surgery.
I thank God he moved your and the heart of your wife to bring your child into the world to serve the Lord... Your mercy towards your child in such a difficult time will not go unrewarded...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 7:53:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
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If the fetus is a human being, then it has the same rights as you or I.
This is like saying that all humans are created equal: ideally this is a noble morality, but it does not reflect reality.
Actually it's true in the sense that all man are subject to the fall and in equal need of God's mercy...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 8:35:32 PM
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big-bri
Posts: 598
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Our rights are said to be upheld by the law of the land, not found in them, that they come from a higher source... That's what I am speaking to...
And from the multi-various levels of human condition from their conception on, I see the higher source as being equally varied in regard to inherent rights.
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Don't trust me, trust His word
Alright, then. Thanks for the scriptural encouragement, too.
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I thank God he moved your and the heart of your wife to bring your child into the world to serve the Lord... Your mercy towards your child in such a difficult time will not go unrewarded...
Thanks for your kind regards- I mean that. Bless you.
Why God chose a wretch like me for this assignment, I'll never understand. But I am not sorry; I love that kid.
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ORIGINAL: Dubya
Isn't it nearly carte blanche in most states?
No. Anything short of a medical procedure performed by a licenced professional is illegal. Also, anything beyond the first trimeseter needs to be under dire circumstances. States vary greatly on other details as well; this could hardly be construed as a blank check for just anyone to have any kind of abortion that they so choose.
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What effective limitations are there across the nation?
Recently, South Dakota has placed some of the most stringent restrictions on record: unless a woman's life is endangered, abortion is technically illegal there.
Other states could follow this precedence.
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And an even better question, which limitations currently codified are not under attack by the ACLU, NARAL, and Planned Parenthood?
Actually, these organizations are fighting to keep the laws the same and not give way to greater restrictions.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/26/2006 9:09:32 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 199
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Isn't it nearly carte blanche in most states?
No. Anything short of a medical procedure performed by a licenced professional is illegal. Also, anything beyond the first trimeseter needs to be under dire circumstances. States vary greatly on other details as well; this could hardly be construed as a blank check for just anyone to have any kind of abortion that they so choose.
I understand your point now. Well, of course I would expect a licensed medical professional to be the abortionist. And I recall the first trimester being the limitation according to Roe V Wade, but I was under the impression that in many states later abortions had become legal. What was all the debate over partial birth abortions about? Those were certainly well beyond first trimester. Every state which passed laws against that procedure had NARAL and PP taking them to court.
Also, every parental notification law has been opposed by those groups.
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What effective limitations are there across the nation?
Recently, South Dakota has placed some of the most stringent restrictions on record: unless a woman's life is endangered, abortion is technically illegal there.
Other states could follow this precedence.
This is good. I hope it withstands the legal challenges which will most certainly be brought against it.
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And an even better question, which limitations currently codified are not under attack by the ACLU, NARAL, and Planned Parenthood?
Actually, these organizations are fighting to keep the laws the same and not give way to greater restrictions.
Actually, as I noted above, any restrictions on partial birth abortion and parental notification laws have been opposed. Maybe this is what you mean by "not giving way to greater restrictions".
It seems to me that the abortion business, since the Roe V Wade decision, has evolved to include more liberal access and later term abortions than under the original decision. Maybe that is not true in all states - but listening to the national debate - as well as the debate in Texas - that appears to be the case.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 6:58:33 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3683
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From: my mom by God
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quote:
For example, if a decision had to be made in which only the mother or the child would live - isn't that a case in which either decision results in the loss of a life?
As i have stated before in the vast majority of cases...and I do believe it is all cases, when a pregnancy threatens the life of the mother, the fetus is not viable. That means the fetus will die anyways. To abort a fetus that is going to die anyways is not murder.
95% of all aboprtions are for convienence. Of the 5% that are not, they include, life of the mother, incest and rape. Even if we pared the law down to incest rape and life of the mother we would be eliminating 95% of all abortions.
I think that is a compromise I could deal with....for now.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 10:26:19 AM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
What was all the debate over partial birth abortions about?
That was about what I refered to: abortions performed past the first trimester as a result of dire circumstances. Sometimes these "partial birth abortions", a.k.a. dilation and evacuation, and a second method called dilation and extraction, are performed under questionable degrees of dire. In other words, the life of the mother is often times not necessarily at risk. Therefore, the ban was introduced to prevent D & E, and D & X procedures from being used as birth control like first trimester abortions sometimes are.
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Those were certainly well beyond first trimester. Every state which passed laws against that procedure had NARAL and PP taking them to court.
That is because they are challenging the wordy and vague nature of the ban. The ban is largely a moral diatribe more than it is a clearly defined law.
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Also, every parental notification law has been opposed by those groups.
I do not believe that parent notification was a stipulation of Roe v Wade; it is one of many ex post facto restrictions on Roe v Wade.
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This is good. I hope it withstands the legal challenges which will most certainly be brought against it.
It will likely become yet another state/federal jurisdiction dispute. This was actually settled clear back in the Civil War, but the need to revisit it crops up again and again.
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Actually, as I noted above, any restrictions on partial birth abortion and parental notification laws have been opposed. Maybe this is what you mean by "not giving way to greater restrictions".
Yes, exactly. They see parent notification and the partial birth ban as ways to erode the Roe v Wade decision. They are probably right.
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It seems to me that the abortion business, since the Roe V Wade decision, has evolved to include more liberal access and later term abortions than under the original decision.
The way that I see it, these issues were largely unaddressed in Roe v Wade, although I am sure that pro-choice pundits would disagree with me. They might argue that since Roe v Wade was a general confirmation of the right for a woman to opt for a medical abortion, there is no reason to question particular clinical procedures.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 12:27:00 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
Also, every parental notification law has been opposed by those groups.
I do not believe that parent notification was a stipulation of Roe v Wade; it is one of many ex post facto restrictions on Roe v Wade.
I didn't think parental notification or the right of a minor to have an abortion without parent's consent was ever addressed in Roe V Wade. If I am right, then abortions on minors without parental consent was a liberalization of the law.
The point, as I see it, is that parents are charged with the protection of their children in every facet with this one exception. Parental notification does not instantly mean those minors will never get their abortion - it only brings the parents into the loop - which they should be. To be perfectly honest, I believe NARAL and PP are afraid that maybe some small number of abortions may be prevented - and they don't like that!
In my opinion, the entire abortion industry is not only immoral but deceptive in the way they promote their business. The simple fact that they want to exclude parents from the medical decision making on their minor daughters is just such an example. An argument can be made (which I don't agree with) that an adult woman has the right to say what happens to her body in regards to abortion - but NARAL or PP has NO right, in my opinion, to make that decision regarding a minor girl. ALL medical decisions regarding children should be decided by parents - including abortion!
In fact, I see a little hypocrisy in this part of the abortion debate. Pro-choice advocates say a woman should have all the rights concerning the child within them - yet do not extend those same rights to parents of an already born child.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 12:54:37 PM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
I didn't think parental notification or the right of a minor to have an abortion without parent's consent was ever addressed in Roe V Wade.
That's what I was saying.
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If I am right, then abortions on minors without parental consent was a liberalization of the law.
Is it "liberalization" to not read ex post facto exclusion of minors into the Roe v Wade decision?
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To be perfectly honest, I believe NARAL and PP are afraid that maybe some small number of abortions may be prevented - and they don't like that!
Why? What is your rationale behind this statement?
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ALL medical decisions regarding children should be decided by parents - including abortion!
Why?
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Pro-choice advocates say a woman should have all the rights concerning the child within them - yet do not extend those same rights to parents of an already born child.
Look, at some point every "already born child" starts making their own decisions for themselves. Don't you find it a little hypocritical to say that a girl old enough to conceive, give birth to, nurse, and raise a baby can also not be old enough to decide whether or not to have it in the first place?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 1:00:21 PM
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jfwink
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To answer the question, I would say yes, of course. But I would quickly add that a Christian that supports abortion rights in my opinion is woefully misguided.
James
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 1:11:52 PM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfwink
To answer the question, I would say yes, of course. But I would quickly add that a Christian that supports abortion rights in my opinion is woefully misguided.
Actually, I also think it misguided to not distinguish between an act, and the right to an act. You can be against the act while recognizing another person's right to do it, and you can do so without compromising your Christianity.
To use a different example, I am content with my right to own firearms, even though I have no intention of actually getting one. I am also satifsifed with other people having this same right, but I do not want to compell them to own guns, or to not own them. I also do not agree with gun-advocates' interpretation of the 2nd amendment even though I agree that the freedom of choice should exist.
Let's not get into 2nd amendment issues here, though . . . that was just an example of being against something while at the same time recognizing somebody else's right to do it.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 1:25:18 PM
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jfwink
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So it's ok for a Christian to support the right to the act, but not the act itself. That could be a valid point if the act weren't the taking of an innocent life.
James
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 1:34:59 PM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfwink
That could be a valid point if the act weren't the taking of an innocent life.
Innocent people died in the Iraq war, and the Israeli/Hezbollah conflict, yet some Christians were supportive of these actions.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 1:41:19 PM
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jfwink
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Apples and oranges friend.
James
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 1:49:31 PM
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stampinlady
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Yes. We all grow at different speeds and this is an issue that's been pounded into our brains for years. I was ok with it untill the Holy Spirit changed my thinking.
_____________________________
Deb
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 2:12:18 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 199
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
If I am right, then abortions on minors without parental consent was a liberalization of the law.
Is it "liberalization" to not read ex post facto exclusion of minors into the Roe v Wade decision?
There was no "ex post facto exclusion". It was never addressed! In just about every place I have ever been in America, parents must be notified of any medical procedures on their minor children. If this law was intended to circumvent parents, which is extraordinary, it seems to me it would have been explicitly addressed.
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To be perfectly honest, I believe NARAL and PP are afraid that maybe some small number of abortions may be prevented - and they don't like that!
Why? What is your rationale behind this statement?
My rationale is simply this: There is no other reason to oppose parental notification laws. What are the possible outcomes of a parent being notified? Either they will allow the abortion or they will not! If they allow the abortion NARAL is happy. If the parents decide their daughter should give birth - there is no abortion.
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ALL medical decisions regarding children should be decided by parents - including abortion!
Why?
Society, in general, has recognized that parents have their children's best interest at heart and are more capable of making these decisions than PP, NARAL, or their minor daughter. Are you suggesting that parents should be responsible for certain aspects of their childrens lives but not others? If so, where is that line of responsibility drawn? In many states, parents can even be held criminally responsible for deliquent actions of their children - yet PP can perform an abortion without the parents even knowing? Sounds very inconsistent to me.
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Pro-choice advocates say a woman should have all the rights concerning the child within them - yet do not extend those same rights to parents of an already born child.
Look, at some point every "already born child" starts making their own decisions for themselves. Don't you find it a little hypocritical to say that a girl old enough to conceive, give birth to, nurse, and raise a baby can also not be old enough to decide whether or not to have it in the first place?
Of course the maturing and training which takes place as our children grow up prepares them to make their own decisions. Many parents begin by allowing their minor children to begin making important decisions well before they reach the age of maturity. I have no problem with that since that is the way my wife and I have raised our children. When it comes to important medical decisions, such as abortion, I would expect the parents to be involved in the decision process in order to guide and direct their child. The child's ability to procreate has absolutely nothing to do with her emotional maturity to make an informed decision in this kind of matter. If this is allowed, where would you draw the line?
Another question I have regarding children who have abortions, who pays for it? Presumably the pregnant girl is not employed and as much as PP loves to end pregnancies, I don't think these procedures are done for free. Is the answer to hold her parents financially responsible? - yet keep them in the dark until after the abortion is performed?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 2:19:59 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 2938
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quote:
Actually, I also think it misguided to not distinguish between an act, and the right to an act. You can be against the act while recognizing another person's right to do it, and you can do so without compromising your Christianity.
I think it's misguided to not mention that when a person exercises the right to abort they are unjustly taking a life. So we have a case where a Christians are supporting the right for others to take life without just cause. That can't help put compromie one's Christianity... The Jews and the Roman had no right to take life unjustly, that was their sin regarding Christ, regardless that their respected laws deemed otherwise...
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To use a different example, I am content with my right to own firearms, even though I have no intention of actually getting one. I am also satifsifed with other people having this same right, but I do not want to compell them to own guns, or to not own them. I also do not agree with gun-advocates' interpretation of the 2nd amendment even though I agree that the freedom of choice should exist.
Let's not get into 2nd amendment issues here, though . . . that was just an example of being against something while at the same time recognizing somebody else's right to do it.
When one exercises their 2nd Amendment rights they don't unjustly take another person's life so your example doesn't quite crossover... There is nothing unjust regarding the 2nd Amendment, while the same can't be said of the right to abort...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 2:24:21 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
ORIGINAL: jfwink
That could be a valid point if the act weren't the taking of an innocent life.
Innocent people died in the Iraq war, and the Israeli/Hezbollah conflict, yet some Christians were supportive of these actions.
Not defending the taking of innocent life in war, but in the case of abortion the sole purpose it to take innocent life, everytime...
John
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 7:38:07 PM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfwink
Apples and oranges friend.
If apples = innocent life, and oranges = innocent life, then you are correct.
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ORIGINAL: Dubya
There was no "ex post facto exclusion". It was never addressed!
The ex post facto exclusion is in saying that Roe v Wade deosn't apply to minors. Like you said, the decision didn't even address minors.
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If this law was intended to circumvent parents, which is extraordinary, it seems to me it would have been explicitly addressed.
We have already determined that Roe v Wade never intended to "circumvent" parents, but rather did not address the issue of minors/parental consent at all.
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What are the possible outcomes of a parent being notified?
Wrong question. What groups like NARAL and PP are asking is, "What if you deny a minor the right to decide for herself?" The outcome is pregnant girls running away from their parents rather than asking for their help, and grandparents having more of a say over a baby's life than its own mother.
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If they allow the abortion NARAL is happy.
Again I ask you, on what basis are you claiming that abortions make them happy? This sounds more like characterized villification than anything factual.
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Society, in general, has recognized that parents have their children's best interest at heart
Since when has "society" decided this? Before or after the Child Protection Act? Before or after they formed Child Protection Services? Before or after they formed the NSPCC? Before or after alarming child abuse statistics that is just the tip of the iceberg for unreported instances, not to mention parents who are simply too hard on their children verbally and emotionally.
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Are you suggesting that parents should be responsible for certain aspects of their childrens lives but not others?
Once kids attain a certain age, yes. You can't control all apsects of their lives up until the magic age of eighteen, or twenty one, and then turn around and tell them, "Congratulations! after controlling you for all of your life, we are setting you free to go make decisions for yourself from now on . . ."
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In many states, parents can even be held criminally responsible for deliquent actions of their children - yet PP can perform an abortion without the parents even knowing?
Neither pregnancy nor abortion are crimes for which the parents can be held accountable.
Btw, the chief reason that parents can be held accountable for their minor children's mischief lay in having the assets that their kids lack to pay punitive & compensatory damages.
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When it comes to important medical decisions, such as abortion, I would expect the parents to be involved in the decision process in order to guide and direct their child.
Why?
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The child's ability to procreate has absolutely nothing to do with her emotional maturity to make an informed decision in this kind of matter
So we should always assume that every pregnant girl is lacking in emotional maturity, that every girl's parents possess emotional maturity, and also assume that said emotional maturity is what equips anyone with the ability to make an informed decision?
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If this is allowed, where would you draw the line?
If what is allowed?
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Another question I have regarding children who have abortions, who pays for it?
I must admit, I have no idea. But I must say that in a discussion so laden with deep moral and legal implications, I find the question rather trifling.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 7:50:20 PM
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big-bri
Posts: 598
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I think it's misguided to not mention that when a person exercises the right to abort they are unjustly taking a life.
What does "unjustly" mean to you?
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When one exercises their 2nd Amendment rights they don't unjustly take another person's life so your example doesn't quite crossover
It does in two ways:
1. I don't advocate anyone's rights dictated to them, or me, in such a personal, specific manner based strictly on somebody else's personal feelings.
2. I can disagree with the courts' interpretation of the Constitution, yet recognize their legal authority to decide in these matters.
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Not defending the taking of innocent life in war, but in the case of abortion the sole purpose it to take innocent life, everytime...
But as long as you don't take innocent life every time, then it's all good?
What if someone aborts a deranged, potential serial killer: is that life innocent?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 7:54:06 PM
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jfwink
Posts: 330
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From: Arizona
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big-bri: apples = the topic which is abortion; oranges = the war in Iraq, the state of Israel.
I think the bottom line is that supporting the right for people to kill their own children is in conflict with God's law (Exodus 20:13.)
James
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 8:07:24 PM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfwink
I think the bottom line is that supporting the right for people to kill their own children is in conflict with God's law (Exodus 20:13.)
Come again?-
check out Deuteronomy 21:18-21 and justify your quote against what it says.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 8:31:00 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 199
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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big-bri,
We both agree that Roe V Wade did not address the right of a minor to get an abortion. If I understand correctly, you say that since those rights were not addressed, and hence not specifically denied, that to deny them to a minor would be an "ex post facto" denial of certain rights. I am coming from the point of view that since the case specifically involved an adult woman - not a minor - that the same right for a minor should not necessarily be assumed. Maybe my reasoning in this regard is flawed - I just see it as coming from an opposing view. Generally rights reserved to those of a certain age are generally spelled out in the laws - driving, drinking, voting, etc.
Yes, I admit my statement:quote:
If they allow the abortion NARAL is happy. does serve to villify the organization but, as I understand it, their purpose is to promote abortion rights. A parent denying their child permission to have an abortion would be counter to their stated purpose. If the parents allowed their child an abortion, NARAL would be happy not because they are "blood-thirsty" but because the child's choice to have an abortion was honored.
The issue of parental control is one where we are probably also coming from opposite sides of the argument but can still see where the other is coming from. As I understand your comments, you seem to be saying that not all parents make good, mature decisions for their teen-age daughters. And that some parents may explode in a rage against their daughter if they learned she was pregnant, resulting in potential physical harm. I can't deny these are legitamate concerns. I am coming from the point of view that most parents are mature, genuinely concerned adults who want the best for their daughter and only want to find the best way to help their underage, unwed daughter out of a bad situation. Even in good family situations like that, teenagers are quick to assume that their parents will "explode" when in reality they wouldn't. It is cases like this that I would want the parents to be informed before any medical procedure is performed. My biggest objection, as a father, is that my daughter might be getting counselled from someone assuming I would be abusive if I learned she was pregnant - and then persuaded to get an abortion in order to stay in school and not ruin her future. I think that as a good father, I deserve that consideration and PP or NARAL do not have the right to deny me that consideration.
There must be statistics which would validate one side or the other on this parental consent debate but I must confess I do not know about any, if they exist.
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You can't control all apsects of their lives up until the magic age of eighteen, or twenty one, and then turn around and tell them, "Congratulations! after controlling you for all of your life, we are setting you free to go make decisions for yourself from now on . . ."
I agree but in reality, isn't that the way much of our society operates? Take drinking for instance, once a kid hits that majic age we tell him he is free to drink and we expect he will be mature enough to handle that freedom. Many do, but many, tragically, do not. The only thing parents can do is to set a good example and talk about it long before he reaches that age. Not always effective I admit - but what is the alternative? - abolishing all age restrictions?
I apologize for throwing out the discussion of "Who pays?" I agree it is a little trifling in a discussion of deep moral and legal issues. I think you understand my point, however weak it may be, that it seems like PP wants to give minor girls abortions while demanding that the parents pay for it. It really is a trifling point when compared to the deeper moral issues.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 8:39:28 PM
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jfwink
Posts: 330
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: Arizona
Status: offline
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Apples and oranges again. Are you saying that you don't agree with the 10 commandments? Or that the Bible contradicts itself?
I should've added innocent children to my earlier post, sorry.
James
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