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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 10:02:20 PM
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big-bri
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
I am coming from the point of view that since the case specifically involved an adult woman - not a minor - that the same right for a minor should not necessarily be assumed. Maybe my reasoning in this regard is flawed
Not necessarily. I would say that there are those who would argue that the lack of wording dealing with minors in the Roe v Wade decision is one of its failures as a standard to determine abortion policy across the board. After all, it could be argued that the Roe v Wade decision was for one specific case, and as such it is incomplete in and of itself to settle the whole issue of abortion once and for all.
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Yes, I admit my statement: "If they allow the abortion NARAL is happy" does serve to villify the organization but, as I understand it, their purpose is to promote abortion rights.
And among those rights that they champion is a woman's right to a safe, clinical abortion by a certified professional if she so chooses. But far from wringing their hands with impish delight at abortion procedures, NARAL's website also states, "it's critical to promote policies that help prevent unintended pregnancies and make abortion less necessary".
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If the parents allowed their child an abortion, NARAL would be happy not because they are "blood-thirsty" but because the child's choice to have an abortion was honored.
This is basically true, but because they consider the unacceptable (for them) possible consequences of the minor's lack of choice.
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I am coming from the point of view that most parents are mature, genuinely concerned adults who want the best for their daughter and only want to find the best way to help their underage, unwed daughter out of a bad situation.
I am curious: how did you arrive at your point of view?
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My biggest objection, as a father, is that my daughter might be getting counselled from someone assuming I would be abusive if I learned she was pregnant - and then persuaded to get an abortion in order to stay in school and not ruin her future.
I would think that when counseling the girl they would attempt first to determine if the parents could, in fact, be trusted to be brought into the situation. I know that is what I would do.
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I think that as a good father, I deserve that consideration and PP or NARAL do not have the right to deny me that consideration.
I doubt that they would want to deny you anything out of spite, but they would definitely favor your daughter's plight over your concerns.
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There must be statistics which would validate one side or the other on this parental consent debate but I must confess I do not know about any, if they exist.
There is some, but unbaised information is very hard to come by on this topic. If you want, I could pm you a link to a pretty good overview on the pros and cons of parental consent with footnotes of possible leads for more internet research.
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I agree but in reality, isn't that the way much of our society operates? . . . Not always effective I admit - but what is the alternative? - abolishing all age restrictions?
Where this issue is concerned, age is not a realistic determining factor. What good would it do to try to enforce a restriction like "No having babies until you're eighteen"? How do you respond to a violation of this kind of restriction? Jail? Probation?
This just won't work.
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I think you understand my point, however weak it may be, that it seems like PP wants to give minor girls abortions while demanding that the parents pay for it.
Some chapters actually find ways to cover the cost themselves.
< Message edited by big-bri -- 12/27/2006 10:07:46 PM >
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 10:06:47 PM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfwink
Are you saying that you don't agree with the 10 commandments? Or that the Bible contradicts itself?
No, I am saying that you were incorrect when you stated, "I think the bottom line is that supporting the right for people to kill their own children is in conflict with God's law". God's law does permit killing one's child under certain circumstances (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 10:34:56 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 530
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
I am coming from the point of view that most parents are mature, genuinely concerned adults who want the best for their daughter and only want to find the best way to help their underage, unwed daughter out of a bad situation.
I am curious: how did you arrive at your point of view?
This is the way my parents were and most parents I knew as I was growing up. It is also my perception of my peers. I have not personally known abusive parents or personally witnessed abuse but I realize there is plenty of them out there. It is not that I have lived a "privileged life", maybe just a blessed life.
quote:
There is some, but unbaised information is very hard to come by on this topic. If you want, I could pm you a link to a pretty good overview on the pros and cons of parental consent with footnotes of possible leads for more internet research.
That would be nice. Thank you.
quote:
Where this issue is concerned, age is not a realistic determining factor. What good would it do to try to enforce a restriction like "No having babies until you're eighteen"? How do you respond to a violation of this kind of restriction? Jail? Probation?
This just won't work.
Not sure there is as much concern about having babies as there is for abortions - but I get your point.
Still, just as you have said before about respecting the rights of a woman to choose but not necessarily endorsing abortion. I believe the legality of abortion (as we have now) is society's implicit endorsement of abortion. In other words, I don't see that the views you have shared are held widely by the public. I believe that much of the public, by virtue of the legal status of abortion, consider that choice to be a moral one.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 10:54:53 PM
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jfwink
Posts: 325
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: Arizona
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big bri: I think you are avoiding the issue that is abortion and that it's wrong for a Christian to support abortion rights.
James
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/27/2006 11:00:50 PM
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brooklynsblessed1
Posts: 3847
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfwink
big bri: I think you are avoiding the issue that is abortion and that it's wrong for a Christian to support abortion rights.
James
To support abortion rights & even candidates that support abortion rights is to have blood on one's hands...
_____________________________
BROOKLYN'S BLURBS..Check Us Out W/ Your Morning Joe..& Before You Say Your Prayers @ Night:
Could Obama strike down all state pro-life laws?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 12:55:50 AM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
I believe that much of the public, by virtue of the legal status of abortion, consider that choice to be a moral one.
It is, no matter how you slice it. But the moral imperatives are not only present in abortion itself, but also in our attitudes about restricting other people's decisions. There is no clear-cut compromise between being for/against abortion, and being for/against another's choice to do something that we don't agree with.
There is a saying that goes something like, "I think that you are making a big mistake, but I would fight for your right to make that mistake". In this case, the "mistake" of abortion is an anathema to those who put the interests of the unborn first, and conversely the "mistake" of the abridgement of the mother's right to choose is an anathema to those who put individual liberties first. It is hard to fight for someone else's right to do something that we believe to be morally wrong, and that sword cuts both ways.
I guess if there is one position that I always take, it is always to oppose people (this is not you, Dubya) who use the bible- my bible- as justification for views that I do not agree with, and then tell me that I am not a real Christian if I don't agree with them. Restricting a woman's right to choose birth or abortion is one thing, but restricting my interpretation of my own faith is too close to home for me. Call me selfish, but don't call me a non-Christian.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 12:58:37 AM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfwink
I think you are avoiding the issue that is abortion and that it's wrong for a Christian to support abortion rights.
I'm not avoiding it; I just happen to not agree with you whole-heartedly. Can you live with that?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 1:22:58 AM
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ljmac
Posts: 1111
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: online
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That isn't exactly the right question. Instead ask:
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human dismemberment?
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human disembowlment?
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human decapitation?
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human brain extraction?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 1:56:03 AM
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brooklynsblessed1
Posts: 3847
Joined: 5/21/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
That isn't exactly the right question. Instead ask:
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human dismemberment?
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human disembowlment?
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human decapitation?
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human brain extraction?
NO....
_____________________________
BROOKLYN'S BLURBS..Check Us Out W/ Your Morning Joe..& Before You Say Your Prayers @ Night:
Could Obama strike down all state pro-life laws?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 5:52:23 AM
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gmax
Posts: 163
Joined: 8/21/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
That isn't exactly the right question. Instead ask:
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human dismemberment?
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human disembowlment?
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human decapitation?
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human brain extraction?
I hope not.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 6:26:30 AM
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gentlefriend
Posts: 23
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From: Massachusetts
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Just to put another wrinkle on the conversation. How can the Government say Abortion is legal, but charge a person who killed a pregnant women, such as the Lacy Peterson case, or near my area a drunk driver, with double homicide for the pregnant mother and the unborn child? If they can do that, then why can they not charge all the mothers who abort with murder of the unborn child?
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 8:57:29 AM
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jfwink
Posts: 325
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: Arizona
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big bri: Yes I can live with that...
James
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 9:57:05 AM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
That isn't exactly the right question. Instead ask:
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human dismemberment?
Yes; when done as a medical procedure, this is known as "amputation" and can be necessary for a number of reasons.
quote:
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human disembowlment?
Yes; when done as a medical procedure, this is sometimes the best deterent to cancer, infected organs, etc.
quote:
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human decapitation?
Yes, if said Christian is pro-capital punishment.
quote:
Is it possible for Christians to be pro live human brain extraction?
Yes; when done as a medical procedure, brain tissue extraction deters a number of ailments and/or dysfunctions.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gentlefriend
Just to put another wrinkle on the conversation. How can the Government say Abortion is legal, but charge a person who killed a pregnant women, such as the Lacy Peterson case, or near my area a drunk driver, with double homicide for the pregnant mother and the unborn child?
Excellent question! Now listen up, everyone:
1. Drunk driving is a crime, and makes said driver all the more culpable for ensuing calamity due to the drunk driver's condition
2. Premeditation with malice makes the Lacey Peterson case murder; premeditation with malice are two huge components of what defines murder
3. There was no consent on the part of either mother
4. Given that there was no consent, we may assume that the pregnant women did not want them nor their unborn babies harmed, therefore they were victimized
5. The babies were not "evacuated" due to any sort of legal clinical procedure
6. The mothers' lives were lost as well as their unborn babies, thus compounding the differences between these incidents and abortion
7. These were neither medical procedures nor accidents
8. One could charge that the drunk driver acted with premeditated malice by deliberately driving drunk
9. The Lacy Peterson case involved first degree premeditation.
Conclusion: "Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice, and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law."
There are probably other differences, but these are off the top of my head, and good enough to answer the question . . .
< Message edited by big-bri -- 12/28/2006 10:06:57 AM >
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 10:15:48 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 530
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gentlefriend
Just to put another wrinkle on the conversation. How can the Government say Abortion is legal, but charge a person who killed a pregnant women, such as the Lacy Peterson case, or near my area a drunk driver, with double homicide for the pregnant mother and the unborn child? If they can do that, then why can they not charge all the mothers who abort with murder of the unborn child?
Just to add my 2 cents worth: The double homicide conviction makes the statement that the fetus was a live, human life. Many in the pro-choice camp have repeatedly made the absurd claim that the fetus is not a live human life until birth.
Peter Singer, medical ethicist at Princeton Medical School, not only has that opinion but puts some pretty outlandish definitions on "person-hood" which allows the post-birth "abortion" of children as old as 5 years of age!
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 10:20:01 AM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Just to add my 2 cents worth: The double homicide conviction makes the statement that the fetus was a live, human life.
Yes, absolutely. Read the "conclusion" in my previous post, #163.
quote:
Many in the pro-choice camp have repeatedly made the absurd claim that the fetus is not a live human life until birth.
This is kind of a distraction, but have you ever wondered why we still don't count someone's life until they are born? Think about it: you count your age from the day you were born, not conceived.
I know one reason, but I won't get into that right now because it's a little complicated.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 10:24:15 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 530
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
I guess if there is one position that I always take, it is always to oppose people (this is not you, Dubya) who use the bible- my bible- as justification for views that I do not agree with, and then tell me that I am not a real Christian if I don't agree with them. Restricting a woman's right to choose birth or abortion is one thing, but restricting my interpretation of my own faith is too close to home for me. Call me selfish, but don't call me a non-Christian.
I share your opposition to anyone who makes such judgments against fellow Christians. Part of the spiritual value of being part of the "body of Christ" should include the ability to discuss and debate these kinds of issues in an intelligent and charitable manner. This does not mean I accept everything every Christian says - but I do not condemn them or deny their poistion in Christ. You read the same Bible as mine and follow the same Christ. We may not interpret every passage the same way but I suspect we are in very close agreement on "the essentials". We can have many disagreements and still be members of the body.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 10:27:56 AM
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big-bri
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Good one, Dub.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 10:34:22 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 530
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
quote:
Many in the pro-choice camp have repeatedly made the absurd claim that the fetus is not a live human life until birth.
This is kind of a distraction, but have you ever wondered why we still don't count someone's life until they are born? Think about it: you count your age from the day you were born, not conceived.
I know one reason, but I won't get into that right now because it's a little complicated.
I understand that but really, a birth date is easily definable and usually a matter of public record including witnesses while the date of conception is a private matter and can usually only be guessed.
One of my major objections on this subject is that as far back as I can recall in my education, one of the "signs of life" are the processes which occur in a cell. For complex life (non-single cell) cell division is a key factor. How can anyone logically claim that an embryo (human or animal) is not alive?
Peter Singer takes these very simple claims that the embryo is not alive and extends them to extremes by re-defining and distinguishing between "alive", "life", and "person-hood". I believe his ethics are based on eugenics and are used to justify euthanasia is some pretty extreme ways. If you want to see the logical conclusion (IMHO) of unrestricted abortion just read a little about Peter Singer.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 10:43:25 AM
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momfree
Posts: 125
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfwink
big bri: I think you are avoiding the issue that is abortion and that it's wrong for a Christian to support abortion rights.
James
James, and that is your opinion and the way you see it and some others see it,> Bigbri and I and many others probably silent and afraid to share their opinions, believe differently.
_____________________________
"Peace is the absence of anger"
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 10:46:40 AM
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momfree
Posts: 125
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: big-bri
I guess if there is one position that I always take, it is always to oppose people (this is not you, Dubya) who use the bible- my bible- as justification for views that I do not agree with, and then tell me that I am not a real Christian if I don't agree with them. Restricting a woman's right to choose birth or abortion is one thing, but restricting my interpretation of my own faith is too close to home for me. Call me selfish, but don't call me a non-Christian.
Big-bri, right on with this statement and I agree wholeheartedly with you. In fact, it's also a violation of TOS of this site.
_____________________________
"Peace is the absence of anger"
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 10:49:44 AM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
Joined: 5/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
I understand that but really, a birth date is easily definable and usually a matter of public record including witnesses while the date of conception is a private matter and can usually only be guessed.
Why not simply count back 40 weeks from the woman's last menstrual cycle, i.e. "Naegele's rule"?
quote:
How can anyone logically claim that an embryo (human or animal) is not alive?
The question goes beyond whether or not life processes are taking place. Particularly as Christians, we are obliged to ask ourselves when the baby becomes a living soul. Many non-Christian cultures also take this issue into account and have their own answers.
Most employ the same standard: when the baby takes their first breath.
This is what we do as well, and this is why we count from birthdays, not conception. Now look at Genesis 2:7 . . .
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Adam was fully formed, yet he did not become a living soul until the breath of life entered him.
quote:
Peter Singer takes these very simple claims that the embryo is not alive and extends them to extremes by re-defining and distinguishing between "alive", "life", and "person-hood".
Not to defend his obviously extreme viewpoints, but he is right to point out that we do distinguish between life and human life. What makes the difference? This is the question.
< Message edited by big-bri -- 12/28/2006 10:56:25 AM >
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 10:52:37 AM
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momfree
Posts: 125
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
I share your opposition to anyone who makes such judgments against fellow Christians. Part of the spiritual value of being part of the "body of Christ" should include the ability to discuss and debate these kinds of issues in an intelligent and charitable manner. This does not mean I accept everything every Christian says - but I do not condemn them or deny their poistion in Christ. You read the same Bible as mine and follow the same Christ. We may not interpret every passage the same way but I suspect we are in very close agreement on "the essentials". We can have many disagreements and still be members of the body.
Dubya...I just wanted to say that even though I disagree with some of your positions and thoughts, I also respect the fact that you have been mostly the only person so far that has used tactful, intelligent and approachable debate. This is what has been lacking from both sides, mainly from one ;) in order for us to at least be civil and discuss in a manner that presents both sides w/out resorting to name calling, irrational accusations, and idiotic rhetoric. I applaud you for that.
_____________________________
"Peace is the absence of anger"
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 10:53:22 AM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
Joined: 5/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: momfree
Big-bri, right on with this statement and I agree wholeheartedly with you. In fact, it's also a violation of TOS of this site.
Well, no one has questioned my Christianity specifically, but it becomes implied in how people answer the OP's question.
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 10:56:03 AM
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momfree
Posts: 125
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Yes, true but the implications are all over by some and hoping that little nudge stops them from going all out and just saying it ;)
_____________________________
"Peace is the absence of anger"
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RE: is it possible for Christians to be pro-abortion? - 12/28/2006 10:59:56 AM
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big-bri
Posts: 579
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. . . which brings us back to the "no true Scotsman" fallacy . . .
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