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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 3:38:43 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
Your ad hom attacks on him are based on your own 'seeing into his heart'.
Wrong. I don't need to see into his heart. I have his words.
quote:
I didn't come to get amens. I didn't come here to get applauded.
Well, Brother Washer, maybe they aren't applauding you. Maybe they aren't saying "amen" to you. Maybe they are applauding being more like Christ.
Yet Washer chides them for applauding him, as if he cannot imagine they would be applauding for any other reason.
quote:
And yes I was right on about your post that I called carnal reasonings. These later posts prove it.
Again, which is easier? To assert? Or to demonstrate?
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 3:50:53 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
Eric: you are being compared to Paul because your bashing Paul. What have you got to show?
What has he got to show? In what regard? Please help define for me what the standard of evaluation is here. Is it how many people we've preached to that you want us to show? How many followers we have? How many people sit in our pews on a weekly basis? These things will prove the truth of what we are saying? Maybe you could help clear this up by answering the question you avoided earlier.
In what way has God vouchsafed for Paul Washer that He hasn't for Joel Olsteen?
I'll be honest with you. I don't put much stock in authority derived from numbers. This is basically just an appeal to consensus in another guise. It turns truth into a popularity contenst. If we used that metric, we'd probably all need to pay a lot more attention to whatever Oprah is espousing this week.
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 5:27:58 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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Dear Mary, my sister in Christ,
quote:
I am thru trying to reason with fools.
You claimed I said things which I did not, and when I patiently pointed out your error, you ignored it. You didn't retract it, nor did you apologize. Yet I still call you a sister in Christ.
You questioned my motivations instead of addressing my concerns, claiming that I just don't like Washer's delivery or his personality with no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. Yet I still call you a sister in Christ.
You've implied that I am either a troll or a misguided believer, but I still address you as my sister in Christ.
You have now called me a fool, yet I still call you a sister in Christ.
quote:
Romans 8:33: "Who shall lay anything to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth"
All who are in Christ are God's elect. You are God's elect, and if I am your brother in Christ, then I am God's elect as well. You've laid quite a few charges against me, including your statment, "may God have mercy on YOUR SOUL." And I continue to say that you are my sister in Christ.
quote:
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
You quote scriptures talking about hate, but I ask you: Who is demonstrating hate between you and me?
Please prayerfully consider Matt 5:22 before answering this.
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 6:45:21 PM
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Sonrise
Posts: 109
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Dear saints in Christ -
I am thru trying to reason with fools. But I will say these Scriptures -
John 7: 7 "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. "
Romans 8:33: "Who shall lay anything to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth"
John 15: 18-21: If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. "
Matt 5:12 :Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."
Matt 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Be of good cheer, Jesus has overcome the world.
Dear saints of God, our brother Paul Washer is doing the will of His Father which is in heaven. He will give account one day to the Father of his obedience to God. Anyone who speaks a word against him will not make or break him on that great day. So do not fret, do not be distressed, the devil hates those that are preaching the Word of God. The devil hates the Word of God and the ones who bring the Word of God.
Remember this - Isaiah 52:7 How Beautiful are the Feet of those who bring good news, proclaim peace, bring glad tidings of good things, proclaim salvation, and proclaim to Zion"
Thanks Be to God. Peace unto those who are truly saved.
How disrespectful to talk to your fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord like that. Not only is it unbecoming and offensive it's more then likely against the TOS, I won't report you though. No one has called PW a fool or anything close to that yet you've resorted to calling us that name since we won't blindly follow a human. Mary, you have not addressed one concern that we've raised except to go on the defensive and attack those that have some issues with PW. What does that mean, "those who are truly saved"? Again, right out of the WOF playbook, attack those who dare to question your hero. Mary, God should be your only hero. It is identical to how the WOFers react when their idol is questioned. Please don't follow man, he will only let you down. No one, I repeat, no one is above reproach. You are way to emotional regarding this topic. Please ask yourself why.
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 9:19:41 PM
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Eric B
Posts: 61
Joined: 11/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Eric: you are being compared to Paul because your bashing Paul. What have you got to show?
When youre put on the same scale as youve put Paul you want to jump off.
Your denunciations and complaints have no merit.
I'm not bashing Paul, and you're not comparing me to him on the same "scale". That's precisely the problem. I'm talking about his doctrine. You then begin talking about achievements. In that case, we can compare Washer to Olsteen, then. Who has lured more people into the Church? Oh, but then church growth does not equate true conversion, and Olsteen is falsely leading people, because of his doctrine. Right? I can certainly go along with that, but then that means comparing achievements or credentials means nothing, and Washer has to be judged on the same merit as Olsteen.
But this is what we see with you, IMA and the others: constant fundamental attribution errors. You attribute Washer's criticism to truth, but our criticism to "slander", oppositon to him is attributed to all those scriptures on "men shall hate the true prophets", yet the same 'men' also hate the JW's and Mormons (and many do not even recognize any real difference between the groups), yet you would not say that that makes those the true groups, and our anger is kicking against the goads, yet yours (which is much greater and more kneejerk than ours) is justified.
And now, more namecalling, and sly innuendoes about "The world vs God's elect", and who's "truly in Christ". "mocker and scorner of Paul Washer"? Perhaps the Bible should say "Believe on Paul Washer and you shall be saved".
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 9:21:26 PM
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Sonrise
Posts: 109
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Dear saints in Christ -
I am thru trying to reason with fools. But I will say these Scriptures -
John 7: 7 "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. "
Romans 8:33: "Who shall lay anything to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth"
John 15: 18-21: If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. "
Matt 5:12 :Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."
Matt 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Be of good cheer, Jesus has overcome the world.
Dear saints of God, our brother Paul Washer is doing the will of His Father which is in heaven. He will give account one day to the Father of his obedience to God. Anyone who speaks a word against him will not make or break him on that great day. So do not fret, do not be distressed, the devil hates those that are preaching the Word of God. The devil hates the Word of God and the ones who bring the Word of God.
Remember this - Isaiah 52:7 How Beautiful are the Feet of those who bring good news, proclaim peace, bring glad tidings of good things, proclaim salvation, and proclaim to Zion"
Thanks Be to God. Peace unto those who are truly saved.
How disrespectful to talk to your fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord like that. Not only is it unbecoming and offensive it's more then likely against the TOS, I won't report you though. No one has called PW a fool or anything close to that yet you've resorted to calling us that name since we won't blindly follow a human. Mary, you have not addressed one concern that we've raised except to go on the defensive and attack those that have some issues with PW. What does that mean, "those who are truly saved"? Again, right out of the WOF playbook, attack those who dare to question your hero. Mary, God should be your only hero. It is identical to how the WOFers react when their idol is questioned. Please don't follow man, he will only let you down. No one, I repeat, no one is above reproach. You are way to emotional regarding this topic. Please ask yourself why.
Sonrise - "if the shoe fits, wear it" I mentioned no names, so to whom what i said describes, that is who my words are for. The verses I gave were Scritpural.
You may not have noticed, but there were some posts DELETED. This is why people may claim they did not say anything" but since I know they were there, and they now deny it, they have forced me to believe that they are a liar, and you know if a person is a liar, well, we know what Jesus said about their father.
We are not to bless those that are not saved, we are not to wish them godspeed because then we would be partakers of their deeds.. (thats also in the bible). I wish peace on the ones who are born again Christian. As does God. Sinners will never have peace until they repent, so again I am Scriptural.
You ask why I am so emotional? I have said that I am very angry that people would slander a man of God. there are people who come here who enjoy slandering true Christians. I am just as angry as any of the other people in the Bible who "be angry but sin not, dont let the sun go down on your wrath" There is a place for anger, Jesus had anger when he saw His Father's house be turned into a den of thieves, Apostle Paul when he talked to the Galatians and called them bewitched.
I am not a WOF, neither do i proscribe to WOF ministers, and yes I am offended when someone tries to tear down someone who is doing God's work. Of course, Christ's church cannot nor will not be torn down since no one can, it will always stand.
I do keep my eyes on Jesus, and I also have respect and love for the ministers God sends in our path providentially,, same as the various people had lots of love for the Apostle Paul, i.e. when Paul thanks them for thier love (Phillipians for example)... who gave Apostle Paul sacrificially, and other such cases where the churches he set up deeply loved him and would have sacrificed their life for trhem.. I will have to do a study on that... but in any case, remmeber the Apostle John "whom Jesus loved" who rested his head on Jesus' chest at the last supper? so in the New Tetament we see many places where the men of God were so loved and so dear to the churches they set up for example.
I believe I am within scriptural guidelines as I have spoken, judge me by my fruits, in the meanwhile judge other people if they have fruit of the Spirit. We are not required to be sweet and syrupy nicey all the time, but to sometimes take a stand for the true Word of God.
I could make a whole another essay on how God hates the wicked and how they are in slippery places.. (its in one of the Psalms if you need me to look it up).
Again, peace and joy to all those who are truly in Christ Jesus.
From dictionary.com:
slan·der Audio Help /ˈslændər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[slan-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.
3. Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.
–verb (used with object)
4. to utter slander against; defame.
–verb (used without object)
5. to utter or circulate slander.
Using the actual definition can you please show me one post where one person has done this? You're calling out people saying that they might not be Christians simply because they/we raised some concerns about PW? Mary, you are, whether you realize it or not elevating PW into a deity. He is not above reproach and correction in light of scripture, would you agree with that? Anyway, it's not my intent to cause you distress and this thread seems to be doing just that. It was my intent and others here as well to simply shed some light on some issues that we have and discuss them civily with brothers and sisters in the Lord(which, by the way, you've shamefully chosen to question). You have shown no evidence whatsoever that you are capable of such dialogue so I will refrain, from henceforth discussing this topic with you. It does sadden me that some choose to question ones Christianity simply because of a disagreement over a human. Mary, have you heard of this phrase, "The Joy of the Lord"? God bless, Sonrise
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 9:34:14 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5302
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
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Sonrise,
Forgive me if my question has been covered in the 11 pages of this thread - but is your issue with Paul Washer about his style and or speaking to a crowd and saying that they are all sinners and should not be applauding?
I guess I am asking if there are serious issues here with Paul Washer in terms of the core essentials of Christianity, as we have with WoF individuals. If so, can you please list them?
Again, if my questions are dumb because they have been already covered please just let me know and I will gladly read every single post of this thread, thank you brother.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 10:06:57 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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My dear sister in Christ,
quote:
You may not have noticed, but there were some posts DELETED. This is why people may claim they did not say anything" but since I know they were there, and they now deny it, they have forced me to believe that they are a liar, and you know if a person is a liar, well, we know what Jesus said about their father.
As far as I know, there has only been one post deleted on this thread, and that is the post made by faithfulservant where he claimed Eric B and I are the same person. The post where I first mentioned Howard Stern is still there for all to see. It is post #210. I already pointed you to this exact post in my post #247.
Now, in addition to calling me a fool (did you read Matt 5:22?), you have called me a liar, and have even implied that my father is the devil. I have not deleted any of my posts. None of my posts have been deleted. The post on which you based your accusation is there for anyone to see who cares to. And I have not lied. Instead, it is you who slander me with no cause whatsoever.
I ask you again, Mary, my sister in Christ, who is the one engaging in hateful speech in our interchanges?
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 10:18:33 PM
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Sonrise
Posts: 109
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Sonrise,
Forgive me if my question has been covered in the 11 pages of this thread - but is your issue with Paul Washer about his style and or speaking to a crowd and saying that they are all sinners and should not be applauding?
I guess I am asking if there are serious issues here with Paul Washer in terms of the core essentials of Christianity, as we have with WoF individuals. If so, can you please list them?
Again, if my questions are dumb because they have been already covered please just let me know and I will gladly read every single post of this thread, thank you brother.
Earthless,
fair questions, as usual. As far as doctrine, it would be wrong of me to speak about that because I'm ill informed on where he stands on many issues. My specific complaints/issues (what have you?) are the fact that PW comes across as very presumptuous, not to mention condescending when he tells the audience that most of them aren't saved (how would he know?) and then chides them for applauding, by saying that he was talking to and about them and he didn't come for applause. Again, did it ever occur to PW that these kids applauded because they too have a heart that aches for their peers that are more concerned with Brittney Spears then Jesus? Also, why the assumption that they were applauding for him? Did it ever occur to PW that they were applauding his message? This came across as very arrogant, smug and extremely self righteous. I do have a problem when anyone claims and/or appears to be the grand arbiter as to who is saved and who isn't. We all have a direct line to God, not just PW. I didn't see the whole video, but someone either EricB or Phineas said that PW says that it's wrong to say that God doesn't hate some people and gave the example that God loves people but he hates abortion. Abortion isn't a person, it's the sin itself. God still does love the abortionist and the woman who had the abortion. Now the Bible does give examples where God turned some people over to Satan because of their wickedness, but that wasn't what PW was talking about here. Correct me if I'm wrong but basic Calvy theology is that all sin must be repented of or the person isn't saved. Well in the opening of the video, PW said that he was up all night worrying. Isn't worrying a sin? Aren't we to cast our cares upon the Lord? Again, I'm being a bit facetious, but not really. Applying his method, where does it end?
Now, granted this video is 6 years old. To paraphrase you Earthless, "Is their video proof of PW repenting and asking for forgiveness of his pride and arrogance?" You have applied this standard numerous times to the WOFers. Now, I realize that it usually has to do with their message but if you deny that almost as many posts are equally critical of their pride and arrogance as their doctrine then I'd say that your disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst. It strikes me funny that all of a sudden when the doctrine hits too close to home people use a different standard in which to measure. Reading some of the responses here, there have been personal attacks and very mean spirited words. Again, right from the WOF playbook. Do you think that it's right for other posters to question our Christianity simply because we questioned a man that they idolize? Integrity is integrity even if it hits too close to home. Sorry for the long winded answer but I ask you to please look at the 1st few minutes of the video and consider my points in regards to it before responding.
PS. I agree with PW that we as a body, need to get really right with God and not so in love with the world. This is in no way the issue. Sonrise
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/5/2008 11:22:15 PM
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_phinehas_
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/30/2008
From: Leander, TX
Status: offline
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Dear sister in Christ,
quote:
God bless those that are truly saved.
Thanks you for your blessing, if not for your apology. God bless you as well.
--Phin
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RE: What do you think of Paul Washer? - 7/26/2008 4:13:34 PM
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hargisP
Posts: 1
Joined: 7/26/2008
Status: offline
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Lynne should go through the Gospels and see how many "if's" Jesus uses in His messages, about entering into Heaven.
Too many people want to just take the salvation by faith and do nothing else.
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