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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2005 11:09:54 PM
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liberalguy
Posts: 56
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jgarden
With all due respect, the "anemic left-wing opposition" is simply exercising its 1st Ammendment Rights. By "gagging" this opposition during the Vietnam War, America may have won the war but lost one its most fundamental rights that separate it from 99% of the world.
The Soviet Union lost a protracted guerrilla war in Afganistan despite being able to gag all the opposition.
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2005 2:00:38 AM
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henny
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From: MN
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I'm not sure opposition to the war is exactly "anemic" anymore. The more extreme, "Bring us home now!" view might not be as common, but according to the most recent polls the majority of Americans don't aprrove of the war (only 39% do) and say that it wasn't worth it (56% to 42%). This poll was done all the way back in June, but given that recent approval ratings for Bush have been low as well, I doubt they have risen much since.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/20/poll/
Since the whole WMD thing fell apart the administration's strategy seems to be: rewrite history to illustrate the primary purpose of the invasion as "spreading democracy," avoid talking about the war at all as much as possible, avoid questions from the media (hence the historic lack of press conferences given by Bush), and when the war is talked about do so in a safe setting where a series of meaningless, trite, platitudes can be repeated ad naseum without chance of questioning.
I know they MUST view it in a more nuanced manner than just, "We will win the war on terror!" "Iraq is the War on Terror!" "Stay the course!" "They hate us for our freedom!", as if the administration actually based their policies around this childish, black and white, form of thinking, I think we would be worse off than we already are. Even Bush and memebers of his administration occassionally slip and show a glint of intelligence by saying things like, "well actually it it's more complicated than that, and there probably always will be terrorism" so I KNOW they aren't that black and white as they have demonstrated for a fact that they aren't.
What I don't understand is why they insist on not talking about the war at all, and when they do, selling it in a way that is so dumbed down, cloying, sentimental, and devoid from any understanding of reality that even a 1950's TV commercial for ice cream would think it's too tacky.
I think his reluctance to talk about the war in non-structured settings and without reading from the script, and the administration's tendency to downplay and/or ignore casualties is finally starting to catch up with them in the way that public opinion is shifting. As much as I thought Cindy Sheenan's message was just as hamfisted and devoid of nuance as the Administration's own rhetoric on the war, and as much as I don't think the president is required to or should meet with her, I think she is a symptom of a growing discontent in this country, if not just with the war, at least with Bush's seeming phobia of talking about it at all.
Bush is already reacting to this by taking an emergency break from his vacation to appear in front of even more of his devote followers to spout even more of his banal platitudes (and to their credit they did acknowledge the dead in the most direct way since the war began -probably in an effort to quell Sheenan and her criticism without having to meet with her), but I am not sure if more of the same-old same-old will be enough this time, as hoping everything will be OK simply by repeating it over and over, and ignoring the bad, isn't all that great of a strategy.
I would respect him so much more if he would just sit down, level with the American people on the bad in Iraq (while emphasizing what he sees as the good as well) and say, "this is what is happening, this is why, and this is how we intend to fix it." Since I haven't seen him do this to any real degree at all (beyond vague references to things being "hard" followed by a bunch of non-specific, contentless, and emotional bravado on how we will overcome themv by "staying the course") my only other option is to think that he doesn't know what's happening, he doesn't know why, and he doesn't know how to fix it, and I suspect the American people share my same confusion given his declinging poll numbers in regard to Iraq. As even his avid supporters must admit that he is PAINFULLY unavailable and unaccountable to the public, more so than any other president. A press conference or an interview in which he doesn't read from a script would be nice once in a while, and go a loooong way for making his case to the public.
< Message edited by henny -- 8/28/2005 2:38:29 AM >
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2005 7:37:38 PM
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Joanne-M
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I am getting sick and tired of people whining and complaining that the President is "on vacation." Anybody with half a brain understands that nobody in a position with that much responsibility is EVER on vacation, no matter where he or she happens to be. He probably puts in almost as long a work day in Crawford as he does in Washington. Of course, the media doesn't care to report that aspect of his so-called "vacation."
How about our illustrious senators and congresspersons? They've been out of session "on vacation" even longer. Here in New York state, where politicians have a strangle hold on those of us who work for a living, our legislators have been on vacation since June. The fun part is they don't go back to Albany until JANUARY. Of course, while they're gone, they can't be voting themselves any more raises, but it's not bad working for 6 months and making $100,000 a year. Nice work if you can get it.
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 12:15:59 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
With all due respect, the "anemic left-wing opposition" is simply exercising its 1st Ammendment Rights. By "gagging" this opposition during the Vietnam War, America may have won the war but lost one its most fundamental rights that separate it from 99% of the world.
Nobody suggested that they be 'gagged', simply that they get a clue.
quote:
In 2004, GWB was re-elected because he received the majority of the votes. Now the majority of Americans polled, as was the case in Vietnam, are opposed to the war. It would appear that Republicans are only interested in the "will" of the people when it suits their purposes and picks "scapegoats" when it doesn't. That may be good politics, but morally repugnant.
Well no, Republicans just know the difference between elections and opinion polls, unlike recent Democratic Presidents who set policy with one finger in the air.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 10:40:33 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Yeah, no one wants to deprive anyone of the freedom of speech, just of the freedom to disagree . . .
I always find it humourous that the left sees criticism of their viewpoints as a limitation on their freedoms.
quote:
Actually, that is W's big move; ever see the video?:
Good try; it still doesn't defend the wet finger wind measurements suggested by jgarden.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 8:11:38 PM
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Genuflect
Posts: 44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I always find it humourous that the left sees criticism of their viewpoints as a limitation on their freedoms.
Suggesting that someone should not disagree is to suggest a limit on their freedom of speech and thought.
quote:
Good try; it still doesn't defend the wet finger wind measurements suggested by jgarden.
Hey, you brought it up. Show me any other politician who can actually be seen giving the finger . . .
_____________________________
Jenny Flecks
"Inter faeces et urinam nascimur":
St. Augustine
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2005 8:54:02 PM
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jgarden
Posts: 62
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U.S. Corporations That Pay No Taxes Still Get Tax Breaks
"Nearly one-third of the nation’s largest and most profitable corporations paid no federal income tax between 2001 and 2003—yet still received billions of dollars in tax rebates, according to a new study.
Corporate Income Taxes in the Bush Years, released Sept. 22 by Citizens for Tax Justice (CTJ) and the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, finds 82 of 275 companies CTJ examined enjoyed at least one year in 2001–2003 in which they paid no federal income taxes yet received billions of dollars in outright tax rebates. In 2003 alone, 46 of the companies paid no federal income taxes and in some cases, received tax rebates.
............. General Electric Co., which lobbies extensively for tax breaks, topped the list of corporate tax-break recipients, receiving nearly $10 billion in tax subsidies over the three-year period, according to the report..........."
___________________________________________________________________
Follow the money trail and you'll see that these companies got what they paid for in campaign contributions. If business gets a free ride, who is paying the shot for Iraq?
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 1:29:26 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Suggesting that someone should not disagree is to suggest a limit on their freedom of speech and thought.
No it isn't; if that were true, every time someone contradicted someone else, it would be an abridgement of their freedom. I am not saying we should line the prtestors up and shoot them for heaven sake.
quote:
Hey, you brought it up. Show me any other politician who can actually be seen giving the finger . . .
And what would we see if a camera had been regularly trained on Bill Clinton?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 5:29:07 PM
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Genuflect
Posts: 44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I am not saying we should line the prtestors up and shoot them for heaven sake.
Then what should we do with them?
quote:
And what would we see if a camera had been regularly trained on Bill Clinton?
Bill Clinton would most likely have not deliberately Lewinskied in front of a camera; Bush apparently does not demonstrate this same level of restraint.
_____________________________
Jenny Flecks
"Inter faeces et urinam nascimur":
St. Augustine
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2005 10:23:38 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Then what should we do with them?
Well for now, continue to point out the fact that they are wrong. After the war, we can laugh at them, sort of like we do Jane Fonda now.
quote:
Bill Clinton would most likely have not deliberately Lewinskied in front of a camera; Bush apparently does not demonstrate this same level of restraint.
Please, don't even compare those actions in terms of restraint.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2005 1:36:11 AM
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JustaChristian
Posts: 42
Joined: 5/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Joanne-M
I am getting sick and tired of people whining and complaining that the President is "on vacation." Anybody with half a brain understands that nobody in a position with that much responsibility is EVER on vacation, no matter where he or she happens to be. He probably puts in almost as long a work day in Crawford as he does in Washington. Of course, the media doesn't care to report that aspect of his so-called "vacation."
How about our illustrious senators and congresspersons? They've been out of session "on vacation" even longer. Here in New York state, where politicians have a strangle hold on those of us who work for a living, our legislators have been on vacation since June. The fun part is they don't go back to Albany until JANUARY. Of course, while they're gone, they can't be voting themselves any more raises, but it's not bad working for 6 months and making $100,000 a year. Nice work if you can get it.
Not to sound like a supporter of those in congress (too much corruption on both sides, need for term limits), but they *have* to have a recess. Their constituents are in their home state. That is actually where they are employed.
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2005 10:01:45 AM
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Genuflect
Posts: 44
Joined: 6/7/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well for now, continue to point out the fact that they are wrong. After the war, we can laugh at them, sort of like we do Jane Fonda now.
Shall we laugh at the dead while we are at it?
quote:
Please, don't even compare those actions in terms of restraint.
I just did.
_____________________________
Jenny Flecks
"Inter faeces et urinam nascimur":
St. Augustine
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2005 10:16:11 AM
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Flojo1
Posts: 64
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Genuflect
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I am not saying we should line the prtestors up and shoot them for heaven sake.
Then what should we do with them?
For starters the media could stop giving them a voice. At least the storm has taken the anti-war, Bush-haters off the front page, I imagine only temporarily.
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2005 10:21:00 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Shall we laugh at the dead while we are at it?
No, that's the work of the left. Mock the dead and wounded.
quote:
I just did.
Really? You think adultery and flipping the bird are morally equivalent? That could make for some difficulty marraiges once the word gets out.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2005 12:59:05 PM
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pthalomarie
Posts: 173
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
No, that's the work of the left. Mock the dead and wounded.
You keep relying on falsehoods to make your case, which makes me wonder how sincere any of your posts here are. There are no cases of protestors mocking the dead or wounded. There are no cases of protestors attacking soldiers in hospitals. There are no cases of protestors swaying administration policy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Flojo1
For starters the media could stop giving them a voice. At least the storm has taken the anti-war, Bush-haters off the front page, I imagine only temporarily.
LOL. I love how conservative solutions always come down to keeping dissenters from having a say. Jhud says that the left should stop protesting, for fear that they may hurt soldiers' feelings or cause the administration to question their approach. You say that their viewpoint shouldn't be published in the first place.
And you wonder why Genuflect concluded that you're against free speech...
_____________________________
Have You shared the Gospel with someone today?
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2005 1:33:28 PM
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musikman
Posts: 68
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
There are no cases of protestors mocking the dead or wounded.
What about the recent "vigil" held outside of Walter Reed where protestors demonstrated against the war and held signs that said "Enlist and die for Halliburton" and other such nonsense. Why do they feel the need to bother injured soldiers and their families? Why not take their "vigil" to some place more appropriate, like say, Camp Crazy down in Crawford, TX?
Or how about the news story that came out yesterday about protestors basically crashing the funeral of a soldier recently killed in Iraq? I'll post the link if I can find it...
quote:
Jhud says that the left should stop protesting, for fear that they may hurt soldiers' feelings or cause the administration to question their approach.
With freedom of speech comes a measure of responsibility. However, a great many of these "peace activists" are in reality th ebest friends the terrorists ever had. It sends them the message that maybe we are not resolved to fight this war after all, and will certainly embolden them in their efforts to attack American interests.
Here's a novel idea: let's get on the same page and defeat our enemies, then we can go back to fighting among ourselves all we want. The divisiveness over this issue can only prolong the conflict and result in that many more casualties....
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2005 5:47:36 PM
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Genuflect
Posts: 44
Joined: 6/7/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
No, that's the work of the left. Mock the dead and wounded.
Can you prove this?
quote:
Really? You think adultery and flipping the bird are morally equivalent?
No, I just think that there is a huge practical difference between doing something in private, and knowingly displaying a gesture to a camera. What Clinton did was wrong, to be sure, but I am also sure that he never intended to get caught- certainly not seen. What Bush did was far more insipid: he adolescently flashed a vulgar gesture in front of a camera, practically insuring that someone would see it.
< Message edited by Genuflect -- 8/31/2005 5:50:05 PM >
_____________________________
Jenny Flecks
"Inter faeces et urinam nascimur":
St. Augustine
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2005 6:03:18 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Can you prove this?
What do you think Code Pink is doing at Walter Reed?
quote:
No, I just think that there is a huge practical difference between doing something in private, and knowingly displaying a gesture to a camera. What Clinton did was wrong, to be sure, but I am also sure that he never intended to get caught- certainly not seen. What Bush did was far more insipid: he adolescently flashed a vulgar gesture in front of a camera, practically insuring that someone would see it.
Oh please, by your criteria killing someone in private would be less henious than cussing on camera. Kerry said the f-word within ear-shot of reporters a number of times; was he culpable in your eyes of the same horrors?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2005 7:08:35 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
You keep relying on falsehoods to make your case, which makes me wonder how sincere any of your posts here are. There are no cases of protestors mocking the dead or wounded. There are no cases of protestors attacking soldiers in hospitals. There are no cases of protestors swaying administration policy.
That is exactly what Code Pink are doing at Walter Reed.
I never said they were ‘attacking’ wounded soldiers, that would be your usual straw man argument.
quote:
There are no cases of protestors swaying administration policy.
Of course not; why would the administration listen to a bunch of left-wing idiots?
quote:
LOL. I love how conservative solutions always come down to keeping dissenters from having a say.
What? They are free to have their say, they just cry every time someone points out they are wrong. They want there say without dissent, which is why left wingers try to shout down opposing voices at universities.
quote:
Jhud says that the left should stop protesting, for fear that they may hurt soldiers' feelings or cause the administration to question their approach. You say that their viewpoint shouldn't be published in the first place.
I never said they shouldn’t be “published in the first place”; again you are making up my words completely. You claim to be a reporter, but you can’t even report something that was was stated, what a few posts back?
Seriously, you only ever are capable of engaging in strawmen of your own creation. Just once, try to actually deal with the argument being made in the forum instead of those from your own imagination.
< Message edited by haldir -- 9/1/2005 10:09:44 AM >
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2005 10:54:46 PM
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Genuflect
Posts: 44
Joined: 6/7/2005
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Thanks for the giggles, Jhud.
'Later . . .
_____________________________
Jenny Flecks
"Inter faeces et urinam nascimur":
St. Augustine
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 9/1/2005 12:16:19 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7383
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Thanks for the giggles, Jhud.
'Later . . .
Some things should perhaps be taken a bit more seriously.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 9/1/2005 1:25:25 AM >
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 9/1/2005 10:13:01 AM
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haldir
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Haldir
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RE: All Bush - The Critque - One Stop Thread - 9/1/2005 11:34:54 AM
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musikman
Posts: 68
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
Thanks for the giggles, Jhud.
'Later . . .
Unfortunately, that is how the left sees things.
We need to remember that George W. Bush is the duly elected President of the United States (and yes, that includes the 2000 election, where every recount showed Bush winning Florida), and as a result he is deserving of our respect, support, and above all, our prayers.
I did not care for Bill Clinton when he was in office, but I always accorded him the respect the office was due. I called him "President Clinton" (as opposed to so many in our media who refer to the President as "Mr. Bush"). And I also prayed for him, as our Scripture tells us to do for those in authority.
I know this is a slight departure from the discussion at hand, I just felt it needed to be said......
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