RE: Godmen (Full Version)

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FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Godmen (3/19/2007 7:08:52 PM)

Rumor has it that GodMen is in the top three Google searches....hmmmm



notmycity -> RE: Godmen (3/20/2007 2:06:55 PM)

Godmen = PDL in a different package.

1 Cor 16:13
13 Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
(NAS)



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Godmen (3/20/2007 11:50:51 PM)

what is PDL?



1mlasp -> RE: Godmen (3/21/2007 12:10:10 AM)

PDL - Praize Da Lawd? I dunno...I'm confused too. [sm=sadquestion.gif]



notmycity -> RE: Godmen (3/21/2007 10:18:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues

what is PDL?


"Purpose Driven Life".

“Godmen” endorses heresy such as the writings of John Eldredge, and other such experiential teachings. It appears to be just another form of repackaged revisionism under the guise of truth.

If you want to know what it means to be a real man, start with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles in the Bible and then read the accounts of godly men in the OT.

Ps 119:9
9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to thy word.



zamdad -> RE: Godmen (3/21/2007 4:33:27 PM)

quote:

“Godmen” endorses heresy such as the writings of John Eldredge, and other such experiential teachings. It appears to be just another form of repackaged revisionism under the guise of truth.

If you want to know what it means to be a real man, start with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles in the Bible and then read the accounts of godly men in the OT.


While I agree with you that the beginning of a search for what it means to be real man should focus on Christ, look at how the culture over time has redefined Christ, Paul, the apostles and many other biblical characters into people we can wrap our minds around. We ask, what would Jesus do? Yet, where does our perception of Christ come from? Yes, we can read the scripture and see what the words on the page say, but then all the "experts" chime in and twist our perception to fit some socially acceptable mold.

While I truly believe that Christ had a very gentle spirit, I don't believe that he shied away from the difficulties of struggling with others sin. In my profession, I get paid to engage people and change behavior. I believe that the church is the original department of corrections and we have handed the responsibility for rehabilitation (transformation) over to the government and the courts of that same goverenment tell us that the church has no role in governmental affairs. To change behavior we have to change thinking. To change thinking we have to change attitudes, beliefs and values. Christ uses the Holy Spirit through each and every one of us to have influence over others to change values, attitudes and beliefs which changes thinking and, ultimately, changes behavior.

What I see in our church culture today are men who are afraid to be men. They know that they have masculine tendencies living within them, but they have been discouraged from living like men by the females in their lives and by the lack of Christian masculine example by other men. I see men whose worldview is shaped by the culture they live in rather than the word of God. We, as men of Christ, need to be influencing our culture for Him rather than the other way around.

Okay, now, who can knock me off my soapbox?



notmycity -> RE: Godmen (3/21/2007 6:38:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

quote:

“Godmen” endorses heresy such as the writings of John Eldredge, and other such experiential teachings. It appears to be just another form of repackaged revisionism under the guise of truth.

If you want to know what it means to be a real man, start with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles in the Bible and then read the accounts of godly men in the OT.


While I agree with you that the beginning of a search for what it means to be real man should focus on Christ, look at how the culture over time has redefined Christ, Paul, the apostles and many other biblical characters into people we can wrap our minds around. We ask, what would Jesus do? Yet, where does our perception of Christ come from? Yes, we can read the scripture and see what the words on the page say, but then all the "experts" chime in and twist our perception to fit some socially acceptable mold.

While I truly believe that Christ had a very gentle spirit, I don't believe that he shied away from the difficulties of struggling with others sin. In my profession, I get paid to engage people and change behavior. I believe that the church is the original department of corrections and we have handed the responsibility for rehabilitation (transformation) over to the government and the courts of that same goverenment tell us that the church has no role in governmental affairs. To change behavior we have to change thinking. To change thinking we have to change attitudes, beliefs and values. Christ uses the Holy Spirit through each and every one of us to have influence over others to change values, attitudes and beliefs which changes thinking and, ultimately, changes behavior.

What I see in our church culture today are men who are afraid to be men. They know that they have masculine tendencies living within them, but they have been discouraged from living like men by the females in their lives and by the lack of Christian masculine example by other men. I see men whose worldview is shaped by the culture they live in rather than the word of God. We, as men of Christ, need to be influencing our culture for Him rather than the other way around.

Okay, now, who can knock me off my soapbox?


You can stay on the soapbox if you wish. :o)

I fully when you said, “What I see in our church culture today are men who are afraid to be men.”

Consider this seeming conundrum:
Jesus said, “ I am meek and lowly in heart..” (Matt 11:29) Compare to:

John 2:13-17
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

Here was a time to take action. Meek and lowly Jesus flipping tables and cracking a whip. He was meek and lowly. He said so. Apparently today’s definition of meek is vastly different than what is communicated in God’s Word.

Again, look at what Jesus and His apostles did. Everything we need to know about being men can be found there. Add to this OT examples of godly men and you have every teaching you need.



zamdad -> RE: Godmen (3/21/2007 11:26:43 PM)

quote:

Apparently today’s definition of meek is vastly different than what is communicated in God’s Word.


I think this is where the problem lies. We see "meekness" through the eyes of today's culture. We have let the culture shape our definition and our view of the world instead of allowing God to be the lens through which we view the world. It seems that here in the U.S. in particular, we have a difficult time understanding anything outside the confines of our own life experience.



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Godmen (3/30/2007 12:53:54 PM)

I attended the Godmen event in Franklin.
Some of you seem to imagine it as a "beating ourselves on the chest screaming 'We are men!' " kind of thing. It wasn't that at all. There were "testicular" aspects to it, but I think part of that was a "parody" of itself. We laughed because in stead of ferns being a decoration, there were metal frames and trellises. There were large screen media screens with sports bloopers running on them. There were things there that appeal to a man's sense of humor and interest.
The ultimate focus was the spiritual aspect. After all that's what Godmen is about. Encouraging men to focus on their spiritual life and relationship with Jesus. It was a spiritual event, but it wasn't a "religious" event. Some of you may not understand that, but that's exactly what it was. The message of Jesus is not religious. The event was not focused on our religious comfort, meaning the way we expect church to look, progress or be programmed. We didn't sing three him and then pray. There wasn't an "altar call" where people were asked to pray the sinners prayer and rededicate their lives (invitation hymn). There was a bold invitation to make a commitment to act on our faith.
That is what made it different. (some of you will argue that this happens at your church all the time). For those of you that don't get it and want to argue it, I really suggest that you do some reading of actual material that has been published by the organizers. Their theology may differ in some ways from my own. We weren't there to argue those issues. We were there to be united in our liberties as brothers.



kljohnson77 -> RE: Godmen (3/31/2007 12:54:54 AM)

C. S. Lewis has a take on the problem in "The Abolition of Man." http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/lewis/abolition1.htm



TheCleric -> RE: Godmen (3/31/2007 7:39:58 AM)

I've checked out several of the men's ministry sites on the web. For the most part, they go off the deep end.

Part of our responsibility as men is to provide for and protect (lead) our wives and families. That will mean, in part, setting aside some of what we prefer in order to best lead them in a way that makes sense to them. I find this generalized reaction to the women's movement in a men's only movement destructive at its core.

I am not looking to put aside my family... I simply demand to be masculine. Emasculization of the American male, a REAL problem in today's US culture. I have no problem with the women's movement, however your reaction to a man's movement being "destructive" illustrates one of the points of the current masculine movement in religion. Its OK for women to get together to experience their emotions and spirituality in their own way, but not for men to experience brotherhood in a masculine forum.

To better exemplify what I'm talking about, I'll involk God. God displays all the manly characteristics. He is a leader, He is strong (almighty!), He is judge, He is mighty warrior, He is logical, etc., etc., etc. But, He also demonstrates all the qualities of a woman as well! He is tender-hearted, He is merciful, He is the ultimate care-taker, He is the mother hen that wraps His wings around His chicks, He is the lover of our souls, etc., etc., etc.

God is the creator and Lord, of course he shows aspects of male and female. But he also created both male and female, two DIFFERENT beings. He did not create Adam and Doug...it was Adam and Eve, different aspects. Its healthy to try to understand your partner and helpmate, but not to BECOME them...balance is key. Is our purpose here to BE GOD (which is impossible) or to be the best men and women (different but equal) that we can be?

It takes nothing at all away from our manhood to also begin to accumulate some of the gifts typically seen as those of a woman -- Jesus Christ certainly portrayed for us this possibility. No one in his right mind would question the ultimate manhood of Christ, yet in Him we see acts of mercy, and a love that transcends all other.

Not what GODMEN are saying...you seem not to be listening. Jesus Chist was devine made flesh. Men, real men, are capable of mercy and love...look to the old code of chivalry, that is a paradigm we should seek. By the way, I am not just being argumentative, but I refuse to sit quietly by while being a true man in today's society is not "politically correct" or palatable to some. PERIOD.

Being "meek" seems to best describe what I am talking about... And "meek" isn't a term we use much these days -- and less so, understand. It actually means, "great strength under control" which should be the goal of each of us.

Don't even get me started on meek...an EXTREMELY poor choice of words (I know...BLASPHEMY). I guess I just need to do some research into the ancient Greek (the original language of the bible) and try to understand the true meaning of that passage which was inspired by the divine but written by man. Humility yes, meek...not by today's definition. Thanks but no.

As I've learned to "love" I've also learned just how much strength it takes to do so. AS I've leraned to care, I've learned that caring takes skill, time, thought, and energy. I've lost nothing, I'm still all man, but I'm more complete, and beter able to serve others as Christ did. Going off into the woods to HOO-RAH, beat my chest, and be a MAN gains me nothing much except a gratification of my male ego, so by choice, I moderate myself to be better conformed to the image of Christ.

Which image of Christ...ohhhh the one of him popularized by the contemporary church, surrounded by children and lambs smiling gently, not the Christ in Matt 21:12-17 (for one example). Again, a current church trend let's ignore challenging passages in the bible, let's not make this religion thing to hard.

Oh, and I find it totally masculine to take my wife shopping for new clothes. To do the grocery shopping and a lot of the cooking, etc. This ends up freeing my wife for some of the pursuits I prefer, after the lights get turned off at night... I've discovered that the better she feels loved, the better I feel like a "real man."

Again...not listening, hey just shut us off because we seem threatening, no no that's just what Jesus would do. Got it thanks, what I would call a typical pasturized "Christian" response. In a word, predictable.

_____________________________

Aka - "The Pastornator"

Visit UCORA.ORG -- the United Christian Off-Road Alliance -- a place where Christians that love their trucks, bikes, and atv's hang out.

I have cut and pasted the majority of this from my recent thread, moved here, titled GODMEN, and invite more discussion. Thank you for your time.

TheCleric



notmycity -> RE: Godmen (4/3/2007 1:40:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
......For those of you that don't get it and want to argue it, I really suggest that you do some reading of actual material that has been published by the organizers....


“Been there; done that..”

I’ve read up and found their ideas and affiliations to be apostate, mixing with the psycho-heresy that is now so common-place and predominant within modern Christendom.



zamdad -> RE: Godmen (4/3/2007 2:06:23 PM)

quote:

I’ve read up and found their ideas and affiliations to be apostate, mixing with the psycho-heresy that is now so common-place and predominant within modern Christendom.


For instance?



notmycity -> RE: Godmen (4/3/2007 2:54:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

quote:

I’ve read up and found their ideas and affiliations to be apostate, mixing with the psycho-heresy that is now so common-place and predominant within modern Christendom.


For instance?


For starters:

Here’s an article on Wild at Heart, by John Eldredge
http://www.ccwonline.org/wild.html

Godmen sells this heretical book.



zamdad -> RE: Godmen (4/3/2007 3:39:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

quote:

I’ve read up and found their ideas and affiliations to be apostate, mixing with the psycho-heresy that is now so common-place and predominant within modern Christendom.


For instance?


For starters:

Here’s an article on Wild at Heart, by John Eldredge
http://www.ccwonline.org/wild.html

Godmen sells this heretical book.


What else you got? I want to know what you think. I read Wild At Heart. I did not see it as a heretical book. If you think it is, explain how you come to the conclusion. If you want to cite material from others, by all means do so. I read the review you linked. I don't know him from John Eldridge.



northdoc -> RE: Godmen (4/3/2007 10:44:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PTC

Timothpalla, I wrote a book to men knowing it wasn't for everyone. I wrote so in the book. And we know at GodMen that it's not for every guy as well. But we also know it's for a lot of guys who struggle with living out their faith.

I'm glad it's not for every guy; this way people like you are free to make the sandwiches :)



"But we also know it's for a lot of guys who struggle living out their faith." What about a close relationship with Jesus? He has the answers. He said so. Read the word and get to know HIM better. Looking for fleshly answers is not the solution. "Seek ye first the son of God and all these other things will be added." KJV



TheCleric -> RE: Godmen (4/4/2007 7:03:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
......For those of you that don't get it and want to argue it, I really suggest that you do some reading of actual material that has been published by the organizers....


“Been there; done that..”

I’ve read up and found their ideas and affiliations to be apostate, mixing with the psycho-heresy that is now so common-place and predominant within modern Christendom.

quote:

apostate


Notmycity,

1. apostate - One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause. (I looked it just to be sure what you were implying).

How are their ideas apostate? If you levy such a judgement on them some evidence would be nice. Or, as I suspect, it merely threatens the emasculate posture of the typical Christian church.

2. psycho-heresy - Psychoheresy is the integration of secular psychological counseling theories and therapies with the Bible. (did a little research on this one as I had never heard of it before your post)

PsychoHeresy Awareness Ministries, an organization founded to coutnter the amalgamation of psychotherapy and the Christian religions, states in their beliefs : WE BELIEVE that the 66 books that comprise the Bible are the plenary, verbally inspired Word of God, inerrant and infallible in the original manuscripts, and the guide and final authority in matters of faith and day to day life, interpreted by the Holy Spirit to each individual believer. Let me focus on the last part of that statement, "interpreted by the Holy Spirit to each individual believer".

So the Holy Spirit intreprets the Bible to each individulal believer, which means that GODMEN, Paul Coughlin and the like are experiencing the Bible THROUGH the Holy Spirit.

Whew! and here for a minute I thought we were all just going to hell, go straight to hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Listen, I may just be a psycho-heretical man practicing apostasy (had to look up how to properly use it in a sentence too), but you'll have to do better than just branding me wrong and being dismissive.

To quote the Casting Crowns, "So maybe this time I'll speak the words of life With Your fire in my eyes" (exerpted from the song Here I Go Again). Convince me (or do you feel that you don't have to as I am a purported unbeliever?), use your interpretation of the Bible (via the Holy Spirit) to speak the words of life and uncover my eyes. Then again, lets not make this religion thing too hard.

De profundis clamo ad te domine.

TheCleric

P.S. I do hope I am not making any Christians that have payed into the current Christian church uncomfortable by not offering hugs, the love of little children, lambs, and doves to all who need it. I am sure that the early Christians were equally comfortable right before they were fed to the lions.



TheCleric -> RE: Godmen (4/4/2007 7:19:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: northdoc

quote:

ORIGINAL: PTC

Timothpalla, I wrote a book to men knowing it wasn't for everyone. I wrote so in the book. And we know at GodMen that it's not for every guy as well. But we also know it's for a lot of guys who struggle with living out their faith.

I'm glad it's not for every guy; this way people like you are free to make the sandwiches :)



"But we also know it's for a lot of guys who struggle living out their faith." What about a close relationship with Jesus? He has the answers. He said so. Read the word and get to know HIM better. Looking for fleshly answers is not the solution. "Seek ye first the son of God and all these other things will be added." KJV


NorthDoc,

So you do not support Christian women's groups? Or organizations like Promise Keepers?

I will not let my brother to my left or right in the battle against The Enemy fall as I stand by with my head buried in the Bible. I read the bible daily, but the good book is a tool, not a ticket.

By the way, what book and verse are you quoting? I personally read only KJV and cannot seem to find it.

Thank you.

De profundis clamo ad te domine.

TheCleric



TheCleric -> RE: Godmen (4/4/2007 7:45:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

quote:

I’ve read up and found their ideas and affiliations to be apostate, mixing with the psycho-heresy that is now so common-place and predominant within modern Christendom.


For instance?


For starters:

Here’s an article on Wild at Heart, by John Eldredge
http://www.ccwonline.org/wild.html

Godmen sells this heretical book.


NotMyCity,

Like zamdad I have also read Wild at Heart (and your linked article, BEFORE i read the book). I also disagree with parts of the book, but being a reasonably educated Christian man, and discussing it at length with my padre, I can read the good stuff, and see through the chaff.

But hey, what was I thinking, let's just dismiss it outright. I wonder what the Jews thought of the New Testament when they read it? Heresy? Or do they agree with parts and messages while disagreeing with the divinity of Jesus?

Hmmm......

De profundis clamo ad te domine.

TheCleric



draexo -> RE: Godmen (4/4/2007 8:53:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues

I have recently found out about a movement called "Godmen" that is really addressing the needs and issues that Christian men are facing.
They have a pretty interesting approach to all of it and it encourages honesty.
Some of you may be interested in it too.
They have an event coming up in Nashville TN.
Check out their website Godmen and let's talk about it.
I was skeptical of the first event they had back in November, but have grown extremely interested since that time.


Checked out their website. The sad thing is that if the local churches were doing their 'thing' then these national organizations would not be needed. Men need the company of other men. Having attended an all-male high school years ago, I can testify that it is much different there than at a mixed-sex high school.
Godmen seems to run the along the lines of Promise Keepers. Big events, big conferences. But what happens afterward? I attended a PK event 3 years ago. It was great. During the event they very briefly mentioned 'PK Marathon'. PK Marathon was a series of DVD's for men to get together and watch. I believe their ad was 'After the conference high keep running the race'. The idea was to get men meating and discussing man stuff. No one at my church was interested. Conferences are great, but you need to follow through afterwards. THAT is where the rubber meets the road.



notmycity -> RE: Godmen (4/4/2007 11:53:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCleric


NotMyCity,

But hey, what was I thinking, let's just dismiss it outright. I wonder what the Jews thought of the New Testament when they read it? Heresy? Or do they agree with parts and messages while disagreeing with the divinity of Jesus?



Apples and oranges. The NT is Scripture.

Speaking of Scripture, there was a time when God’s Word alone was the only rule of faith for the believer.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

According to 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Scripture is ALL that is needed.



draexo -> RE: Godmen (4/4/2007 11:56:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues

what is PDL?


"Purpose Driven Life".

“Godmen” endorses heresy such as the writings of John Eldredge, and other such experiential teachings. It appears to be just another form of repackaged revisionism under the guise of truth.

If you want to know what it means to be a real man, start with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles in the Bible and then read the accounts of godly men in the OT.

Ps 119:9
9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to thy word.

John Eldredge is heretical? I must disagree. I am open to your proof.



notmycity -> RE: Godmen (4/4/2007 12:05:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: draexo

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues

what is PDL?


"Purpose Driven Life".

“Godmen” endorses heresy such as the writings of John Eldredge, and other such experiential teachings. It appears to be just another form of repackaged revisionism under the guise of truth.

If you want to know what it means to be a real man, start with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles in the Bible and then read the accounts of godly men in the OT.

Ps 119:9
9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to thy word.

John Eldredge is heretical? I must disagree. I am open to your proof.


Again, this link provides a good synopsis: http://www.ccwonline.org/wild2.html



zamdad -> RE: Godmen (4/4/2007 2:59:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: draexo

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues

what is PDL?


"Purpose Driven Life".

“Godmen” endorses heresy such as the writings of John Eldredge, and other such experiential teachings. It appears to be just another form of repackaged revisionism under the guise of truth.

If you want to know what it means to be a real man, start with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles in the Bible and then read the accounts of godly men in the OT.

Ps 119:9
9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to thy word.

John Eldredge is heretical? I must disagree. I am open to your proof.


Again, this link provides a good synopsis: http://www.ccwonline.org/wild2.html


You seem to claim that all a man needs to follow is God's word and His word alone. I won't dispute that as God's word is the source of all truth. And while you are casting aspersions that John Eldrege, Rick Warren and others are heretical, you keep brining us back to the writings of yet another man. Who do you follow? Christ or Jim Elliff? Or, is it a combination of the two? It seems that oftentimes we become what we say we don't like.



notmycity -> RE: Godmen (4/4/2007 3:15:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad
You seem to claim that all a man needs to follow is God's word and His word alone. I won't dispute that as God's word is the source of all truth. And while you are casting aspersions that John Eldrege, Rick Warren and others are heretical, you keep brining us back to the writings of yet another man......


I just happen to agree with the author’s critique, and I used it for brevity’s sake.



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