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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/2/2007 5:19:28 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5276
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From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The highest authority for Baptists is not the national, state, or local association but the individual, local church.
The highest authority for Reformed Baptists (and Presbyterians too) is the Word of God. The highest court for most Baptists (Reformed or not) is the local congregation.
Though I suspect that is what JF meant, it's good to remember that one of the five Sola's of the Reformation is Sola Scriptura.
How "Sola Scriptura" can coexist with prophecy and/or prophetic tongues is a great topic for another thread, but not one that I have time to get into right now.
-Turretinfan
If we want to be strictly accurate, we should say that the Author of scripture is our highest authority. But what I meant in context (it's always context, Grasshoppa) is that the local Baptist church doesn't take orders from the denomination, association, or any of its officers or committees. All of those are subservient to the local church - they were created for the benefit of the local church, not the other way around.
Dear JF,
Hence my John 1:1 reference and my "though I suspect ... ." Just enjoying a little brotherly chat. Hopefully you recognize that Presbyterians feel much the same way about their presbyteries, synods, and general assemblies, that they aim to assist the churches, not the other way 'round.
-Turretinfan
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/2/2007 5:53:07 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6508
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The highest authority for Baptists is not the national, state, or local association but the individual, local church.
The highest authority for Reformed Baptists (and Presbyterians too) is the Word of God. The highest court for most Baptists (Reformed or not) is the local congregation.
Though I suspect that is what JF meant, it's good to remember that one of the five Sola's of the Reformation is Sola Scriptura.
How "Sola Scriptura" can coexist with prophecy and/or prophetic tongues is a great topic for another thread, but not one that I have time to get into right now.
-Turretinfan
If we want to be strictly accurate, we should say that the Author of scripture is our highest authority. But what I meant in context (it's always context, Grasshoppa) is that the local Baptist church doesn't take orders from the denomination, association, or any of its officers or committees. All of those are subservient to the local church - they were created for the benefit of the local church, not the other way around.
Dear JF,
Hence my John 1:1 reference and my "though I suspect ... ." Just enjoying a little brotherly chat. Hopefully you recognize that Presbyterians feel much the same way about their presbyteries, synods, and general assemblies, that they aim to assist the churches, not the other way 'round.
-Turretinfan
TF, I understand. I wasn't trying to be argumentative, just clarifying. I don't post in here a lot but I do enjoy reading. I think all the regular posters in this thread are what Hawkeye on MASH used to call, "Finestkind."
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/5/2007 3:41:53 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2199
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
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quote:
10 things I wish I had known about Calvinisn before becoming one
I didn't know you could become a Calvinism. Is that like becoming an anachronism?
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/5/2007 7:56:56 PM
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Geocacher301
Posts: 70
Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
Isn't it awesome that God doesn't refer to or even remember our checkered past when it comes to our salvation. (I wonder why we insist on this when the goal to become more Christlike would be be in opposition.) The price was paid once and for all, the past is the past - we grow in Christ, we grow in our relationship with God. We move beyond blame and excuse into a firm relationship with God and learn to walk with others in the same way.
I understand the historical reason for remembering - learn from, grow from, be broken in God's mercy. I just don't get that we don't acknowledge the same grace we have been shown by God in others.
I certainly agree.
It does help to know if one has a "checkered past." Calvin is a good example. His extreme persecution of Christians that wouldn't agree to his reformed doctrine is a good example. If one reads his published "Institutes" or whatever they are called one should realize just how fallable he could be when you look at what some of his actions were.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/5/2007 8:07:37 PM
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Geocacher301
Posts: 70
Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
Geo,
quote:
from what I hear Joshua Harris himself is finding out and admitting some of the problems his book produced.
quote:
And note, this behavior would not be seen if Harris were a "Pope." Popes are infallible (even if only in their own minds), and are very unlikely to revisit their convictions on their own. Even if Harris were prompted by his pastoral team... or perhaps SGM team? or maybe his congregation? or maybe his readers?... to reconsider some things... this is more evidence that he is not treated like a pope. Underlings do not question "popes".... especially not to their face.
... as a matter of fact, this MIGHT (I don't know the history) be evidence that SGM does not "rule" their pastors. Perhaps Mahaney did counsel Harris about some historical pitfalls he experienced, and Harris just went ahead with his ideas. Either way, this seems to speak against "popeness".
TheoJunkie
I am not sure why you are talking about Joshua Harris and pope. My one remark was about your jest about C.J. Mahaney being the pope. I wouldn't even suggest Joshua Harris was the pope or a local one.
A pope might be infallible but I am sure popes have been known to change their mind. Thus I wouldn't use the reasoning that you use to show that he isn't a pope. Again I am not suggesting Joshua Harris is.
One your comment about the historical pitfalls of dating. I would certainly hope that Joshua Harris didn't go ahead and write his book and intentionally leave out the pitfalls as you state could have happened. That would not speak very highly of his character. It would be very disappointing if he intentionally wrote a book that was deceptive or was deceptive by omission.
My guess here is that he may be the first pastor in the Sovereign Grace group(denonomination) to see and acknowledge that the system he promotes isn't perfect and has its own share of problems. It is too bad he is starting to discover this after writing and one revision was done to his book.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/5/2007 9:05:02 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2199
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
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GC,
I said (or tried to)... that perhaps Harris didn't listen to the advice of CJ Mahaney, and published against his council. I did not suggest that he intentionally left out pitfalls he was aware of.
I have no further comments on this.
By the way, Just a question... do you affirm the doctrines of grace and at least "TU_IP"?
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/5/2007 9:47:17 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1588
Joined: 3/11/2007
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TheoJunkie,
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
TF,
It would be clear that prophesy in the context of sola scriptura is NOT:
1) new revelation about the character of God, position of man before God, or the redemption of man by God
2) in conflict with scripture (perhaps this actually an extension of number 1).
3) "back story new information" about any events described in scripture.
given the above, a valid prophesy would be "local application of scripture" or perhaps temporal future prophesy. For example, someone may bring a scripture passage to light that applies to some individual in the gathering.
I would think that some "prophesy of the future" might also occur, providing it did not deal with anything related to what scripture has spoken on (including general themes, or particulars regarding "who is saved" or similar things)... examples might be a prophesy concerning whether or not a building project would be approved by the county... or whatever.
... and as usual, if the prophesy is not true, it is false (.. Yogi Berra agrees, no doubt).
I agree what you posted. Have you read D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones? He was strong in his reformed theology, but not accepted by many reformed pastors because of his teaching on the subsequent to salvation baptism in the Spirit. He didn’t relate to Charismatics because of their emphasis on the subjective experience over the objective word of God.
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/6/2007 10:57:02 AM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5276
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
10 things I wish I had known about Calvinisn before becoming one
I didn't know you could become a Calvinism. Is that like becoming an anachronism?
Grammatically it's like being an immaculate conception (link).
_____________________________
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/6/2007 12:49:13 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2199
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
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SH,
No, I haven't read Lloyd-Jones...
One of the things I appreciate about my church is that they don't let feelings/experience trump scripture/objectivity. Regarding the Spirit, they would affirm that there can (and are) post-regeneration/salvation "fillings" of the Spirit, but this is not in the sense of some non-reformed notions of subsequent "baptism" in the Spirit... my church would affirm that the Spirit is immediately and continuously active in the life of a believer, but there can/are "special moments" of being "in the Spirit"-- sort of "specially charged up" for a task of some sort or another. Sort of like when John says in Revelation, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day." A "more than usual palpable presense". I think the "classically reformed" would affirm these moments of special action by the Spirit, but might use a different term than "filling." At any rate, we (my church) do not suggest that a believer might go along for any stretch without the Spirit in him, because this would be contrary to his regeneration of the believer... neither do they suggest that people have to some how go seek gifting.. but the Spirit gifts as he wills (we just "persue" the gifts He has given, versus try to get Him to give them-- it might not sound different, but it is).
TF,
After reading that ode to Mary and the Ezekiel "metophor", I am (as warned on your blog) disgusted, and will have to recover some before I ponder Mary any more. 
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/6/2007 3:13:48 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 1470
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
10 things I wish I had known about Calvinisn before becoming one
I didn't know you could become a Calvinism. Is that like becoming an anachronism?
Grammatically it's like being an immaculate conception (link).
And, yet, people make fun of Joel Osteen and such... Well, maybe a only few do but that's just because they have an appreciation of Truth.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/7/2007 1:13:38 AM
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Geocacher301
Posts: 70
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
GC,
I said (or tried to)... that perhaps Harris didn't listen to the advice of CJ Mahaney, and published against his council. I did not suggest that he intentionally left out pitfalls he was aware of.
I have no further comments on this.
By the way, Just a question... do you affirm the doctrines of grace and at least "TU_IP"?
I would be surprised if Joshua Harris would disregard and not follow Mahaney's council. But you never know.
Is the "TU_IP" a typo or are you intentionally leaving out the "L?"
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/7/2007 4:30:57 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2196
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
10 things I wish I had known about Calvinisn before becoming one
I didn't know you could become a Calvinism. Is that like becoming an anachronism?
Grammatically it's like being an immaculate conception (link).
And, yet, people make fun of Joel Osteen and such... Well, maybe a only few do but that's just because they have an appreciation of Truth.
Touche.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/7/2007 11:00:03 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2199
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
Status: offline
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quote:
Is the "TU_IP" a typo or are you intentionally leaving out the "L?"
I asked whether you "at least" affirmed TU_IP. That is, are you at least a 4-pointer, if not a 5-pointer.
Please answer.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/8/2007 2:38:08 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4152
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Geocacher301
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
Isn't it awesome that God doesn't refer to or even remember our checkered past when it comes to our salvation. (I wonder why we insist on this when the goal to become more Christlike would be be in opposition.) The price was paid once and for all, the past is the past - we grow in Christ, we grow in our relationship with God. We move beyond blame and excuse into a firm relationship with God and learn to walk with others in the same way.
I understand the historical reason for remembering - learn from, grow from, be broken in God's mercy. I just don't get that we don't acknowledge the same grace we have been shown by God in others.
I certainly agree.
It does help to know if one has a "checkered past." Calvin is a good example. His extreme persecution of Christians that wouldn't agree to his reformed doctrine is a good example. If one reads his published "Institutes" or whatever they are called one should realize just how fallable he could be when you look at what some of his actions were.
Yeah, like most of our church fathers all the way back to Luther. Not bad company to associated with.
I suppose if Calvin saw the way some people today use his name to beat people over the head, he would be appalled.
TJ - I always giggle when I see "4-point Calvinist," since one point builds upon the others - I just don't get it. *ETA* I mean I don't get how one can be anything other than a 5 point Calvinist - it would seem you either are a Calvinist or you're not.
Today I heard a quote that was quite refreshing...
It's not "once saved, always saved" - it's "once saved, never the same." I thought that was awesome and a much better representation of the heart of the reformed faith.
< Message edited by doinkdom -- 10/8/2007 3:43:14 PM >
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/8/2007 3:36:04 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6508
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
Today I heard a quote that was quite refreshing...
It's not "once saved, always saved" - it's "once saved, never the same." I thought that was awesome and a much better representation of the heart of the reformed faith.
Thanks for sharing. The more I think about this the more I like it. I emailed it to my pastor.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/8/2007 4:29:26 PM
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Geocacher301
Posts: 70
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
Is the "TU_IP" a typo or are you intentionally leaving out the "L?"
I asked whether you "at least" affirmed TU_IP. That is, are you at least a 4-pointer, if not a 5-pointer.
Please answer.
You are quite curious TheoJunkie.
I lean toward "affirming" what is described as a "brighter tulip." This belief is outlined in Larry Tomczak's book entitled "What do you believe about how people get saved?"
As I am sure you know, Tomczak was one of the cofounders of People of Destiny (name was later changed to Sovereign Grace). In his book he alludes to why he left People of Destiny.
I hope this helps.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/8/2007 4:48:39 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2199
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
Status: offline
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GC,
No, your answer doesn't help much, but it appears you are uncomfortable discussing it, so never mind.
The TULIP is pretty bright, properly understood. Of course, you can't get much brighter than Grace... not to say everyone sees Grace as a good thing. I have found that people who think it needs to be brighter don't understand some component or another.
Doinkdom,
Yes, I agree.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/8/2007 7:00:12 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5276
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
The TULIP is pretty bright, properly understood.
And shining more and more!
-Turretinfan
_____________________________
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/13/2007 8:41:48 PM
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Doveflight
Posts: 1336
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: middle of nowhere 4 hrs from anywhere
Status: offline
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Hello All,
Been a long time, I know, I'm not here much anymore as life keeps interfering. I am still working on that rather crude model of packing the next thirty years into two or three. Anyway,
First, I am so sorry for your loss, PP. My heart pleads for your comfort in this time of loss and pleasant joy in the approaching future without end to spend with your Dad. Hope all is going well with you.
Nice to see new faces and I most appreciated this discussion. I'm highlighting a great point that struck me. Doink, thanks for sharing.
quote:
Today I heard a quote that was quite refreshing...
It's not "once saved, always saved" - it's "once saved, never the same." I thought that was awesome and a much better representation of the heart of the reformed faith.
As for me, I am back in active treatment. Results are successful for the time being. Counts are down but the never ending prospects are daunting. I have just begun a journal where friends and cohorts can keep posted on my life. Check here if you are interested.Dove's Flight
Love you all and miss you. It is just too much to do everything. Until next time.....
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/14/2007 10:02:09 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2199
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
Status: offline
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It's great what you are doing, Dove. As always, stay strong.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/15/2007 10:30:31 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4152
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
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I've missed seeing your wings dove...
Rest in our prayers for you.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 10/17/2007 9:56:12 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4152
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
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Extra crispy without too much sauce would be great...
and we'll keep the light on
blessings to you and to your family
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