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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 12/18/2007 3:51:18 PM
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besiderself
Posts: 1111
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Christianity is NOT trying to follow a set of rules. It is not a philosophy. It is not just a different means of getting in tune with some mystical "force" or power. It is a personal relationship between yourself and the one true, living God of the universe.
Romans 3:23 states that all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Everyone of us have sinned at one time and because of that sin we cannot enter into the presence of God nor can we hope to go to heaven.
Romans 6:23 states that the payment for sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus.
Romans 5:8 tells us that even while we were still in sin Jesus willingly died for us.
Jesus said in John 14:6 that no man comes to the Father except through Him. There is no way to get to heaven without accepting Jesus as Savior. You cannot live good enough nor work hard enough to earn God's GIFT of eternal life. If you could, then, Jesus would not have had to come to earth and suffer on the cross!
Romans 10: 9 & 10 state that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is your Lord and believe in your heart that He was raised from the dead, you will be saved.
I John 5: 11 & 12 state that God has given us eternal life through Jesus. If you have accepted Jesus as Savior you have eternal life. If you will not have Jesus as your Savior, you do not have eternal life.
God loved you so much that He allowed His only begotten Son to pay the price for your sin debt, that if you believe in, trust in, and commit your life to Him, you shall not perish but have eternal life.
Ulp...well, everything else you put into that was wonderful. But if I believe in election (and I do), then I cannot in all good conscience say the bolded phrase. I can say, instead, "God loved sinners so much"--but I cannot say "God loved YOU so much" because I don't know if He does love that sinner or not. I could also, come to think of it, just leave those first six words off...it would still be the gospel.
Thanks!
besiderself
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 12/18/2007 5:26:11 PM
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JimboFletch
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I'm with Spurgeon on this - I assume that everyone I share the Gospel with is elect. He will sort them out.
And if they are elect, then He indeed loves them.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 12/18/2007 8:38:14 PM
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Aphobos
Posts: 664
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I'm with Spurgeon on this - I assume that everyone I share the Gospel with is elect. He will sort them out.
And if they are elect, then He indeed loves them.
"God has called me to preach his word. If I knew that all the elect had a yellow stripe painted down their backs, then I would give up preaching the gospel and go lift up shirt tails.”
- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 12/19/2007 9:59:26 AM
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Odeliya
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Looks like you 've got some excellent advice from people here, Bes!
Just wanna add- presuming you are not a pastor or public evangelist you deal with people on individual basis- brother-in- law here, co-worker there, it is nice to use personal, ind. approach for all people are different.
Most effective is the evangelisation mesage we present without words. By example of how we handle everyday situations, what advice you give to friends, how you react to gossip,people who are offensive, morning news , etc we proclaim Christ .
That is how I get the question - Why are you like that? that is when I knew the time is right to present the Gospel.
And one more thing- not all elect are going to join reformed crowd.There will be methodists , messianics,all kinds of arminians that will live a godly, sacrificial christian lives and die as such. So some might never accept your RT msg. but no problem, as long as they do get saved 
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 12/19/2007 10:29:25 AM
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TheoJunkie
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From: Death to Life
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Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!
(Just in case I don't get back here till then... visitation has been spotty...)
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-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 12/19/2007 6:33:03 PM
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besiderself
Posts: 1111
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Looks like you 've got some excellent advice from people here, Bes!
Just wanna add- presuming you are not a pastor or public evangelist you deal with people on individual basis- brother-in- law here, co-worker there, it is nice to use personal, ind. approach for all people are different.
Most effective is the evangelisation mesage we present without words. By example of how we handle everyday situations, what advice you give to friends, how you react to gossip,people who are offensive, morning news , etc we proclaim Christ .
That is how I get the question - Why are you like that? that is when I knew the time is right to present the Gospel.
And one more thing- not all elect are going to join reformed crowd.There will be methodists , messianics,all kinds of arminians that will live a godly, sacrificial christian lives and die as such. So some might never accept your RT msg. but no problem, as long as they do get saved
Thanks Odeliya;
I agree with everything you've said...and I certainly try to live my life that way. I'm very cool with God allowing some who are truly Christian to believe a different way.
The reason I posted the question was because it had been debated on another thread.
Some said, just as was suggested here, "No, just give them an Arminian message (God loves everybody, yadda yadda) and get them saved, THEN teach them RT...it's too heavy at first."
I wondered what people on this thread would have to say to that, is all.
besiderself
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/10/2008 4:09:22 PM
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Geocacher301
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quote:
I read a few postings, but I might be one of those who don't "get it" according to the 1/8/08 entry.
Anyway, is sounds like just another unhappy, skeptical or cynical outpouring of "blah, blah, blah" to me that can be found about nearly every church, denomination or corporate gathering of beleivers.
I suppose that's the freedom we have to vent on the Internet.
I would suggest you read a little bit more and go through more of the various posts before you make a final decision and write this blog off so easily. In such a short period of time the site has had a large number of hits and large number of comments. Just those two facts alone tells me that this blog is serving a need and hopefully will serve a larger purpose for God's Kingdom.
Time will tell. I would just suggest you study it more before passing final judgment. Here are two posts that might help you see more about this blog:
http://sguncensored.wordpress.com/2007/11/22/and-heres-our-story/
http://sguncensored.wordpress.com/2007/11/23/why-this-site-is-here/
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/10/2008 5:09:53 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3642
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I think I'd also be interested to hear or see what CJ or Josh or even their local church's leadership had to say about these blogs and their legitimacy beyond complaining.
I suppose pointing out that each SG church is definitely influenced by their own individual leadership and not everything is CJ's "fault" is an obvious fact.
I will look further into it, but for now it doesn't change my opinion of SG at all. I have probably read everything that has come from CJ, Carol and Josh along with their small group stuff and found nothing heretical or hinky about it.
< Message edited by doinkdom -- 1/10/2008 5:28:47 PM >
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/11/2008 9:56:30 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3642
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Well, I read nearly everything I could find.
And...
I appreciate the bloggers disclaimers on SG not being unbiblical or a cult, etc. and his/her attitude of assumed humility. Nearly everything he/she wrote could be said by any one member of every church in the country who doesn't agree or has difficulty with their own church.
It's mostly personal preference, of which he does state. So...find another church for your family that is a better fit. If your purpose is NOT to bash SG, then why blog it?
The idea that "people should know" is seriously skued by the writers personal opinions and family experience. Same as mine would be.
I guess for me, the bottom line is there was nothing stated that would prevent me from worshipping at a SG church. I already know everything he pointed out about home schooling, care groups, etc. and any one of those things will be different based on the passion of the individual pastor of a SG church.
I guess thanks for the info, but I could write similar comments about every church we have attended, but to what purpose?
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/11/2008 12:05:52 PM
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besiderself
Posts: 1111
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doinkdom;
I've been reading these blogs as I am intensely interested in abuses of authoritarianism in churches. After reading your post, I'm wondering just how much of the blog entries you have read...
There is ample evidence of unscriptural authoritarianism here. NOT something that could be said of any church. Maybe you tend to gravitate toward authoritarian churches?
besiderself
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/11/2008 1:04:10 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3642
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I've read them all - start to finish. You wrote, "Maybe you tend to gravitate toward authoritarian churches." To which I would reply...perhaps you are hyper-sensitive to this issue because you have abuse in your past. I do not, therefore I do not see any abuse here.
IMO, we are becoming a culture of "authority paranoia" among other things based on one bad experience and then having that experience compounded by reading someone elses experience and taking that to mean it is a rampant problem, when in fact it is a very small percentage of the whole.
The fact is, we all DO live under some kind of authority - God, government, etc. I understand if someone has had an abuse of that in their past...then they need to move on for sure and find a place that is good for their family. I get that.
What I don't get is the general public allowing someone's personal soapbox to dictate their own judgement on something they have not even checked out for themselves. OR have not bothered to get a balanced view about. I mean...why not contact SG themselves and not just the local leadership, since CJ and/or Josh are the problem, then talk with them.
I love John MacArthur, but I do not agree with his bashing Catholism or the Charasmatics. It's his soapbox. I find nothing redemptive in all that. It's the same overall issue here IMO. Someone disagrees and decides to get loud about it.
SG is not for everyone...so what? Neither are many other denominations or even individual churches. The same attitude the bloggers don't like has actually become their own - an "I'm better than you" for not attending a SG church any longer.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/11/2008 1:32:53 PM
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besiderself
Posts: 1111
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
I've read them all - start to finish. You wrote, "Maybe you tend to gravitate toward authoritarian churches." To which I would reply...perhaps you are hyper-sensitive to this issue because you have abuse in your past. I do not, therefore I do not see any abuse here.
Wow. In that case I can't really say anything. It is clear to me from reading these and the stories and comments of people on them that authoritarian spiritual abuse is being unscripturally perpetrated at least in the upper echelons of this movement. Because I am also studying Reformed theology at the moment and interested, therefore, in the movements that claim to preach it, I have read/listened to some of these "authorities" in regards to it...and now I have information which will make me be sure to "be a Berean" and "prove all things" even more carefully.
quote:
IMO, we are becoming a culture of "authority paranoia" among other things based on one bad experience and then having that experience compounded by reading someone elses experience and taking that to mean it is a rampant problem, when in fact it is a very small percentage of the whole.
Well, I would agree that we should be careful about being afraid to be under authority...but I will also say that having a "bad" experience only proves to me that authority needs to be accountable and Christ teaches grace-ful servant leadership rather than authoritarianism. It may or may not be statistically provable that authoritarian spiritual abuse is a "small percentage of the whole"...but to those victimized by it, saying so is like saying that a surgery is a small procedure...it's only small if you are NOT the person having it done!
quote:
The fact is, we all DO live under some kind of authority - God, government, etc. I understand if someone has had an abuse of that in their past...then they need to move on for sure and find a place that is good for their family. I get that.
What I don't get is the general public allowing someone's personal soapbox to dictate their own judgement on something they have not even checked out for themselves. OR have not bothered to get a balanced view about. I mean...why not contact SG themselves and not just the local leadership, since CJ and/or Josh are the problem, then talk with them.
If you truly read all of the posts, then you know that these issues have been brought to the attention of both CJ and Josh, and they have not responded. You also know that specific dates, phone numbers, emails, yadda are in hand and those in possession of them are willing to provide them. You also, hopefully, have noted that the intent is not to vent, but to bring to light what needs to be addressed. To me, reading this blog is part of "checking it out myself". While I'm certainly responsible to discern, it is a view I would not have access to otherwise.
Whatever. I can be ok with your assessment of the "soapbox".
quote:
I love John MacArthur, but I do not agree with his bashing Catholism or the Charasmatics. It's his soapbox. I find nothing redemptive in all that. It's the same overall issue here IMO. Someone disagrees and decides to get loud about it.
You know what? I'm glad you said this! I have a few friends who like John MacArthur, and don't see that he bashes Charismatics...yet I do. So thanks for validating my concern in that area.
quote:
SG is not for everyone...so what? Neither are many other denominations or even individual churches. The same attitude the bloggers don't like has actually become their own - an "I'm better than you" for not attending a SG church any longer.
Hmmm...I certainly would agree that a person should not have an elitist attitude of "I'm better (or more spiritual)"...I believe that is what got me into an authoritarian abusive church in the first place. But I don't really see that attitude in these blogs. Not saying it's not there...just saying I haven't noticed it. I'll be on the look out for it.
I agree that diversity is more than ok in denominations and even individual churches...I believe it's vital. But once a denomination or group gets outside scripture, then it's important to call them to account, and warn potential victims of the problems. I believe what is being pointed out in these blogs is a departure from true scriptural authority...therefore I am grateful for the information.
besiderself
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/11/2008 1:52:34 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 3642
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I can't really think of anything else to say about the SG issue on the internet.
So, I'm not ignoring anything, I just don't know what else to say.
We still worship the same God.
Theojunkie doesn't post too often on here, but I think he actually attends a SG church, so if he shows up, maybe he can give some first-hand info rather than 2nd or 3rd person.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/12/2008 7:24:48 AM
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besiderself
Posts: 1111
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Hey, Doveflight;
I think that threads like this one ebb and flow, so hang around...it might get more interesting soon. Have you read Debating Calvinism by James White and Dave Hunt? If so, what did you think about it?
besiderself
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/12/2008 9:34:14 AM
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Doveflight
Posts: 1291
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From: middle of nowhere 4 hrs from anywhere
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quote:
ORIGINAL: besiderself
Hey, Doveflight;
I think that threads like this one ebb and flow, so hang around...it might get more interesting soon. Have you read Debating Calvinism by James White and Dave Hunt? If so, what did you think about it?
besiderself
Hello besiderself,
I haven't read the White/Hunt book. I went on a Sproul binge for awhile and have been reading some other books for the time being dealing with adjusting to limited lifetime and preparations to make both legally and emotionally. If anyone knows someone in this position, The Shadow of Death, has been very helpful.
For those who remember the recent chapters of my life story, my counts are down to 3, yippee,
and chemotherapy seems to be progressing well. Miss you guys.
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If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 1/12/2008 11:44:35 AM
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Geocacher301
Posts: 71
Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:
I think that threads like this one ebb and flow, so hang around...it might get more interesting soon. Have you read Debating Calvinism by James White and Dave Hunt? If so, what did you think about it?
besiderself
I know the question wasn't directed at me but I did read it. It was good reading. There certainly are more. If you look on "youtube" Dave Hunt has a series of videos on there where he shares his view on Reformed/Calvinistic theology. I enjoyed watching his videos.
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