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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/11/2008 9:38:49 PM
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Doveflight
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
Anyone know where to DL any good audio debates, specifically grace vs freewill, or eschatology, other than sermon audio?.
Try the White Horse Inn. I have enjoyed their discussions.
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/11/2008 9:58:05 PM
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HisFish
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From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doveflight
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
Anyone know where to DL any good audio debates, specifically grace vs freewill, or eschatology, other than sermon audio?.
Try the White Horse Inn. I have enjoyed their discussions.
Thank you Dove.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/12/2008 1:30:11 PM
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Machaira
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Did you know that 'savlation' awes us, but 'doctrine' confuses us? Hmmm. Check out this 10 minute youtube video on James's White's blog --
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2776
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/12/2008 9:17:48 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 537
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From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Machaira
Did you know that 'savlation' awes us, but 'doctrine' confuses us? Hmmm. Check out this 10 minute you tube video on Jame's White's blog --
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2776
The guy in the video seems to be saying that there is a middle road between Grace and freewill. Im not sure that's possible.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/13/2008 3:36:41 PM
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Machaira
Posts: 174
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
The guy in the video seems to be saying that there is a middle road between Grace and freewill. Im not sure that's possible.
Exactly. His t-shirt example of the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism demonstrate the impossibility of middle ground. The t-shirt said on one side, "This shirt chose me." On the other side, "I chose this shirt." Either God chooses the elect or the elect choose God. There's really no way to ride the fence on this.
_____________________________
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . . Php 1:29
Check out my blog @ www.thomasboston.wordpress.com
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/14/2008 1:42:01 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 786
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His Fish - regarding your finding a church.. the Lord led me to a Reformed Baptist Church here in Chicagoland even though I had gone visiting varous denominations including Calvary Chapel.
I went to some Reformed Churches and some were ok, some of the people looked kinda bored, surprisingly, (reading prayers for example, looking bored singing about the Grace of God,, weird how you can look bored while singing of the grace of God)... but anyway, if you find a chruch of the Reformed Baptist, you might enjoy it. It has the perfect balance of everything. But you have to go where God leads you of course.
by the way, I was hearing R C Sprouls daily 20 minute show and he speaks a bit more casually there, then I downloaded a sermon by him on Sermon Audio and wow what a difference... he speaks with much more power on the Sermon Audio than his rather friendly teacher speaker mode when he does his show. I was floored.
wow also yesterday at church we had a missionary from Brazil, and wow was he a treat. I dont know, but whenenever missionaries preach to our church they have this very powerful sermon they preach, it seems they have a deep deep touch with the Lord, I cant explain it, but i feell it in my spriit (no its not the charasmatic emotional junk).. but its like when you hear them, its like they have been in the presence of the Lord. do anyone know what im talking about? its like they have truly met the Lord jesus, and now i can see why ministers like paul Washer and Sproul and others can talk the way they do,,, they have been in the presence of the Lord and not a cheap religion. they speak very bravely and without apology, and wow it just makes me in awe of our God! even more than before.
_____________________________
I will extol Thee, my God, O King, and I will bless Thy name forever and ever. Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised, and His greatness is unsearchable" (Psalm 145: 1 & 3)
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/14/2008 8:58:35 PM
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HisFish
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From: Rocky mountain way
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Thank you IMA_CHRISTIAN ill keep my eyes open for the reformed baptists. I used to go to an SBC church years ago but unfortunately it wasent much better that this CC.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/16/2008 11:48:46 AM
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bob97
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quote:
Well... the ELECT do in fact choose God. He chooses first (elects the elect)... but then the elect choose him.
I get the point of the complaint and agree... that there is no way that God and man can both be "first chooser". At the same time, I think we (Reformed) oftentimes forget-- or forget to mention in our zeal to emphasize God as prime mover-- that our coming to faith is not entirely passive on our end.
It is not as though we are "dragged kicking and screaming" into salvation. We willingly and gladly go. Yes, God moves first-- chooses first and changes us first-- but we do indeed then choose, albeit secondarily.
Well said Theo...my thought exactly. But when we are chosen it is my belief we stay in this life until we make the commitment. We might not be dragged kicking and screaming but It’s kind of like death…it’s going to happen.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/16/2008 4:27:47 PM
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Doveflight
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
Thank you IMA_CHRISTIAN ill keep my eyes open for the reformed baptists. I used to go to an SBC church years ago but unfortunately it wasent much better that this CC.
In my search for churches I found individual fellowships within denominations to be uniquely suited/unsuited. We attended a PCA, the only one in the area, that I felt comfortable with doctrinely, but not with the fellowship itself. Other than the elder couple who we already knew, it didn't seem very receiving or welcoming.
We attended an OPC for about two years, with fantastic teaching, but not the community through the week that we needed. The more conservative services took some getting used to but I was appreciating them very much by the time we decided to move again.
I'm told there are reformed baptists in the area, but I haven't connected with any of them.
We are now attending a PCUSA church that devoutly practices conservative teaching and stands firmly against the liberal movements, but also anticipates the time of separation and considering other options if/when need be. They support female elders and ordination, and few more leanings that I tend to have misgivings on, but otherwise teaching is great, and the children and I have a fellowship that we are surrounded and supported by throughout the week.
So I'm saying not all CC may be unacceptable, there may a good strong one somewhere in its own nook and likewise every reformed baptist may not meet your needs either. Visit individual churches and taste their teaching and fellowshipping before deciding.
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/16/2008 5:58:36 PM
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DougHorton
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From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
by the way, I was hearing R C Sprouls daily 20 minute show and he speaks a bit more casually there, then I downloaded a sermon by him on Sermon Audio and wow what a difference... he speaks with much more power on the Sermon Audio than his rather friendly teacher speaker mode when he does his show. I was floored.
There are some subjects which RC gets very worked up about, such as holiness of God. In many of his recordings he is more like the seminary professor he was for many years. He was a professor much longer than he was a preacher.
Also, the recordings you hear were made over many decades, so you may hear a lecture from 30 years ago one day, and something from last month's conference the next.
quote:
wow also yesterday at church we had a missionary from Brazil, and wow was he a treat. I don't know, but whenever missionaries preach to our church they have this very powerful sermon they preach, it seems they have a deep deep touch with the Lord, I cant explain it, but i feel it in my spirit (no its not the charismatic emotional junk).. but its like when you hear them, its like they have been in the presence of the Lord. do anyone know what im talking about? its like they have truly met the Lord Jesus, and now i can see why ministers like Paul Washer and Sproul and others can talk the way they do,,, they have been in the presence of the Lord and not a cheap religion. they speak very bravely and without apology, and wow it just makes me in awe of our God! even more than before.
I know what you mean. That's why I love mission conferences!
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/16/2008 8:20:53 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 537
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doveflight
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
Thank you IMA_CHRISTIAN ill keep my eyes open for the reformed baptists. I used to go to an SBC church years ago but unfortunately it wasent much better that this CC.
In my search for churches I found individual fellowships within denominations to be uniquely suited/unsuited. We attended a PCA, the only one in the area, that I felt comfortable with doctrinely, but not with the fellowship itself. Other than the elder couple who we already knew, it didn't seem very receiving or welcoming.
We attended an OPC for about two years, with fantastic teaching, but not the community through the week that we needed. The more conservative services took some getting used to but I was appreciating them very much by the time we decided to move again.
I'm told there are reformed baptists in the area, but I haven't connected with any of them.
We are now attending a PCUSA church that devoutly practices conservative teaching and stands firmly against the liberal movements, but also anticipates the time of separation and considering other options if/when need be. They support female elders and ordination, and few more leanings that I tend to have misgivings on, but otherwise teaching is great, and the children and I have a fellowship that we are surrounded and supported by throughout the week.
So I'm saying not all CC may be unacceptable, there may a good strong one somewhere in its own nook and likewise every reformed baptist may not meet your needs either. Visit individual churches and taste their teaching and fellowshipping before deciding.
Wise counsel, thank you Doveflight.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/18/2008 2:14:14 PM
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TheoJunkie
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I know... These forums are just one step shy of a chat room... still the loudest shouter and fastest typer wins.
I was listening to/catching up on the last umpteen podcasts from White Horse Inn (thanks to the tip on this forum). They have been talking about "American Pelagianism"... It's really pretty shocking. Also interesting was, they were reading from the Canons of Orange (an early RCC response to Pelagius), and it sounded like a Reformed manifesto (I say it again... it was the RCC talking!).
Another interesting thing on White Horse... they were interviewing people on the street about what the "essence of the Gospel is"... and people said it is everything from "do unto others"... to "the Gospel gives us the opportunity to model our lives after Christ" ... to "transformed lives"... Only one person said, "The essence of the Gospel is Christ died so that sinners condemned by their own works may live by grace through faith in His work on their behalf." (my paraphrases)
I also heard RC Sproul recently say (or the recent podcast said... don't know when he actually said it)... that he has no reason to believe Charles Finney was a Christian. He was basically a full pelagian... and, interestingly, is basically the Father of American Protestantism.
Well... God will weed the garden in due time... It's depressing... but then, thank God it is God who saves. Maybe it's not so depressing as just lonely.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/18/2008 6:26:19 PM
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Doveflight
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John, glad you appreciated White Horse Inn. I have enjoyed their discussions.
I guess I need an iPod now so I can download sermons. hmmmm. Too many other
places for my money I'm afraid.
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/18/2008 8:28:44 PM
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DougHorton
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No, you don't need an iPod, just a cheap mp3 player. Or listen from your PC or copy them to a CD and listen in the car.
I heard all of that from the White Horse Inn. I suppose if the RCC had stuck to the Canons of Orange, there might not have been a Reformation!
http://www.whitehorseinn.org/
The Canons of the Council of Orange
Here are a few:
CANON 1. If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and contradicts the scripture which says, "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:20); and, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?" (Rom. 6:16); and, "For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved" (2 Pet. 2:19).
CANON 2. If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12).
CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).
CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.
CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/18/2008 8:33:57 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 537
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Junkie
I know... These forums are just one step shy of a chat room... still the loudest shouter and fastest typer wins.
I was listening to/catching up on the last umpteen podcasts from White Horse Inn (thanks to the tip on this forum). They have been talking about "American Pelagianism"... It's really pretty shocking. Also interesting was, they were reading from the Canons of Orange (an early RCC response to Pelagius), and it sounded like a Reformed manifesto (I say it again... it was the RCC talking!).
Another interesting thing on White Horse... they were interviewing people on the street about what the "essence of the Gospel is"... and people said it is everything from "do unto others"... to "the Gospel gives us the opportunity to model our lives after Christ" ... to "transformed lives"... Only one person said, "The essence of the Gospel is Christ died so that sinners condemned by their own works may live by grace through faith in His work on their behalf." (my paraphrases)
I also heard RC Sproul recently say (or the recent podcast said... don't know when he actually said it)... that he has no reason to believe Charles Finney was a Christian. He was basically a full pelagian... and, interestingly, is basically the Father of American Protestantism.
Well... God will weed the garden in due time... It's depressing... but then, thank God it is God who saves. Maybe it's not so depressing as just lonely.
Im not surprised that Sproul would say that, finney's own doctrine make's you wonder. How could someone read the whole of the word and yet come to this conclusion:
"It is self-evident, that entire obedience to God's law is possible on the ground of natural ability. To deny this, is to deny that a man is able to do as well as he can. The very language of the law is such as to level its claims to the capacity of the subject, however great or small that capacity may be. 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all they soul, with all they mind, and with all they strength,' Here then it is plain, that all the law demands, is the exercise of whatever strength we have, in the service of God. Now, as entire sanctification consists in perfect obedience to the law of God, and as the law requires nothing more than the right use of whatever strength we have, it is, of course, forever settled, that a state of entire sanctification is attainable in this life, on the ground of natural ability."
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/19/2008 7:03:43 AM
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Doveflight
Posts: 1318
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From: middle of nowhere 4 hrs from anywhere
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Hi John,
I generally listen to White Horse Inn on my PC while doing needlework or something else. I don't know how to index a CD, is that necessary to be able to relocate where I had been? I don't know anything about and mp3, will ask my son about that one.
It is interesting the canon speaks so clearly. There has been wisdom in the RCC but there seems to be a persistent contrary spirit that drives it down another road. Ihave never had RCC experience personally but have read on church history and spoken to friends who are adamant RCC, even a protestant friend who just converted. They deny my/our perception of RCC but I've never figured out just where I'm wrong. perplexing.
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/20/2008 9:26:47 AM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2263
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
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HF,
That is truly shocking. I never paid attention to Finney... I merely associated him with the freewiller/legalist group. I have heard those view vomited on these forums before, but until now thought they were just the pontificating of individual misguided persons. It never occurred to me that the vast majority of nominal Christians in the USA actually subscribe to those views. I always had thought/hoped that it was just a failure to communicate.
============
Dove,
Usually the CD burning software will make each "song" (item/podcast/clip/etc) as its own track on the CD automatically. I don't think there is any way to index within the item itself though. You would probably have to just note the track and time that you left off (the time starts counting for each new track... this is also automatic).
iTunes is a free download and includes burning software... it will also manage podcasts for you. I have never tried to burn a podcast onto CD with iTunes, but I'm sure it's doable like with any other songs.
By the way... iPod shuffles are down to around $47 at Walmart now for the 1 GB model (er sorry... $48.72). 1 GB is more than enough space. The only downside to the shuffle is that there is no screen on it so you have to "feel your way around" or go by memory from the iTunes list to find specific things. ... and it will remember where you left off in the middle of things.
Doug is right though... if you can find a cheap(er) MP3 player that will work fine for podcasts. However, the cheapest MP3 player I found at Walmart.com was $20 (on "clearance")... and the next model up was $40. I would tend to recommend shelling out the extra $9 and get something you know is good quality (and will play everything including iTunes store music)... but that's just me. I get the willies about low-end stuff. I just got burned by the low-end model of TV at Walmart. The picture is ok, but it sounds like a tin can.
But you know... if your main listening is while sitting around the house, then save your money and just listen as you are.
I have a 2.5 to 3 hour commute every morning/evening, and so the iPod has been a real blessing for me.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/20/2008 12:53:56 PM
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Doveflight
Posts: 1318
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: middle of nowhere 4 hrs from anywhere
Status: offline
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John,
Thanks for the info and the pricing. When I am commuting anywhere I have two lovely children vying for my ear attention. I am thinking more of 5 hour stints in the chemo chair. Wireless is not available so Ican take my PC for other work or to play CDs but can't hook up to internet to hear something like White Horse Inn or audio sermons. When I'm at home my PC does the work for me. So I don't want to pay the price of a high end model but it sounds like the ipod with 1gm if that is sufficient might do the job. I can price them and the mp3 locally or watch for sales. My son's iPod was almost $200. He gets much more use of it than I would.
I know you, and Doug too, have a younger model running around as well. I've been reflecting on the time they tend to consume. Actually the time they compete to consume. If one is contentedly happy playing legos and realizes the other has my full attention, wham, in nanoseconds they are right there with a crisis. Amazes me every time. We have been spending great amounts of time focusing on the sound bites that eminate from our mouths lately. Any advise on reprogramming these models?
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/20/2008 5:33:44 PM
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Doveflight
Posts: 1318
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From: middle of nowhere 4 hrs from anywhere
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I listened to the Pelagian discussion this afternoon on White Horse Inn. I have found most of
Michael Horton's discussions there to be very informative. Thanks for drawing my attention to it.
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/21/2008 2:48:10 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 843
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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You're supposed to program, not reprogram!
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 7/21/2008 9:38:47 PM
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Doveflight
Posts: 1318
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From: middle of nowhere 4 hrs from anywhere
Status: offline
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Doug,
My first model came out quite satisfactorily. The second and third model had much interference with a husband suffering a personality disorder that he refused to deal with. He was around much more with the last two due to an injury and then retirement. He is now living elsewhere, but there unfortunately is much reprograming to due which I hope by the grace of God, I'll have the time given me to accomplish.
You've just returned after a longish sojourn somewhere and you were greatly missed. In the meantime, I removed my husband on a pfa and managing divorce negotiations right now. My children, the two youngest particularly, suffered psychological and emotional abuse and my daughter physical abuse, before i could remove him. Now we have court ordered protection and starting a new life.
So consider getting a child at the age of 7 or 9 and where would you begin after adding much prayer......My days fromthe time they wake until they fall asleep is spent discussing and teaching normal healthy behavior. Sometimes I wonder if it will ever register and if being behind the eight ball can never be overcome.
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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He chooses first (elects the elect)... but then the elect choose him. 
... looks like a definite regarding coming to faith on this side of the grave.
