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RE: calvin me wonderful - 5/6/2005 4:26:38 PM
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ReadtheBible
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Thanks Harmonmsp and Doug for explaining what the score means.
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RE: calvin me wonderful - 5/6/2005 6:08:22 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ReadtheBible
Thanks Harmonmsp and Doug for explaining what the score means.
And now that we've explained it, we seem to have lost the scoring link. Or is it just me?
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: calvin me wonderful - 5/6/2005 6:48:23 PM
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JaredMeister
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quote:
And now that we've explained it, we seem to have lost the scoring link.
Fine by me. I wasn't a big fan of that system anyway.
Can I get 2 points for saying that??? please??
_____________________________
~ Jared
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
-- Darth Vader
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/7/2005 1:35:53 AM
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Imagioday
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Hey heres a non threatening question to bat around. Im a student of theology of the five point reformed persuasion, however recently in theology class, we were discussing the Five points of calvinism as presented in the acronym TULIP. The point in question was (and isn't it always) Limited Attonement. The discussion was, and is now what I present to you, though we belive this doctrine to be true does the term do it justice?
Perhaps it should be changed, Particular Redemption? what do you Guys and Gals think?
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/7/2005 9:44:17 AM
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TheoJunkie
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Limited Atonement is technically correct, but the term "limited" has several levels of unfortunate baggage (both due to modern language and due to the ignorantly conceived propaganda about the doctrine).
I think Particular Redemption would/will eventually go the same way.
I consider that Definite Atonement is less likely to be propagandized.
It's sort of like what happened to the words "evangelical" and "fundamentalist".... they used to mean positive things in peoples heads. Now, people are searching for new titles for themselves such as "bible believing". What's the difference other than a psychologically novel term?
"Johnson, did your team utterly drop the ball or what? Gotta roll with the punches, Johnson."
"No sir, we experienced some untoward contingencies during execution of our intended procedures and were attempting to redefine the action matrix when it became apparent that the client was not understanding of our paradigm."
Part of me says, who cares? As they say, you can't judge a book by the cover.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/7/2005 8:04:44 PM
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JaredMeister
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Imagioday,
We can't use "Particular Atonement" because then it would be TUPIP.
_____________________________
~ Jared
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
-- Darth Vader
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Tulips or Roses? - 5/7/2005 8:45:07 PM
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Eutychus
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Dr Timothy George, who is Dean of Beeson Divinity School at Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama, wrote Amazing Grace, which was used as the 2001 Doctrine Study for the Southern Baptist Convention. In it, he suggested an alternative acrostic, not because the Canons of Dort were wrong, but because the five points of Calvinism are open to misinterpretation. Rather than a TULIP, he offers for consideration ROSES (which would correspond to each other):
Radical Depravity
Overcoming Grace
Sovereign Election
Eternal Life
Singular Redemption
I have found those investigating or are new to Reformed Theology receive it quite well. But old timers want no truck with it (choosing the comfortable ancient patterns, as we tend to do).
Here is a not quite ringing endorsement and basic explanation I found as a quick reference to ROSES vs TULIP:
http://www.backfreechurch.co.uk/Studies/tulips_or_roses.htm
_____________________________
-Euty
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/8/2005 1:00:38 AM
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Imagioday
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oddly enough Dr. George had come up in our discusion, as one of our number had spent some time under his tutalage at Beason. I was unaware he had actualy completed an alternate acrostic. Far be it from me to disagree, but I find his acrostic somewhat wanting, besides, TUPIP grows on you.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/8/2005 1:30:39 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
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I agree with that assessment as well Imagioday
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/8/2005 10:23:33 AM
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Doveflight
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ROSES may make more logical sense to one like myself who is coming into understanding reformed theology from rather contrary perspectives on Calvinism, but it too would soon be archaic as has already been discussed concerning fundamentalism and evangelicalism. Like mathematical prperties and theorems, I just want to understand the principle I don't care about the 'name' given to it. Which doesn't make sense to me: who walks around in everyday conversation using 'limited atonement' or 'commutative property of addition' anyway.
On another subject, I've been investigating a different translation of the Bible and have heard many recommend ESV. This weekend I found a Reformation Bible (ESV) with notes by Packer and Sproul. Are their advantages to having these comments immediately referenced in study from the reformed perspective for a novice in reformed thinking. I've always used KJV and NKJV.
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/8/2005 12:32:16 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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I don't know Dove. I think that you could simply read the scriptures and come to many of the same conclusions. My slow transformation into the Reformed doctrine came really 20 years ago when I began to question my beliefs at the time which was also taught to me since I was a chlld as I began to desire to read all of scripture from Genesis to Revelation and through this long and somewhat tedious journey(The OT and the geneology were very boring to me at the time) I began to see things that I wasn't taught, verses I didn't even know was in scripture even though I had gone to church and SS all my life.
I believe through the providence of God I began to listen on the radio to MacArthur, Piper, even Swindoll and they were teaching what I was thinking. I also through I believe the sovereignty and providence of God began to attend a Calvinist Southern Baptist Church in another state where my husband's job moved us and began to hear messages I had never heard before.......that began a journey that takes me to now where 15 years later I am where I am.....
More than you wanted to know I'm sure Dove. LOL but I love to tell the story and it is the very condensed version but I am so sure of what I believe and why and this doctrine has led to me scripture and scripture only and all of scripture from Genesis to Revelation more than any other teaching. I know more of scripture now than I have in my whole life, though always learning of course........It focuses on Christ and Christ alone, God and not the God we want him to be but the God of the Bible.
I fear that if we are not careful we will make the same mistakes the Arminians have made, changing things so as not to offend, there are some while good intentioned are softening the gospel such as using ROSES as opposed to TULIP. For example Total Depravity means what it says, we are totally depraved spiritually. Why dumb that down to make it more palitable. That is what Arminius did and look at what we have today a distorted version of the gospel of the Bible.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/8/2005 1:20:44 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ROSES may make more logical sense to one like myself who is coming into understanding reformed theology from rather contrary perspectives on Calvinism...
I agree, also as one coming from another (Arminian) tradition. It's not a matter of trying not to offend. Neither acrostic is sacred, both are intended to concisely communicate complex concepts. If one communicates a misconception, it might be helpful to outsiders looking in or newly "converted" to update it. 'Course, that's precisely why KJV is no longer my primary study Bible, communication better suited for today.
_____________________________
-Euty
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/8/2005 1:48:20 PM
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Doveflight
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Thanks bygrace, I am reading Piper, Packer, Wilson, Sproul these are the authors who led me here to learn more. In discussions here I get lost in the convoluted digressions of rabbit trails and was considering if reading with pertinent notes right there would be more logical, or just to continue my current direction of reading authors and scripture separately but testing all I read against scripture as I currently know and understand it. Does that make sense? That's can be a much longer process where it would appear the Reformation bible would be like having a mentor right there at the moment. It was a bit more money than I've anticipated paying but i haven't checked discount places yet.
_____________________________
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I am made for another world. C.S. Lewis
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/8/2005 1:52:50 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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But I'm not sure changing it is the answer. People will also find fault with the changes as well. It's just too easy to get away from the intent of the authors in this as so many translations have gotten away from the original authors intent as well. There are only 2 translations that I use and one is the ESV which I believe to be closest to the original manuscripts.
I am not comparing TULIP to the Bible, but I was also raised Arminian and knew nothing else. Yet after a lot of study I believe in all that TULIP stands for and understand it perfectly. We have to be sure that we are not trying to be the Holy Spirit as well as we have to stay true to TULIP as I see it as scriptural. I just have a concern with the Reformed dumbing down the gospel and eroding as the Arminians have......what is presented isn't inerrant as only the Bible can claim this, but I do believe it is as close to scripture and being without error as human beings can make it.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/8/2005 5:55:21 PM
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JaredMeister
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quote:
This weekend I found a Reformation Bible (ESV) with notes by Packer and Sproul. Are their advantages to having these comments immediately referenced in study from the reformed perspective for a novice in reformed thinking.
Yes, buy this bible! - if you are really searching for a new one. I have the previous Reformation Study Bible (NKJV). The notes are very helpful to understand Reformed theology -- and what I appreciate about them is that you probably won't find them in any other study bible. My only concern is that the notes are at times too brief. I had already read much on Reformed theology beforehand, so much of it was not new. But it would be great for a beginner. Btw, I also primarily use the ESV now.
_____________________________
~ Jared
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
-- Darth Vader
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/8/2005 6:09:06 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doveflight
Thanks bygrace, I am reading Piper, Packer, Wilson, Sproul these are the authors who led me here to learn more.
In discussions here I get lost in the convoluted digressions of rabbit trails and was considering if reading with pertinent notes right there would be more logical, or just to continue my current direction of reading authors and scripture separately but testing all I read against scripture as I currently know and understand it. Does that make sense? That's can be a much longer process where it would appear the Reformation bible would be like having a mentor right there at the moment. It was a bit more money than I've anticipated paying but i haven't checked discount places yet.
It makes perfect sense Dove. I also listened to Sproul and the above you mentioned. Great choices. White Horse Inn which can be found at www.oneplace.com is also excellent.
Keep checking on the Bibles you may find one more in your price range. I will be anxiously awaiting if you care to share from time to time your epiphanies. Thanks for sharing so far Dove. It's boosted my faith even higher.
< Message edited by bygraceiamsaved -- 5/8/2005 6:14:45 PM >
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 5/8/2005 7:05:27 PM
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Mr.
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Greetings to all of you reformed people!
Have a nice day!
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God is love
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