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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 9:34:30 AM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 2142
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Perhaps you should re-read what you said again. Slooooooooooooooowly.
So, you don't believe in human rights for the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Blogging the Bible
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 9:51:47 AM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
Perhaps you should re-read what you said again. Slooooooooooooooowly.
So, you don't believe in human rights for the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip?
What is your deal? I have given you no reason to be antagonistic. I do not agree with your statement either. The fact that you equate that statement with Carter displays a total neglect of the effects of how he does things and what he says. Don't condescend.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 10:02:44 AM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 2142
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You made a blanket statement about not wanting to protect a former U.S. President.
You also make a blanket statement about his perversion of human rights.
You have only given your opinion with no proof given. The issue was about how Israel does not want to protect him. You indicated that you could care less if he was protected. And then you make your comments about Syria and Carter's view on human rights.
What is your deal?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Blogging the Bible
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 10:07:12 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10885
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quote:
You also make a blanket statement about his perversion of human rights. To see what he says about Israel, read his book. Slooooooooooowly.
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"I think we cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations of the public opinion polls."
Dead Eye Dick Cheney
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 10:09:09 AM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 2142
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I have read it. Have you?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Blogging the Bible
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 11:45:11 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1671
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TheoCentric,
You should know by now that many of former President Jimmy Carter's critics on his views on Israel and the Palestinians attack him not so much because they disagree with the views and positions he takes, but rather, because he is an American Christian who criticizes Israel, and he is therefore automatically smeared as an anti-Semite. Usually these folks don't even read his book or know exactly what Carter says or believes; they just rush to conclusions and label him as a hater of Jews.
I have not yet read his book - not entirely anyway. I bought it in the winter and have been a little lax with that particular book as I was busy with Mearsheimer's and Walt's magnum opus. So I'd be guilty of lying if I told you, Theo, if I knew what he says. But eventually I'll catch up.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 11:49:25 AM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 2142
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
TheoCentric,
You should know by now that many of former President Jimmy Carter's critics on his views on Israel and the Palestinians attack him not so much because they disagree with the views and positions he takes, but rather, because he is an American Christian who criticizes Israel, and he is therefore automatically smeared as an anti-Semite. Usually these folks don't even read his book or know exactly what Carter says or believes; they just rush to conclusions and label him as a hater of Jews.
I have not yet read his book - not entirely anyway. I bought it in the winter and have been a little lax with that particular book as I was busy with Mearsheimer's and Walt's magnum opus. So I'd be guilty of lying if I told you, Theo, if I knew what he says. But eventually I'll catch up.
You need to read it. Everyone needs to read it.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Blogging the Bible
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 11:59:44 AM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 2142
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
Why should Israel guard him? I wish we didn't have to! 
What led you to state this?
I have already explained this. Israel owes him nothing, and that should be painfully obvious to everyone. We should not have to offer protection for him to go speak with terrorists. Does that clarify?
JFTR, I am not judging Carter because he hates Israel. I am judging his behaviors that are totally against the interests of the US.
Why do you say he hates Israel? Who's judging who?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Blogging the Bible
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 12:05:29 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1671
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
You need to read it. Everyone needs to read it.
Oh, I will. And you should pick up a copy of Walt's and Mearsheimer's book.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 12:07:44 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1671
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
I have already explained this. Israel owes him nothing, and that should be painfully obvious to everyone. We should not have to offer protection for him to go speak with terrorists. Does that clarify?
JFTR, I am not judging Carter because he hates Israel. I am judging his behaviors that are totally against the interests of the US.
Israel owing Carter anything or not is a simplistic and frankly, myopic view of looking at things.
Regardless of what one may think about Carter's views or behaviors, he is a former chief executive and commander-in-chief of the United States of America and he deserves protection.
If George W. Bush one day visits Israel to speak to Hamas and Israel refuses to guard him in the same manner, would you feel the same?
Furthermore, what behaviors on his part do you find to be against US interests - and what interests are those?
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 12:08:04 PM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 2142
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Is that the one about the all-powerful Israeli Lobby?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Blogging the Bible
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 12:11:34 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10885
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Read this...
quote:
Carter also laid a wreath at the grave of Yasser Arafat, whom the Bush administration and many Israelis blame for the breakdown of peace talks seven years ago and the violence that followed.
He pays homage to the foremost hater of the state of Israel and you wonder why it is seen that he hates Israel? Why the Israelis won't surround him with armed guards?
This is reality people! Not some fairy tale that only exists in someone's head.
_____________________________
"I think we cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations of the public opinion polls."
Dead Eye Dick Cheney
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 12:14:00 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1671
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
Is that the one about the all-powerful Israeli Lobby?
Yes, TheoCentric, it is. You need to read that book. It is eye-opening even to the reader who is aware of the considerable influence exerted by pro-Israel groups here in our country.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 12:17:02 PM
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TheoCentric
Posts: 2142
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
Read this...
quote:
Carter also laid a wreath at the grave of Yasser Arafat, whom the Bush administration and many Israelis blame for the breakdown of peace talks seven years ago and the violence that followed.
He pays homage to the foremost hater of the state of Israel and you wonder why it is seen that he hates Israel? Why the Israelis won't surround him with armed guards?
This is reality people! Not some fairy tale that only exists in someone's head.
Seems to me that the tale is told wrong.
The breakdown happened because Ariel Sharon made a visit to the top of the temple mount, purposefully angering Muslims.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Blogging the Bible
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 12:48:45 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10885
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From: Lone Star State
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quote:
The breakdown happened because Ariel Sharon made a visit to the top of the temple mount, purposefully angering Muslims. Yeah, right. The very same place where Solomon built the temple. Obviously has no meaning for the Jews... 
_____________________________
"I think we cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations of the public opinion polls."
Dead Eye Dick Cheney
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 1:09:59 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1549
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
I have already explained this. Israel owes him nothing, and that should be painfully obvious to everyone. We should not have to offer protection for him to go speak with terrorists. Does that clarify?
JFTR, I am not judging Carter because he hates Israel. I am judging his behaviors that are totally against the interests of the US.
Israel owing Carter anything or not is a simplistic and frankly, myopic view of looking at things.
Regardless of what one may think about Carter's views or behaviors, he is a former chief executive and commander-in-chief of the United States of America and he deserves protection.
If George W. Bush one day visits Israel to speak to Hamas and Israel refuses to guard him in the same manner, would you feel the same?
Furthermore, what behaviors on his part do you find to be against US interests - and what interests are those?
He is courting terrorists that have no respect for human life. Try reading some of the things that are posted to show this. I know that there are several people on these forums who are totally against Israel and vice versa, so they support whatever seems to make whoever look bad, but my posts are about the people themselves. It has nothing to do with a lobby.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 1:21:37 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1671
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
I was referencing what your buddy, Rich said in an earlier post. You know. The one where he judged everyone who had a different opinion than him. Quit attacking and read, fella!
You just said TheoCentric should "read."
Well, if you read my post carefully, I said that "many of former President Jimmy Carter's critics on his views on Israel and the Palestinians attack him not so much because they disagree with the views and positions he takes, but rather, because he is an American Christian who criticizes Israel, and he is therefore automatically smeared as an anti-Semite."
In other words, because they don't agree with what he says, he's said to be a hater of Jews.
This is hardly judging "everyone who has a different opinion than" me. It's fact. Ad hominems are very much part of discourse about US support towards Israel.
I'm merely addressing the fact that ad hominems occur - as they do regarding Carter.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 1:28:46 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10885
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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The Logan Act.
What good is it if it's not enforced. If not now, when?
_____________________________
"I think we cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations of the public opinion polls."
Dead Eye Dick Cheney
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 1:28:57 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1671
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
He is courting terrorists that have no respect for human life. Try reading some of the things that are posted to show this. I know that there are several people on these forums who are totally against Israel and vice versa, so they support whatever seems to make whoever look bad, but my posts are about the people themselves. It has nothing to do with a lobby.
You are twisting the facts.
By saying "courting," it's as if you imply Carter is acquiescing to their violent acts and agenda; but, you do not realize, apparently, that Hamas' leadership has political goals and that the "foot soldiers" of Hamas may not have a say in what Hamas ultimately decides - just as Fatah's "troopers" ultimately had no say when Yasser Arafat dialogued with Israel and ultimately acknowledged Israel's right to exist.
Furthermore, if merely conversing with "enemies" is courtship, then by your reasoning, President Richard Nixon "courted" mass murderers when he met Chairman Mao Tse-Tung in the early 1970s en route to the establishment of full US diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China. Remember, China was and still is a communist state. The Great Leap Forward killed at least 25 million civilians; Christianity was outlawed and believers persecuted; and, Chinese soldiers shot at and killed American soldiers during the Korean War. Yet, today, Nixon's legacy is remembered positively for his "opening" of China, despite the Watergate scandal.
Or, perhaps to you, Presidents J.F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson "courted" a bloodthirsty despot - the USSR's Nikita Khruschev - when they met him and there was a thaw in the Cold War. This despite Soviet support for North Korea, the placement of nuclear-tipped missiles in Cuba, its brutal occupation of the Eastern European communist satellites, Prague 1968, etc.
Let's not mention the Reagan administration's support for Saddam Hussein.
And yes it has to do with a lobby. The elements in America, gentile and Jew, who work to shape public opinion and policy here to favor Israel, do not hold Carter's efforts in a positive light. This is why the lobby is a master at using smear tactics, because they work all too well - after all, no one wants to be seen as an anti-Semite, even if one is NOT a hater of Jews.
Finally, please answer: if one day G. W. Bush visits the Holy Land to talk to Hamas, will you feel the same about Israel not providing protection for Bush?
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 1:36:58 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1549
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: online
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quote:
In other words, because they don't agree with what he says, he's said to be a hater of Jews.
This is hardly judging "everyone who has a different opinion than" me. It's fact.
See what I mean? You just said that all who disagree with him call him a Jew hater. I specifically explained that I do not hold to that position, so I strongly resent your statement that I do.
You are building an argument without regard for what has been said by the people that Carter is trying to befriend. Carter has a history of this behavior, as well. It is not exclusive to this situation, so do not presume to tell me that I am twisting. It seems that you are narrowing situations to support your view.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
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RE: Israelis want to Talk to Hamas - 4/15/2008 1:55:06 PM
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rabstark
Posts: 170
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
Finally, please answer: if one day G. W. Bush visits the Holy Land to talk to Hamas, will you feel the same about Israel not providing protection for Bush?[/font][/size]
If he's out of office, absolutely. What on earth makes you think that anyone would feel differently just because it would be Bush rather than Carter?
Never mind that Shin Bet doesn't want to protect someone who insists on playing games with Israel's enemies in an attempt to create a legacy for himself beyond having been the most useless president of the 20th Century... Personally, I don't think the Secret Service should be expected to provide security for any ex-president who feels the need to play diplomat without the support of the government they're pretending to represent, against the wishes of the State department, in a place where they're not wanted. I'm sure there are plenty of private security companies who would be willing to provide security for a fee, and free the Secret Service from having to put themselves in harms way for someone with no common sense.
< Message edited by rabstark -- 4/15/2008 2:06:43 PM >
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