RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (Full Version)

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armydude -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (5/30/2007 9:57:02 AM)

I did, and I'll have to admit, I expected to see something like "You gotta be kidding!"
One link that stood out to me was this. "Christian Universalism- The Beautiful Heresy"



P31W -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (5/30/2007 10:35:27 AM)

Don't get me wrong!!!! I do not believe in this view at all....however to answer the OP's question.

Yes I do believe someone can be saved and hold to the view that God is going to end up saving everyone. Does the bible teach us this? No. But one does not need to be "spot on" with all doctrine inorder to be saved....if they did I would 'never' be saved.



armydude -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (5/30/2007 1:18:02 PM)

quote:

But one does not need to be "spot on" with all doctrine inorder to be saved....if they did I would 'never' be saved.
Same here.



lw9 -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (5/30/2007 1:26:46 PM)

Can a universalist be saved? Depends.

quote:

cfl777: In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, the WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have eternal life.” If man chooses to reject God’s son, they do not meet the requirements for salvation (John 3:16,36).

With verses such as these, it becomes clear that Universalism and Universal Salvation is an anti-Biblical belief.


quote:

armydude: If all people will eventually be saved, then why would Jesus need to suffer? Why would He need to be crucified? To say that all people will be saved goes directly against Jesus' words in John 14:6. If He is the way, the truth and the life (and He is), then nobody can come to the Father (either forgiven or to even request forgiveness) except through Jesus.


Totally agree. Universalism at it's heart is a denial of salvation through Christ and a rejection of His word. When someone says: 'My God would condemn anyone!', what they are really describing is a god of their own making rather than the true God of the Holy Bible.

quote:

P31W: If they have accepted Christ as their savior then they are saved. I know when I was first saved I would have probably failed the "trinity" test because I didn't fully understand that......let's get real I don't fully understand it now either. However I do believe if a person is saved they will 'grow' in their walk with the Lord and he will begin to correct these false beliefs they hold.


Also totally agree. God does draw us to repentance and lead us into truth, but it's a process, not an event.

I think both of the above views are correct. Where I see the real problem is when a Christian is finally shown the truth of scripture regarding salvation and eternal punishment, but continues to stubbornly hold on to their false beliefs anyway. By doing this, they are showing their love for their own truth over God's truth, calling God a liar, and rejecting Christ in the process. That path is a dead end.



cfl777 -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (6/4/2007 6:19:54 AM)

Christian universalists.....???
[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

Too Funny!!!



floydette -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (6/4/2007 9:56:28 AM)

Glad to see you read the thread before you posted.... [8|]



lw9 -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (6/4/2007 1:01:25 PM)

Oops... just noticed a big mistake in my post #29. Paragraph should have read:

"Universalism at it's heart is a denial of salvation through Christ and a rejection of His word. When someone says: 'My God would never condemn anyone!', what they are really describing is a god of their own making rather than the true God of the Holy Bible."



armydude -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (6/4/2007 1:17:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

Oops... just noticed a big mistake in my post #29. Paragraph should have read:

"Universalism at it's heart is a denial of salvation through Christ and a rejection of His word. When someone says: 'My God would never condemn anyone!', what they are really describing is a god of their own making rather than the true God of the Holy Bible."
That's okay lw9. I'm sure that most of us can read typonese very well. And for the record, I agree. For some reason I'm wanting to look east.[;)]



BurninBush -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (6/10/2007 5:12:39 PM)

unitarian universalism is different from those believing in universal reconciliation

unitarian universalism is a religion based on one God representing all gods found everwhere in all religions around the world. one god equaling all gods thus all reaching their point of salvation.

as opposed to..that belief that can be found within all christian religions...

universal reconciliation or universal salvation is based on Lord Jesus Christ dying for all men once and God the Father is now in the process of attracting all men to Himself.
encompassing multiple ages and even after mans original death of the flesh. nothing can withstand the attraction as all creation was created to Glorify Him. to, through, and for Christ Glory.

the "reconciliation" part defines that all spirit originated in the Lord Jesus Christ and will return eventually. many calvinist and arminians state that mankind is trapped somewhere apart from the power of Gods love and mercy.. that just aint true. thats sounds like partial grace.
as well as mans will being above Gods will. again something sounds fishy here...

isnt God sovereign above his creation.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

this doesnt say too much about anyone denying the propitiation. it stating all debts are paid.

its now become a matter of renewing the mind to understand the lordship part of mankind.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

that "due time" part is tricky..unless there are multiple ages that mankind can be save in...
as far as i understand.. 3 ages are spoken of. the first is for the gathering of the firstfruits, second the main harvest and third saved those through the lake of fire.

but thats my beliefs..to each their own. I believe in a perfect God. not willing that any man lost.

BurninBush



figmentPez -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (6/12/2007 3:12:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BurninBush

universal reconciliation..that belief that can be found within all christian religions...


No, universal reconciliation cannot be found in any Christian faith. If someone believes that Jesus lied when He said that there are sheep and there are goats and that the goats will suffer eternally the wrath of God, then they are not Christian.



KHutcheson -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/4/2007 11:17:36 PM)

Yes, a Christian universalist can be saved. Christian Universalists believe that Christ's atoning sacrifice was made for all, and they take scripture at its word when it talks about the restoration of all things. They understand and accept the free gift of salvation. Where they differ from Calvinists and Arminians is that they don't believe an individual has to take the step of "accepting Christ" - that it's a done deal and nothing is necessary on an individuals part to be saved.

Now, whether or not their doctrine is correct is irrelevant. Probably 99% of us have incorrect doctrine. A Christian Universalist has accepted Christ, so he will be saved, just like the rest of us with incorrect doctrine. But just because he believes all people, everywhere, will be saved doesn't make it so. But because he has faith, he's covered.

Thomas Talbott has a very good book on Christian Universalism. It's called "The Inescapable Love of God."

No, for the record, I'm not a universalist. [:D] But I do have a lot of respect for their position, because there is as much scriptural support for it as calvinism and/or arminianism. (If forced to choose, I would label myself an arminian. But I fully recognize scriptural support for other positions as well.)

Kevin



figmentPez -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/6/2007 8:51:01 PM)

KHutcheson, would you care to respond to the specific points made in my last post, just before yours? How can you reconcile your claim that universalists can be saved in light of the fact that they belief something explicitly contrary to the statements of Christ?



KHutcheson -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/6/2007 10:17:03 PM)

Figment, they just interpret those verses differently than most of us would. But that doesn't matter. The only thing necessary for salvation is to believe in Christ's atoning sacrifice and accept Christ. That is the gospel, and Christian Universalists adhere to it. They understand and accept what Christ did on the cross. Where they are wrong is believing that others don't have to accept Christ to be saved. In other words, where an Arminian sees it as a two-way transaction - Christ died for us, and we must accept that sacrificed to be saved - a Christian universalist sees it as a one way transaction - that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all, and all are saved, period, regardless of what we believe or accept.

As far as beleiving something "explicitly contrary to the statements of Christ" - we are all guilty of that to some degree. We are fallen human beings, and as such none of us has perfect understanding of all the statements of Christ.

Kevin



figmentPez -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/10/2007 10:50:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KHutcheson

Figment, they just interpret those verses differently than most of us would. But that doesn't matter. The only thing necessary for salvation is to believe in Christ's atoning sacrifice and accept Christ. That is the gospel, and Christian Universalists adhere to it. They understand and accept what Christ did on the cross. Where they are wrong is believing that others don't have to accept Christ to be saved. In other words, where an Arminian sees it as a two-way transaction - Christ died for us, and we must accept that sacrificed to be saved - a Christian universalist sees it as a one way transaction - that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all, and all are saved, period, regardless of what we believe or accept.

As far as beleiving something "explicitly contrary to the statements of Christ" - we are all guilty of that to some degree. We are fallen human beings, and as such none of us has perfect understanding of all the statements of Christ.


Ah, but that's the problem, universalists DON'T believe in the atoning sacrifice of Christ! They have rejected that there is a lake of fire to be saved from! They have rejected one of the very basic tenets of the Christian faith, that there is something we need saving from, and that we must have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved from that fate. You say that their view on the necessity of faith is all that differs, but I think that's untrue, it can't be true. Jesus Christ said:

John 8:24
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

There can't be a lack of faith and salvation. That is contrary to what Jesus Christ declared, plain and simple. There is no room for argument on this matter. Faith is a must for salvation. To deny that we need faith is to deny that there is a consequence to not believing.

While we all are guilty of imperfect understanding, this is not a minor issue. This is the heart of the Gospel. The Sheep and the Goats. Those who are God's children, by adoption, and those who are children of the devil because of their sin. The quick and the dead. Those who are judged innocent in Christ and those who are judged guilty. This is not a minor part of Christianity that can be brushed aside. This is part of the heart of the Gospel. It is part of the core of Christianity. Who God is, who we are and what the relationship is between God and man.



KHutcheson -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/11/2007 7:03:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

Ah, but that's the problem, universalists DON'T believe in the atoning sacrifice of Christ!


Not as I understand it. From a Christian Universalist website: "Christian Universalism is different from Unitarian Universalism. Unlike Unitarian Universalism, Christian Universalism is the belief in universal salvation through Jesus Christ, the incarnate Lord." (www.christian-universalism.com)

And from another site (www.biblicaluniversalist.com):
"This is the teaching of universal salvation, universal reconciliation, or universal restoration (sometimes called Apokatastasis, from a Greek word meaning restoration.) This redemption is the work of God through Christ, and cannot come through any other savior."

Whoever authored those sites clearly does have faith in Christ. They clearly understand that Christ's atonement is necessary to save us from our sin and to reconcile us with God. They just don't think anyone else has to have faith. So in their own faith they are covered (but their unbelieving friends aren't).

It seems to me that the major difference between a traditional evangelical and a Christian universalist is in where they draw the line at God's grace. We evangelicals believe that at some point, God washes his hands of the truly reprobate and allows them to be separated from Him. CU's believe that God never gives up on people, and they take "the restoration of all things" literally, including the restoration of those who choose, for whatever reason, to turn their backs on God. In some ways, I think Christian Univeralists have a far less limiting view of God's love and omnipotence than we evangelicals do.

Kevin



figmentPez -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/11/2007 7:36:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KHutcheson

I think Christian Univeralists have a far less limiting view of God's love and omnipotence than we evangelicals do.


1 Corinthians 13:6
6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;

John 4:24
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

John 8:31-32
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, " If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 14:17
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 16:13
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Ephesians 4:15
but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Are you seeing the theme here? TRUTH matters! It is NOT love to proclaim a lie. It is not more loving of God to be other than the God of the Bible. It is not limiting God to proclaim the truth taught in scripture. There is no freedom in lies. There is no love in lies.



Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/11/2007 10:54:25 PM)

BurninBush, Kevin,

Enjoyed reading your posts. Welcome to Crosswalk. As you can tell by many of the statements made so far, Ultimate or Universal Reconcilliation is truly misunderstood. Hopefully you can help bring a better understanding to the forum. If nothing else you'll most assuredly get the opportunity to cultivate more fruit of the Spirit. No wound hurts as much as 'friendly fire'. [8D]

As several posters have already wisely commented...no one is 100% correct in their theology. Seems like the older one gets, the more he recognizes that fact.

DR



Universalist -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/16/2007 1:15:31 AM)

To answer the question: yes indeed a universalist can be saved, along with satanists, atheists, homosexuals and everyone else. The bottom line for me is I'm a universalist Christian because I'm convinced that is what the bible teaches in the original languages. In John's gospel Jesus says He will draw (drag) all people to Himself, so surely Jesus taught universalism Himself.
Anyway, a resource I've found very helpful for researching this issue is www.tentmaker.org, have a read of some of the writings there. I really think universalism is one of the most misunderstood doctrines of Christianity.



KHutcheson -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/16/2007 9:49:15 AM)

Hi Universalist,
Although I myself am not a universalist, I do agree with you that Christian Universalism is very misunderstood. When it comes to salvation in the scriptures, I see three distinct "thematic strands" - calvinism, armenianism, and universalism. I find it ironic that while calvinists and armenians will usually concede that there is scriptural evidence for each other's beliefs, universalists are automatically deemed heretics. A little historical research will reveal that wasn't always the case. A number of prominent early church theologians were universalists. I suspect some of today's prominent Christian theologians are closet universalists as well.

Regardless of whether or not one believes in universalism, the good news is the good news. And the good news is that Jesus Christ stood in our place and paid the penalty for our sins so that we might have eternal life.

Kevin



Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/16/2007 5:58:14 PM)

Universalist,

Welcome to the forum.

Kevin,

What a refreshing post from someone who admittedly isn't an 'universalist'. I've changed my doctrinal positions many times over the years. And I believe my initial salvation was unaffected by all those changes in 'theological' points of view. I believe my spirit is just as saved now as it was at my 'born again' experience . Many doctrinal positions, as you pointed out, have their origins going back to the earliest of times. Most won't do the research required to change. You obviously have done some research but are not convinced. That's OK too.

I might add I don't think 'universalism' and 'ultimate reconcilliation' (also called 'universal reconcilliation') are exactly the same, in terms of definition. Universalism believes all roads lead to heaven (Hindu, Buddhist, Islam, Christian ect.) But ultimate, or universal, reconcilliation believes that the only way is through Christ and his meritorious work, which He accomplished for all.

DR



Fwanger -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/16/2007 6:11:37 PM)

quote:

In John's gospel Jesus says He will draw (drag) all people to Himself, so surely Jesus taught universalism Himself.


No, Jesus did not teach universalism. Christ also said that "many are called but few are chosen." Jesus taught that there are indeed consequences to ignoring His gift of salvation. 1/3 of His teaching was devoted to what would happen to those that denied Him and His gift.

My question is how can Jesus be the Righteous Judge in universalism? Why is there a White Throne judgement, if all go to heaven? Why did Christ speak of eternal torment and damnation, and why did He teach the lesson of the sheep and goats if everyone, whether they accept Him or not, will enter the kingdom?



figmentPez -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/16/2007 9:17:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Universalist

surely Jesus taught universalism Himself.


No, Jesus said that the goats will go away to eternal punishment, just as the sheep go to eternal life. Jesus did not preach universalism.

quote:

I really think universalism is one of the most misunderstood doctrines of Christianity.


Universalism is NOT a Christian doctrine. Jesus Christ did not teach it and no one who teaches that all will be saved is a Christian.



figmentPez -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/16/2007 9:20:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KHutcheson

When it comes to salvation in the scriptures, I see three distinct "thematic strands" - calvinism, armenianism, and universalism. I find it ironic that while calvinists and armenians will usually concede that there is scriptural evidence for each other's beliefs, universalists are automatically deemed heretics.


First, you're wrong that those are the only viewpoints on election. Second, you fail to see the very important difference between Christian doctrine and unviersalism. Calvinism, Arminianism and all the other viewpoints on election are just that, viewpoints on how the elect are chosen. They are men's attempts to explain what the Bible says about there being sheep and goats, believers and unbelievers and why God gives eternal life to some and eternal punishment to others. Universalism is a complete rejection of election, a rejection that there are any goats at all that will recieve the eternal punishment that God says they will get. That's why universalism is so easily rejected as heresy.



Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/17/2007 11:39:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fwanger

Christ also said that "many are called but few are chosen."


Let me give you my understanding on this verse. I believe you are reading it incorrectly.

MAT 22:14 For many are called/kletos, but few are chosen/eklektos.

2822 kletos: invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint
1588 eklektos: select; by impl. favorite
A more correct rendering should be 'Many are saints/christians but few are select/favorites.'

The Greek word for being "called" in this verse isn't the call (Kaleo Rom 8:30) to become a Christian, it's a calling to walk like a Christian and become a select/favorite vessel that is useful to the master.

2TI 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels...to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

quote:

Why did Christ speak of eternal torment and damnation, and


He didn't speak of 'eternal' torment...that is a translation problem, and another study in and of itself. I have a Youngs Literal Translation which doesn't have the word aionios translated as eternal one time. The word aionios is a derivative of the word aion. And aion is translated as 'an age' in the NT. Grammatical laws forbid a derivative to have a force greater than the word they were derived from. For example and hour is 60 minutes long. The word hourly is a derivative of the noun hour. Hourly meetings for whatever length of time they last are still 60 minutes long. You can't say an aion is an age and then say aionios is eternity...it's grammaticaly indefensible. Aionios means something that pertains to the age.

quote:

why did He teach the lesson of the sheep and goats if everyone, whether they accept Him or not, will enter the kingdom?

For your last question, read the text in context. This judgment isn't a judgment based upon 'knowing Jesus as savior'. It is a judgment based totally upon works....feeding and giving drink. Or as I said earlier walking as a chosen vessel in obedience.

I didn't answer all your questions. Not because I couldn't but because this is long enough. I hope it helps you see that we're not just blind radicals without any scriptural basis for our beliefs. I hope you are also seeing some of the difficulty I have with your scriptures.

DR



AdrianaS -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/17/2007 2:06:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Casaubon

No has answered this yet - cana universalist be saved? I think the answer in the Bible is yes. If the way to salvation is to 'repent and believe' in Jesus then I think they can. I am suer we all hold erroneous doctrines, but we are not saved by having the right doctrine.




I do have to desagree with the un-importance of doctrine. We must hold to sound doctrine what the original Apostles teached us, we must defend it, the essencials of the faith in the Scriptures. We are not called to be indiferent regarding it at all. We must content for the faith already given to the saints.

Lord Jesus calls all sinners to repentence, in the book of Revelation and 7 specifics churchs there, He is specific and clear pointing out about many things, and telling those who are teaching, holding specific teachings from Nicolaitans, Satan's (so called deep secrets) etc they must repent, stop it and get it true and right - it is a sin to teach errors if He is calling for repentence - and He does mention those who had kept His Word and not denied His name, as to others to remember what they had received and heard to obey it. There is no gray in His words or His Apostles about teaching what and whom the teachings belongs to because we do have The Book, The Bible before us as telling us so.

False teachers must be refuted, repent from their erros, they must be rebuked as they do infect and corrupt others, keeping their listeners away from the teachings of sound doctrine of the pure Word and whole Counsel of the Word of God. (or as already mentioned in the Word, in the last days, people will be looking all over for false teachers too). Many may come from different denominations but many may hold the same essencials of the faith, we may desagree in what some call gray areas but not the essencials ones.

Galatians
1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

"Anathema!" accursed as to be cutt off from Christ and God. It is a very very serious matter to preach another Gospel and to be a false teacher, even if the messanger may look really heavenly in aparition as some may claim but satan for sure can transform himself in an angel of light. What is really great among many things about Paul focus in The Lord and his responsability as a teacher, missionary, Apostle, is that he tells his listeners to keep being Bereans, checking his own and others preaching by the Word.



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