RE: Can a Universalist be saved?

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Craig_SOtW -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/27/2007 3:29:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aphobos Origen, for example, was a universalist. He believed that God would one day restore all of creation to its rightful order -- including its sinful inhabitants. This belief, known as apokatastasis, was popular among several of the Early Church Fathers and is based on passages like 1 Corinthians 15:28. Origen was tortured and killed by Roman Emperor Decius in 254 AD. The Anathemiatisms performed by Emperor Justinian in 543 AD, was performed almost 300 years after Origen had passed away. Taught universal salvation by his father, Leonides of Alexandria, Origen's Christian Universalism was actually never anathematized. In fact Christian Universalism was held by five of the seven Catechism Schools up until the Fifth Ecumenical Council in Constantinople. In fact the anathemiatism was concerning Origen's views, was to combat other teachings that were held by those who claimed to be 'Origenists' and these monks were secretive order who just happened to preserve Origen's writings but did not nessesarily hold to his teachings. In fact, the fifth Ecumenical Council was resisted by the Pope, but the bishops got together and bypassed his authority with Emperor Justinian who by order of the Emperor, the council commenced. They declared heresy of the form of Origenism, which had practically nothing in common with Origen [such as cycles of reincarnation and the Anthropomorphism]. The fifteen anathemas were proposed not by the Church but by the Emperor. The Ecumenical Council was a not official and it's decrees not authorized. There is no proof the Pope ever agreed to them, nor is there proof he ever recanted his resistance to the council. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11306b.htm Why does modern Christianity and Roman Catholicism abide by the fifth ecumenical council? Because it was mistaken to be a decree of an actual ecumenical council and probably adhered to out of fear of Rome! It is recorded and known, that Emperor Justinian like is fathers, used religion as his way of controlling the people. Justinian achieved far reaching victories in the Nicene religious war against classical thought, Christian heterodoxy, and paganism and this was achieved by ruthless imperial decrees, the state support of forced conversions, the continuation of temple destruction, and the use of imperial troops to these ends. Would you take seriously a council established by the Elected and President body of the United States, to denounce various Christian doctrines they did not agree with? How about if you did not abide by this council, the government would make decrees, and these decrees forced conversations of all American's, burning down churches, killing Christian leaders and enlist the American Military to carry it out? How many people, today, would change their belief system to fit the council's decrees despite it was rejected by Billy Graham, Kenneth Copeland, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, etc. and were probably killed because of their rejection if they did not agree. quote: I think that now, in light of almost 2,000 years of Christian thought and reflection on the scriptures, it is virtually impossible to be a universalist and be a Christian. Still, I will admit the exceedingly slight possibility. ~Aphobos In light of 2,000 years of Christianity and Christian thought, I can say with confidence I do not know we can make any judgment on what is true based on history of the last 2,000 years. 2 Peter 2:2-3 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

figmentPez -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/27/2007 7:18:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: floydette I believe that most people have a portion or two of the character of God that they misunderstand. For example, I grew up in a church where the god that was taught was more like a policeman waiting for you to mess up, rather than a loving father. Did they preach a false god? No, I don't think so. I believe that they misunderstood alot about God. I know many people that would fall into that category. So, IF universalists misunderstand a portion of Christ's character, they would not differ from some Baptists, Lutherans or Catholics that misunderstand as well. I assume that your church didn't actually teach that God is not loving father? If they did teach that God is not loving, they would be preaching a false God. Let me give some concrete examples of the serious errors I'm talking about that seem to be inherent to believing in universalism. I know of two major groups that currently try and combine a thing they call "jesus christ" with universal reconciliation, Mormons and the "Christian" Universalism Association (previous "christian" universalism groups eventually became Unitarian Universalists and dropped any pretense of being Christian). Both of these groups deny the triune God of the Bible. They both teach false things about who Jesus Christ is, they deny truths about who Jesus Christ is. They are blatantly teaching a false God, even though they use Christian sounding words to do it. It seems that denial of accurate doctrine about God's triune nature, in some fashion or form, is central to belief in universal reconciliation. That is my concern about universalism. Not merely that someone might undersell the importance of spreading the Gospel. Not that someone might fail to see the importance of faith in relation to justice. Not that someone might fail to put the proper emphasis on all the attributes of the infinite God of everything. My concern is that belief in universalism is such a radical departure from what God declares to be true, that following universalism seems to inevitably lead to denial of the real Jesus Christ.

Craig_SOtW -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/28/2007 2:29:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: figmentPez quote: ORIGINAL: floydette I believe that most people have a portion or two of the character of God that they misunderstand. For example, I grew up in a church where the god that was taught was more like a policeman waiting for you to mess up, rather than a loving father. Did they preach a false god? No, I don't think so. I believe that they misunderstood alot about God. I know many people that would fall into that category. So, IF universalists misunderstand a portion of Christ's character, they would not differ from some Baptists, Lutherans or Catholics that misunderstand as well. I assume that your church didn't actually teach that God is not loving father? If they did teach that God is not loving, they would be preaching a false God. Let me give some concrete examples of the serious errors I'm talking about that seem to be inherent to believing in universalism. I know of two major groups that currently try and combine a thing they call "jesus christ" with universal reconciliation, Mormons and the "Christian" Universalism Association (previous "christian" universalism groups eventually became Unitarian Universalists and dropped any pretense of being Christian). There is Christian Universalists and Unitarian Universalists. They are not the same. The "Christian Universalism Association" is an association which was created in May of 2007 in order to distinctively seperate itself from the Unitarian Universalist Association as being solely Christian. To combine Mormons with Christian Universalists, is poor judgment. It is like saying Voodoo Priests are Anglican Priests. Simularities do not unite them as being one and the same in essense. quote: Both of these groups deny the triune God of the Bible. Just as some Pentacostal's deny the triune God, some do not. Do we group all pentacostals together because of the Oneness crowd even though the other group believes in a Trinity? Hasty Generalizations, are not very good proof. Have you been to Vegas? If you have, then you must be a gambler. quote: They both teach false things about who Jesus Christ is, they deny truths about who Jesus Christ is. They are blatantly teaching a false God, even though they use Christian sounding words to do it. It seems that denial of accurate doctrine about God's triune nature, in some fashion or form, is central to belief in universal reconciliation. I spend a good time myself investigating doctrines and traditions, and I believe it perhaps is the ones you have met so far that belief this and no, it is not central to the belief in Universal Reconciliation. Christian Theology, Church politics and history is facinating for me as well. I understand your passion. quote: That is my concern about universalism. Not merely that someone might undersell the importance of spreading the Gospel. Not that someone might fail to see the importance of faith in relation to justice. Not that someone might fail to put the proper emphasis on all the attributes of the infinite God of everything. My concern is that belief in universalism is such a radical departure from what God declares to be true, that following universalism seems to inevitably lead to denial of the real Jesus Christ. Well, then your concern will be destroyed if I introduce you to a Trinitarian Christian Universalist who understands and knows the need of the great commission to go and make disciples of all mankind, bringing the wonderful Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world so that they too may be saved Gehenna Judgment (Hell [Gehenna Judgment is what Jesus warns about in the gospels and is always mistranslated in our bible's as "hell"]). The one thing we cannot judge is the heart of any, especially those who announce they follow Jesus Christ. Those who walk by the Spirit, there is no law. 1 John 4:1-3 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. How do we test the spirits? Galations 5:16-26 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. I understand your concern Fig, it is a great concern to me when I see people deny Jesus Christ in favor of a doctrine that pleases their comfort zones. I do not believe Christian Universalism has proven to enivtiably deny Him nor (as I have shown previously to this) is a radical departure from the Gospel. It holds the same premises as Calvinism and Ariminianism, which in themselves have a radical departure or seperation concerning their views of the Gospel. I also understand your concern, with those who believe that the grace of God is a freedom or license to sin. We know that people have slipped among us, godless men who have changed grace as being a license to sin. Such men, are destined to destruction. Jude 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. We both know that their place is in the Lake of Fire (Gehenna Judgment), and will not inherit the Kingdom of God. What we do not know for sure, is exactly who these men are, because they exist in orthodox and traditional Christianity, both protestant and catholic. So we know together, that God is the Lawgiver and Vengence is His. James 4:11-13 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you�who are you to judge your neighbor? One day, I hope for unity in faith as well, there is way too many individuals who hold claim to what is true. The only thing I know for sure, is there is no other way to the Father except through Jesus Christ. He is at least our Lord and Savior, I believe this very much and I hope you do too! :D Peace brother.

Janice54 -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (9/20/2007 12:32:22 AM)
I just saw this discussion and am impressed with Craig's posts pertaining to Christian Universalism. My husband and I are studying this doctrine and find it very interesting. This is after a life time of pentecostal and baptist backgrounds. I find the historical info fascinating and the doctrinal arguments faith building.

maroczykotov -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (9/20/2007 6:08:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansC Can a Universalist be saved? Can someone who holds to the belief of Universalism be saved? By universalism I mean the belief that ALL people will eventually end up in heaven, that a good and loving God would not condemn man to eternal darkness. What do you guys think? Hans Believers believe because they feel the anger of God on them for their sins and that they deserve His JUST wrath. They believe because they see that the only way to Him is through His loving provision of a sacrifice in Jesus Christ. God is love but He is not blind. He is love that He gave Jesus for us to believe in and be saved. Only through the washing of His blood that he will be blind to the sins of the believer. We are not to latch on to a blind faith that we will not die because God is love. God is just that he sent Jesus to be punished for the believer. He has proven his love by not being so ultra permissive or blind to the truth that we sin so He sent His Son. Jesus died for sinners, those who will believe will not perish in his anger. John�3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. This type of universalist thinking usually has a disbelief of hell. I do not believe that true believers have that disbelief and that hell will not be used for the very purpose it was created.

maroczykotov -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (9/20/2007 6:16:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi quote: ORIGINAL: HansC Can a Universalist be saved? Can someone who holds to the belief of Universalism be saved? By universalism I mean the belief that ALL people will eventually end up in heaven, that a good and loving God would not condemn man to eternal darkness. What do you guys think? Hans Can A Universalist be saved? Of course. In the same way, a Baptist or Catholic can be damned. Membership in a particular group does not guarantee or prohibit salvation. Why? Because you can be a member of a group and still not agree with EVERY doctrinal point. I'm sure I don't agree with EVERY point of Baptist doctrine, yet I am a member. Also, so many people are ignorant of doctrine. You might have thought that every citizen of Jericho would be damned. But they weren't. When it came to crunch time, Rahab sided with Jehovah. I sure He has His eternal eye on a Universalist or two and He will call them to faith in Christ when the time comes. So I can be a Taoist and remain a Taoist and be saved? Rahab believed, do you think she remained a heathen?

maroczykotov -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (9/20/2007 6:30:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: P31W Don't get me wrong!!!! I do not believe in this view at all....however to answer the OP's question. Yes I do believe someone can be saved and hold to the view that God is going to end up saving everyone. Does the bible teach us this? No. But one does not need to be "spot on" with all doctrine inorder to be saved....if they did I would 'never' be saved. This is another gospel. There is only One Way. How then should we think of people who believe another gospel? Aren't they suppose to be called unbelievers? The gospel is the very foundation of our doctrines. It is not just a doctine. It is THE DOCTRINE on which we hang our faith.

maroczykotov -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (9/20/2007 6:33:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Universalist To answer the question: yes indeed a universalist can be saved, along with satanists, atheists, homosexuals and everyone else. The bottom line for me is I'm a universalist Christian because I'm convinced that is what the bible teaches in the original languages. In John's gospel Jesus says He will draw (drag) all people to Himself, so surely Jesus taught universalism Himself. Anyway, a resource I've found very helpful for researching this issue is www.tentmaker.org, have a read of some of the writings there. I really think universalism is one of the most misunderstood doctrines of Christianity. How can a satanist be saved without believing in Jesus? John 3:36

TheoJunkie -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/1/2007 6:35:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansC Can a Universalist be saved? Can someone who holds to the belief of Universalism be saved? By universalism I mean the belief that ALL people will eventually end up in heaven, that a good and loving God would not condemn man to eternal darkness. What do you guys think? Hans You are saved by grace through faith in Christ as your lord and savior. A universalist might be a really ineffective evangelist, but that wouldn't affect his own salvation. On the other hand, if the person in his universalism felt that he himself did not need Christ, then that's a different story.

Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/2/2007 11:36:58 AM)
John, quote: TheoJunkie A universalist might be a really ineffective evangelist, but that wouldn't affect his own salvation. Or a universalist might be a very effective evangelist. Our last pastor couldn't figure out how I could believe in ultimate reconcilliation and still bring as many people as I had to our church..and to the faith. One of those men was a local optometrist who our pastor led in the 'sinner's prayer'. But at a men's breakfast when he was asked why he became a Christian he pointed to me and gave me all the credit. Our pastor was sitting there when he said that. I've often wondered was he was thinking at that point. quote: maroczykotov Believers believe because they feel the anger of God on them for their sins and that they deserve His JUST wrath. That may have been your experience but it certainly isn't the experience of all believers as you indicate in the quote above. I believed because I felt the love of God 'for me'...not his wrath or anger. DR

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TheoJunkie -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/2/2007 12:06:39 PM)
H4A, I'm curious... what is your Gospel presentation? What do you tell people?

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Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/2/2007 1:34:04 PM)
John, If you're wondering whether I jump in first thing with 'Christian Universalism'...the answer is no. But I do live in the bible belt, so running into people who really don't know anything just doesn't happen much...even in the jail ministry (most of them are Hispanic Catholics). Often my approach isn't much more than my testimony and answering their arguments against 'the church hurts', 'the hipocracy', 'the divisions', 'the bible' ect ect. Billy Graham once said if you listen to the words of a man's mouth, God will give you the words to feed his soul. I like that approach for me personally. I also live in farm country and believe throwing seed on a hard heart is 'dumb farming' so I try to soften hearts with God's love being shown to them through me. I do believe that the 'gospel' is 'good news' and not bad news...so I don't make a point of talking about the hell of traditional Christianity. Paul wrote a third of the NT and was one of the greatest evangelist there ever was...and he never mentioned hell once!!! But the basics of my message are still the basics. Jesus was the son of God who came to earth and lived a perfect/sinless life. He died on a cross for the sins of the whole world because He loved us...but also because He loved the Father and wanted to be obedient to Him. And it is in that obedient relationship that one will find the life of God that's available here and now. I sometimes stress that even if there wasn't a heaven I would still be a believer simply because life with Jesus is a better life than I had as an unbeliever. I find that almost all people know about 'church hell' and that obviously hasn't motivated them to seek God any more than it has motivated most "Christians" to witness to their next door neighbor. That's a big overview I guess. Did I pass? DR

TheoJunkie -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/2/2007 3:24:58 PM)
H4A, Thank you for your explanation. It appears that "the reason to believe" in your opinion is limited to temporal blessings. Is that correct?

Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/2/2007 6:21:52 PM)
John, I didn't mean to make it sound like it's just temporal...that certainly isn't what I believe. But if the temporal is right the eternal will take care of itself IMO. I am just tired of a Christianity that's all about eternal hell or heaven all the while falling short of the gospel for here and now. Actually it sort of makes me wonder whether they really got the gospel...or just a Christian religious spirit. If what's on many "Christians" faces is what's in their hearts...I don't want what they got. I hope you know what I mean with that statement. DR

TheoJunkie -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/2/2007 8:54:46 PM)
quote: But if the temporal is right the eternal will take care of itself IMO. And what if the temporal is not right? quote: I am just tired of a Christianity that's all about eternal hell or heaven all the while falling short of the gospel for here and now. I agree... but it seems like you are thowing the baby out with the bathwater.

Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/3/2007 11:08:06 AM)
John, quote: And what if the temporal is not right? If they're not 'born again', then they haven't experienced initial 'salvation'. The question is, how do you/I know if they're 'born again' or not? I know guys from the jail ministry who have come foreward and said 'the prayer'. Does that mean they're 'saved'? How can I tell if they were sincere or not. They don't even know...because when the next 'emotionally charged' preacher comes along...they go foreward again... and again...and again. So did they believe the first time they 'said the sinner's prayer, or was it the second, the third...or not at all? I don't know...would you? But if people aren't walking in the promises of the 'here and now' gospel, something is definitely wrong with their walk 'here and now'. Whether they're born again or not, who really knows? I'll leave that judgment in God's capable hands. And I'll continue to work with their 'here and now' salvation. Is "knowing them by their fruits" just an indicator of false prophets in your opinion? quote: I agree... but it seems like you are thowing the baby out with the bathwater. Elaborate. DR

TheoJunkie -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/3/2007 11:31:56 AM)
quote: If they're not 'born again', then they haven't experienced initial 'salvation'. What is "initial 'salvation'", and why is that important? quote: The question is, how do you/I know if they're 'born again' or not? No, I don't think that is the question in this thread at all. It doesn't matter what you or I think about them. What matters (in this thread, and with application in the real world), is whether a person who does not come to faith not only misses out on "initial salvation", but also on "eternal salvation." quote: Is "knowing them by their fruits" just an indicator of false prophets in your opinion? No. Actually, false prophecy is the indicator of false prophets. But this too doesn't have anything to do with universalism. quote: Elaborate. It appears from the last post and again in the one I am responding to, that you have decided that everyone is saved and goes to heaven, regardless of faith... just because you are frustrated with the tendency of some to judge and shun here and now. I agree that it is not ours to proclaim eternal judgement... but the fact that some humans overstep their bounds (even if in their own mind), does not mean that no judgment exists. Edit: by "proclaim eternal judgement" I do NOT mean "preach eternal judgment for sin". I mean that God is the judge of faith, not us. We have no ability (therefore, no place) to tell someone that they individually do not have faith (especially against their protestations to the contrary). We are, however, the messengers of God's eternal and perfectly just judgment of death against sin and those who commit it.... AND we are the messengers of God's free gift of mercy and eternal life to all who trust in Christ.

Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/4/2007 12:21:31 AM)
Theojunkie, quote: What is "initial 'salvation'", and why is that important? For me, initital salvation is the regeneration of the spirit which comes from bowing the knee (repentance) and confessing Jesus as lord. quote: quote: DR: The question is, how do you/I know if they're 'born again' or not? Theo: No, I don't think that is the question in this thread at all. It doesn't matter what you or I think about them. What matters (in this thread, and with application in the real world), is whether a person who does not come to faith not only misses out on "initial salvation", but also on "eternal salvation." Actually John the question of this thread is can a universalist be saved...isn't it? I think we're in agreement that one can, but correct me if I'm wrong. I believe you are missing my belief in this thread. Initial salvation is eternal salvation and that salvation is of your spirit...not your soul and not your body IMO. quote: We are, however, the messengers of God's eternal and perfectly just judgment of death against sin and those who commit it.... AND we are the messengers of God's free gift of mercy and eternal life to all who trust in Christ. I believe I'm fulfilling that mandate. I just have a different defintion of 'eternal'. And like Jesus I (try to ) never condem the sinner and I never condone the sin [:)] quote: It appears from the last post and again in the one I am responding to, that you have decided that everyone is saved and goes to heaven, regardless of faith... just because you are frustrated with the tendency of some to judge and shun here and now. I 'do not believe' the way iit "appears" to you. No one is saved/regenerated this side of glory or on the other side without the grace of God, repentance, and confession of Jesus as Lord. As far as your concern with "regardless of faith", I can't answer for sure...maybe the faith of those in the hereafter will be just like the faith of Thomas...who also had to see to believe. I think you may have spoke a greater spiritual truth than you realized when you said: quote: God is the judge of faith, not us BTW I'm not frustrated with judging and shunning...if it's of God. Aren't I judging presence or absence of fruit? I've actually turned two rebellious believers over to Satan in my life at the leading of the Spirit (IMO [8D]). Both of them are now back in my life (2/3 yrs. later) having suffered what God allowed to bring them to repentance. One of them is actually in the only '40 man pod' of our jail that I visit on Tuesday nights. We have three big pods and several smaller ones. Gotta go to bed... men's breadfast is at 6am. gnite DR

TheoJunkie -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/4/2007 7:41:06 AM)
DR, Why is it important for someone to believe TODAY and not just blow it all off. You haven't answered this question.

floydette -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/4/2007 8:09:02 AM)
I can see why they'd want to believe TODAY vs blowing it all off. Because you get an awesome relationship with God. Healing, companion, comfortor, guidance, friendship, etc, etc. All, with the God of the Universe. You have access to all kinds of benefits. Who wouldn't want to be healed of their addictions for example? I think the question is why WOULD you wait? [:D]

Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (10/4/2007 9:40:53 AM)
quote: TheoJunkie DR, Why is it important for someone to believe TODAY and not just blow it all off. You haven't answered this question I haven't? quote: DR post #90 I sometimes stress that even if there wasn't a heaven I would still be a believer simply because life with Jesus is a better life than I had as an unbeliever. I do believe that the 'gospel' is 'good news' and not bad news... #92 I am just tired of a Christianity that's all about eternal hell or heaven all the while falling short of the gospel for here and now. If what's on many "Christians" faces is what's in their hearts...I don't want what they got. #94 But if people aren't walking in the promises of the 'here and now' gospel, something is definitely wrong with their walk 'here and now'. I would say I have answered...in several posts and several times. I am curious as to why you aren't seeing any of those answers, you're usually more astute IMO. Floydette, You got it! [:)] Anyone hoping to make a 'death bed confession' to go to heaven, never even understand the gospel of the Kingdom of God here and now IMO. DR

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