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That depends on whether those denying him tenure considered ID religious or not.

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Well, considering ID implies a supernatural element is is indeed religious by nature.

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Which ISU, Jack? (e.g. Illinois State, Iowa State, etc).

For the record, I went to Illinois State

I don't recall any religious/speech-related controversies while I was there.

If anything, the only campus issue that irritated me during my studies was a boneheaded, PC-driven effort to revise the school motto (which was adapted from Chaucer) to be gender-neutral.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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The astronomer was not denied tenure on religious grounds. Therefore that example does not fall under persecution of Christians.

That depends on whther those denying him tenure considered ID religious or not.

What do you suppose?

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He is not claiming religious discrimination. Therefore he is not being persecuted as a Christian. One of the ID problems is that proponents want it both ways. It's science when that's convenient, but it's religious when that's convenient.

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I recall our schools met up in the first round of the men's NCAAs in 1997; the Cyclones whomped the Redbirds but good

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ORIGINAL: EverLearning

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ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3

If the incidents sighted are examples of persecution, then what would you call what Christians go through in other counttries where they have to meet in secret, where they are jailed and tortured until they either die or renounce their faith?

Someday Christians may very well be persecuted in our country, but we are miles away from that at the present time. These are inconveniences designed to test us.

We americans sure do like to complain when the cover of our cushy little pillow gets wrinkled and ignore those in other parts of the world are beaten, ridiculed, jailed, or killed for their faith. The fact that someone won't let me pray at work or at school is not persecution in my book, I can still worship as i see fit and go to church openly without fear of anyone acting out against me. We Americans want our faith to be easy, we want to be accepted everywhere. I guess we want to be better than our Lord and Saviour who was beaten, spat upon, and crucified. We want to ignore the fact that he told us we would be hated just as he was hated. We want to cry because we can't pray out loud in our cubicles at work or at our graduations, never mind the fact that noone seeks to crucify us and ask us to denounce our religion. Never mind that we are free to practice our religion, outside of work and school, however we see fit as long as it doesn't injure others. Never mind that we live cushy feel good lives and most of us would faint cold just to see what Christians in other parts of the world are subjected to.

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ORIGINAL: todd_t

Riddle me this: how can a majority be persecuted?

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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He is not claiming religious discrimination. Therefore he is not being persecuted as a Christian. One of the ID problems is that proponents want it both ways. It's science when that's convenient, but it's religious when that's convenient.

Well, no. If someone discriminates against me presuming me to be a Jew when I am not, it doesn't make me any less discriminated against, and it doesn't releive the perpetrator of being an anti-semite.

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ORIGINAL: brotherbrian

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ORIGINAL: todd_t

Riddle me this: how can a majority be persecuted?

By the tyranny of the minority--it's how Roe v Wade became the law of the land.

Most people who have no problem with being denied previous rights to exercise their faith publicly (I've found) weren't the kind of folks who ever bothered to exercise those freedoms in the first place.

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ORIGINAL: brotherbrian

we ARE losing freedoms we previously enjoyed, and that is a first step we have no business accepting while lying down.

What freedoms would you personally have to lose in order to give a rat's rump about the issue?

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ORIGINAL: brotherbrian

There's a fine line between being allowed to wear a cross around your neck and being forced by the state to wear one around your neck for identification purposes.

Just ask some eighty year old European Jews.

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ORIGINAL: cow257

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ORIGINAL: brotherbrian

There's a fine line between being allowed to wear a cross around your neck and being forced by the state to wear one around your neck for identification purposes.

Just ask some eighty year old European Jews.

LOL, that is a line a mile wide.

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Then why not claim religious discrimination, which is illegal? Or could it be that the real bias is ethnic?

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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Then why not claim religious discrimination, which is illegal? Or could it be that the real bias is ethnic?

I am not sure how such a lawsuit would precede; could I claim religious discrimination as a Jew, when in fact I am not one?

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As Christianity is the most powerful and widespread faith in America,

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ORIGINAL: joeshappywife

I agree that persecution in the US rarely, if ever, is life threatening. However, to say that those who have had to endure it to whatever degree are whiners is being a bit condesending. To say that because the courts have made redress is to negate the initial acts of harassment, and that is not fair. Having to even go to the courts should not take place. My family, three generations ago, came to this country for various reasons, and I have chosen to stay here for some of the same and some different ones. Freedom to live out my faith without harassment is a main one.
I will share a very personal example for all of you needing one.
My husband is a public high school teacher and has had to use his personal time and his own, and others, resources, to defend his job because he chose to sponsor the on-campus Bible Study. Now, he never led the group, it was completely student led, he simply allowed them to meet in his room, and he was the teacher present at meetings which was required for all on-campus clubs.
I will fully agree that his life was never threatened, but his livlihood was. I will agree also that in the end, his job ended up safe, but it doesn't negate the fact that he had to fight the fight in the first place. It was time and resources that could have been better used.
Again, maybe this was only harassment, but it was still because of his faith and the way he chose to live it out...completely within the rules that had been set out.
Thanks for letting me share our experience. It's only one example, but I feel strongly that it should have never happened in the first place.

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The HUGE difference is that outside of government funded institutions and some work places you are FREE to worship as you please with very little fear that anyone will come and kill you for it.

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Having to pray siliently at work or at a school event is not persecution.

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No one is hounding you to denounce your religion,

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ORIGINAL: CleverName

Well, here we go. The ADF website I linked earlier is replete with such cases. Moreover, no matter how many Chinese are rotting in prison for their faith, these cases are most certainly persecution, albeit of a lighter kind.

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One of the reasons these incidents happen is the "you can't have religion at school" myhtology perpetrated by Christians. So you see isloated cases where principals and administrators show their ignorance of the law.

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ORIGINAL: CleverName

Thank you, Cow, but no matter how much you try to redefine the word, persecution is not as narrow as you demand it be. Why do you insist on this narrow definition?

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One of the reasons these incidents happen is the "you can't have religion at school" myhtology perpetrated by Christians. So you see isloated cases where principals and administrators show their ignorance of the law.

You mean, school administrators have begun abusing the rights of Christians because Christians told them that was normal? [>:] No. These things happen for two reasons.
1. The idea that religious freedom demands a total lack of any religious activity in govt. buildings.
2. The fear of lawsuits from people that hold to belief number 1.

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It would be like Martin Luther King walking into a Klan's meeting and declaring he was descriminated against there.

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OK, I'm confused. Are you saying that Gonzales is being persecuted? That's what I gathered from your post. The EEOC covers employment, which would be the case for legal redress here. I have no doubt Gonzales could get help from any number of sources if he wanted to pursue that route.