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RE: Persecution in America? - 6/1/2007 2:20:48 PM
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brotherbrian
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow257
quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherbrian
As for Roe v Wade, in no way was "any time, any reason" legalized abortion wanted by the vast majority of Americans in 1973. NO way.
The courts enacted this horrible law against the will of the majority--hence, the tyranny of the minority.
State sanctioned persecutory laws against Christians could be passed just as easily.
For a guy who seems to distrust the government to no small degree, you sure are trusting of them protecting the rights of Christians, Cow.
The courts do not enact laws. The Supreme Court rules on cases to interpret laws in light of the constitution. I'm not endorsing the Roe decision, just pointing out that it is not a law. Since then laws with respect to abortion have been enacted to limit abortions and the court recently upheld the partial birth ban.
A republic involves majority decisions, but is not exclusively rule by majority. Otherwise there would still be widespread legal racial discrimination. I do trust the "checks and balances" system to take care of things overall. That does not mean instant gratification, nor me getting everything done my way. you misunderstand the way government functions in the US.
For Pete's sake, Cow--you know what I meant--are we gonna play it this way?
The "abortion on demand" statutes wouldn't exist had not the USSC "reinterpreted" the Constitution, and allowed it to be made legal to suck the brain out of a living, feeling human being who had the bad luck to be growing inside the belly of a woman who doesn't want it.
Do you deny the possibility that the USSC could do something similar that would result in persecutory laws being passed that affect our rights to religious freedom as Christians--yes or no?
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RE: Persecution in America? - 6/1/2007 6:44:02 PM
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SonInMe1
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The courts made abortion legal.
They did not force anyone to have an abortion unlike many other countries out there. There is the rub. In our country abortion is legal. In China, if I remember correctly, abortion is mandatory in certain circumstances.
To me the chinese way is persecution. Our way is freedom.....the ability to accept more responsibility.
If you are persecuted by your peers, then so be it. There is a difference when you are persecuted by your government.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Persecution in America? - 6/2/2007 9:17:43 AM
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EverLearning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherbrian
For crying out loud! The Roe v Wade analogy shows that the wishes and/or morals of the majority aren't always honored due to the tyranny of the minority--in this case the US Supreme Court.
I'm not using it as an example of a persecutory law. I'm using it as an example of how something one would have never believed possible to be made legal, CAN be made legal, and that includes laws that could be allowed that are persecutary against Christianity and Christians.
Well I thought we were talking about persecution and as such was looking for you to provide examples of such, instead you keep throwing abortion out there.
quote:
A very small faction of pro-abortionists convinced the court that the Constitution somehow guarantees a woman the right to kill a child within her womb for any reason at all, and just about at any stage of development.
The difference is that nowhere in the constitution was it spelled out explicitly that abortion is illegal, yes i know that it all hinges on ones beliefs as to when life begins as whether abortion is murder or not. In contrast it is clearly written that we have the right to practice our religion, there is nothing to interpret in that one.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 6/2/2007 5:57:13 PM
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brotherbrian
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Nothing's "open to interpretation" regarding freedom to practice religion in the Constitution?
If Roe v Wade proved ANYTHING, it's that the Supreme Court can interpret anything at all as they see fit.
You mentioned that nowhere in the Constitution does it say a woman can't have an "any time, any reason abortion", so that's how it was allowed into law.
Well in the same token, there are LOTS of abhorant behaviours and actions not specifically named in the same document--are we then to assume that they're all "okay"?
The FACT is that the interpretation of "freedom of religion" differs from person to person, region to region, and from one Supreme Court Justice to another.
NEVER underestimate the power of revisionist Supreme Court Justices.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 6/3/2007 9:14:54 AM
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EverLearning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherbrian
Nothing's "open to interpretation" regarding freedom to practice religion in the Constitution?
It is an explicitly spelled out right in the constitution so no it is not open to interpretation.
quote:
If Roe v Wade proved ANYTHING, it's that the Supreme Court can interpret anything at all as they see fit.
what part of the constitution exactly did the Supreme Court misinterpret in the Roe V wade case?
quote:
You mentioned that nowhere in the Constitution does it say a woman can't have an "any time, any reason abortion", so that's how it was allowed into law.
I never said anything about anytime any reason so please don't put words into my mouth.
quote:
The FACT is that the interpretation of "freedom of religion" differs from person to person, region to region, and from one Supreme Court Justice to another.
show me one instance of where there is a misinterpretation of right to the freedom of religion. The freedom of religion is explicitly spelled out and therefore I don't see it being in any danger of repeal anytime soon.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 6/3/2007 9:35:25 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherbrian
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow257
quote:
ORIGINAL: brotherbrian
As for Roe v Wade, in no way was "any time, any reason" legalized abortion wanted by the vast majority of Americans in 1973. NO way.
The courts enacted this horrible law against the will of the majority--hence, the tyranny of the minority.
State sanctioned persecutory laws against Christians could be passed just as easily.
For a guy who seems to distrust the government to no small degree, you sure are trusting of them protecting the rights of Christians, Cow.
The courts do not enact laws. The Supreme Court rules on cases to interpret laws in light of the constitution. I'm not endorsing the Roe decision, just pointing out that it is not a law. Since then laws with respect to abortion have been enacted to limit abortions and the court recently upheld the partial birth ban.
A republic involves majority decisions, but is not exclusively rule by majority. Otherwise there would still be widespread legal racial discrimination. I do trust the "checks and balances" system to take care of things overall. That does not mean instant gratification, nor me getting everything done my way. you misunderstand the way government functions in the US.
For Pete's sake, Cow--you know what I meant--are we gonna play it this way?
The "abortion on demand" statutes wouldn't exist had not the USSC "reinterpreted" the Constitution, and allowed it to be made legal to suck the brain out of a living, feeling human being who had the bad luck to be growing inside the belly of a woman who doesn't want it.
Do you deny the possibility that the USSC could do something similar that would result in persecutory laws being passed that affect our rights to religious freedom as Christians--yes or no?
Yes. The only way would be for a complete breakdown of current government AND the media.
_____________________________
Wer weiß, was Übel im Herzen der Männer lauert? Nur der Schatten weiß. Giants 17 Patriots 14.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 6/3/2007 12:49:52 PM
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brotherbrian
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I'm done with this one fellas.
I feel my analogies are relavant and apropos, and that these "inconveniences" have been and will continue to be pursued on an escalating scale, and successfully.
Obviously, we differ on what constitutes the terms "proactively vigilant", and "crying wolf", and will stay that way.
Have a great Lord's day, guys.
:)
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RE: Persecution in America? - 3/28/2008 11:00:35 PM
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drcain
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I thought I would bump this thread up a bit.
Location: Azerbaijan
Arrested: May 2007
On May 20, 2007, Pastor Zaur Balaev was arrested for “conducting an illegal religious meeting” in his home village in Aliabad, Azerbaijan. In August, he was sentenced to two years in prison under Article 315, Part 1, for allegedly violently resisting the police during a raid. The authorities first claimed that Pastor Balaev released a dog on police, but have since claimed he attacked five policemen and damaged a car door. During the trial, some witnesses reported that police had pressured them into testifying against Pastor Balaev.
Read it here.
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What? Me worry?
Matthew 6:34
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RE: Persecution in America? - 3/29/2008 8:48:07 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drcain
I thought I would bump this thread up a bit.
Location: Azerbaijan
Arrested: May 2007
On May 20, 2007, Pastor Zaur Balaev was arrested for “conducting an illegal religious meeting” in his home village in Aliabad, Azerbaijan. In August, he was sentenced to two years in prison under Article 315, Part 1, for allegedly violently resisting the police during a raid. The authorities first claimed that Pastor Balaev released a dog on police, but have since claimed he attacked five policemen and damaged a car door. During the trial, some witnesses reported that police had pressured them into testifying against Pastor Balaev.
Read it here.
More like he was probably arrested for being a Christian in a Muslim country. They tend to frown on that.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 3/29/2008 11:18:30 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: drcain
I thought I would bump this thread up a bit.
Location: Azerbaijan
Arrested: May 2007
On May 20, 2007, Pastor Zaur Balaev was arrested for “conducting an illegal religious meeting” in his home village in Aliabad, Azerbaijan. In August, he was sentenced to two years in prison under Article 315, Part 1, for allegedly violently resisting the police during a raid. The authorities first claimed that Pastor Balaev released a dog on police, but have since claimed he attacked five policemen and damaged a car door. During the trial, some witnesses reported that police had pressured them into testifying against Pastor Balaev.
Read it here.
More like he was probably arrested for being a Christian in a Muslim country. They tend to frown on that.
This is persecution, unlike the incidents cited in America.
_____________________________
Wer weiß, was Übel im Herzen der Männer lauert? Nur der Schatten weiß. Giants 17 Patriots 14.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 3/29/2008 3:46:56 PM
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drcain
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
More like he was probably arrested for being a Christian in a Muslim country. They tend to frown on that.
My bad, yes. This man is a Christian in a Muslim country.
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What? Me worry?
Matthew 6:34
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RE: Persecution in America? - 3/31/2008 5:30:43 AM
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Annie64
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I read the entire thread, and I want to put in my 2 cents worth. I see what some people were trying to say with defining persecution. Some people were saying that the persecution we have in America isn't as bad as what others in other countries face, and therefore it isn't really persecution at all, and some said that it is. I think two different things may have been in people's minds.
Sometimes we cry persecution when there is no persecution. Case in point, in my city several years ago a church was seized by the government and shut down. It's members kept saying the government was persecuting them and how could such a thing happen in the United States? To their surprise, the other churches in the city did not back them up. You see, what had actually happened was that they were running a school in their church and not paying their payroll taxes. They had somehow decided they should be exempt. Their building was seized to pay their back taxes. At the time, my husband and I were working in a Christian school housed in a church and taxes were being withheld from our every paycheck, as was right and should have been. What happened to that other church was that they themseles decided to break the law, and then try to play the persecution card when they got in trouble.
On the other hand, there was a link toward the beginning of the thread to a site that told a story of a photographer who refused to take pictures of a homosexual "commitment ceremony," when the couple tried to hire them. They were being sued and could have lost their livelihood. Of course, this was maybe a year ago, and I don't know how it turned out. They could have won. If the right thing happened, they did or will in the end. It seemed to me that those who wanted to say that that wasn't "real persecution" seemed to have only a limited amount of compassion and wanted to use it all for worse situations, like rescuers at an accident scene with multiple victims performing triage--treating the more seriously wounded people first, because there's not enough personnel to treat every injury. Does that mean the person with the broken leg is not really injured because somebody else needed CPR? Is a broken leg not enough of an injury to be called a real injury? And if it isn't, do we really need to have compassion toward the person with the broken leg? Does my analogy make any sense at all?
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ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 3/31/2008 7:15:56 AM
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TheoCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drcain
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
More like he was probably arrested for being a Christian in a Muslim country. They tend to frown on that.
My bad, yes. This man is a Christian in a Muslim country.
Actually Ajerbaijan is a secular country with a largely Muslim population. There is nothing to indicate that this was Muslim vs. Christian in this instance. It may well be something similar to Uzbekistan where no one is allowed to operate their religious meetings.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/aj.html
http://www.azerbaijan.az/_News/_news_e.html?lang=en
There is nothing to indicate that it is a "Muslim" country, only that a majority of it's citizens are Muslim.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 3/31/2008 8:14:23 AM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: drcain
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
More like he was probably arrested for being a Christian in a Muslim country. They tend to frown on that.
My bad, yes. This man is a Christian in a Muslim country.
Actually Ajerbaijan is a secular country with a largely Muslim population. There is nothing to indicate that this was Muslim vs. Christian in this instance. It may well be something similar to Uzbekistan where no one is allowed to operate their religious meetings.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/aj.html
http://www.azerbaijan.az/_News/_news_e.html?lang=en
There is nothing to indicate that it is a "Muslim" country, only that a majority of it's citizens are Muslim.
That ignores the political (or religious) trends on the local level. It is a secular country like Iraq, Turkey, Egypt but there is a great push by the Islamists to make these countries subject to Sharia. Turkey relented on its headscarf ban at schools. Iraq has the Madhi army and Al Queda and Egypt has the Muslim Brotherhood. The "country" may be secular but sometimes Sharia is enforced on a local level.
This man was probably a little too successful in converting Muslims to Christ. And in Islam their is no greater sin than an apostate.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 3/31/2008 4:14:35 PM
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drcain
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Regardless of how ones sees the political position of that country, this man is in jail simply because he was holding Christian services in a country that forbids that kind of thing.
How many Muslims were jailed at that same time for their holding an Islamic service?
quote:
Pastor Zaur Balaev was arrested for “conducting an illegal religious meeting” in his home
I like the statement that later, when they were harrassing him still, he put up a resistance.
He has been in jail for 6 months now, let's pray for our persecuted brother in Christ and all those that are suffering for Jesus name.
_____________________________
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What? Me worry?
Matthew 6:34
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RE: Persecution in America? - 4/1/2008 5:17:13 PM
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relady
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quote:
If students are forbidden to hold "See you at the pole" prayer events, which I believe has happened in the past, that is persecution. If students are barred from holding Bible studies on school grounds (on the same terms as other clubs), that is persecution. I believe ACLJ has handled a number of those cases. If an employer won't make a "reasonable accommodation" for his employees' religious beliefs, that could also be persecution. All of these things are currently illegal, but they still seem to be happening. Maybe so, but it's NOT systemic. In fact, the system will protect persons persecuted in such ways. As long as there are people on earth there will be persecutions of some sort for someone, somewhere, even here in America. HOWEVER, it cannot be said of America that persecution is systemically supported.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 4/2/2008 5:33:27 PM
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Marcus.
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This just in from Fox News.
Student Sues Wisconsin School After Getting a Zero for Religious Drawing
MADISON, Wis. — A Tomah High School student has filed a federal lawsuit alleging his art teacher censored his drawing because it featured a cross and a biblical reference.
The lawsuit alleges other students were allowed to draw "demonic" images and asks a judge to declare a class policy prohibiting religion in art unconstitutional.
"We hear so much today about tolerance," said David Cortman, an attorney with the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal advocacy group representing the student. "But where is the tolerance for religious beliefs? The whole purpose of art is to reflect your own personal experience. To tell a student his religious beliefs can legally be censored sends the wrong message."
Fox News
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RE: Persecution in America? - 4/3/2008 4:45:19 AM
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tracydolls
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Ok this is my 3/4 cents worth(inflation) got the other 1 1/4 cents.
America was never a "Christian Nation" in the first place.
The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. It passed unanimously.
I have to go back and check but I believe the Constituion does NOT contain the words God or Christian.
The Bible says Christians will be persecuted.
Christians have persecuted Christians.
We Christians in America are able to freely worship without any laws saying we can't.
But persecuted?
When I see headlines like Christians are being persecuted, they are not being allowed to display their Christmas Trees!
I'm like uh?????
WE SHOULD NOT EVEN HAVE CHRISTMAS TREES-
Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Christmas used to be banned in America, now we are feeling persecuted because we can't follow the heathen and put up a tree?
Are there people in America that hate Christians, yes!
The problem is though alot of them are listed under the name Christians.
WE need to get our own house in order first.
Stop chasing people down with anger in our faces, enraged about a Xmas Tree.
And spread the Word of God , so many people are really in need now.
We have too many New agers, Scientology, Evolutionist, Pyschobabblefeelgood, If you ain't rich, you don't have faith people running around america to worry if we are getting persecuted.
The Bible says we will. I'm praying for the strength to be able to hold on when I'm really beng tortured.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 4/3/2008 4:58:45 AM >
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RE: Persecution in America? - 4/3/2008 8:08:19 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 1068
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
This just in from Fox News.
Student Sues Wisconsin School After Getting a Zero for Religious Drawing
MADISON, Wis. — A Tomah High School student has filed a federal lawsuit alleging his art teacher censored his drawing because it featured a cross and a biblical reference.
The lawsuit alleges other students were allowed to draw "demonic" images and asks a judge to declare a class policy prohibiting religion in art unconstitutional.
"We hear so much today about tolerance," said David Cortman, an attorney with the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal advocacy group representing the student. "But where is the tolerance for religious beliefs? The whole purpose of art is to reflect your own personal experience. To tell a student his religious beliefs can legally be censored sends the wrong message."
Fox News
So much for "Free Expression"!
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RE: Persecution in America? - 4/3/2008 11:18:16 AM
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Marcus.
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The full Sixth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals is being asked to review the case of a student who was censored for expressing a religious viewpoint as part of a school project.
In 2003, administrators at Handley School in Saginaw, Michigan, barred Joel Curry -- then a fifth-grader -- from selling candy cane ornaments to fellow students as part of a classroom project. Curry was told he could not participate until he removed an attached pamphlet explaining the religious symbolism of the candy cane.
Continued
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RE: Persecution in America? - 4/3/2008 11:44:01 AM
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Marcus.
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Censoring Religious Song at School Talent Show Unconstitutional, Federal Court Rules
On December 11, the United States District Court for the District of New Jersey held that the Frenchtown Elementary School District violated the Free Speech rights of a second grade student when it prohibited her from singing a Christian song in a school talent show. The Civil Rights Division had filed a friend-of-the-court brief in the case, O.T. v. Frenchtown Elementary School District Board of Education, arguing that the district’s censorship was unconstitutional because it was based solely upon the religious perspective of the song.
The Frenchtown Elementary talent show, dubbed “Frenchtown Idol,” was held on a Friday night and consisted of songs, skits, and other performances by students. Each student was free to choose his or her own act, subject to a few basic guidelines barring acts using profanity or involving weapons, alcohol or drugs. However, when the plaintiff chose to sing a contemporary Christian song, “Awesome God,” she was told that it was inappropriate because of its religious content. The plaintiff’s parents subsequently filed suit in federal court, claiming that the school’s censorship violated the First Amendment. The school defended its actions by arguing that the song had an overtly religious, proselytizing message and that permitting the song would have violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
Continued
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RE: Persecution in America? - 4/3/2008 11:46:45 AM
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Marcus.
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Debating homosexuality in schools: Censorship doesn’t work
Inside the First Amendment
By Charles C. Haynes
First Amendment Center senior scholar
08.24.03
Junior high student Thomas McLaughlin refuses to keep quiet about being gay. For that, he says, school officials harassed and punished him – even forcing him at one point to read aloud Bible verses and prayers. Thomas may be only 14, but he’s old enough to demand his First Amendment rights in a court of law (with a little help from his mother and the ACLU). It worked. Last month McLaughlin’s family and school officials in Pulaski County, Ark., reached a settlement that requires the district to pay McLaughlin $25,000 in damages and attorney fees and to apologize for violating his freedom of speech.
Meanwhile, on the other end of the spectrum, Betsy Hansen is suing her Ann Arbor, Mich., high school for banning speech critical of homosexuality. Hansen, who graduated in June, claims that school officials censored her speech during “diversity week” and barred her from a panel on “religion and homosexuality” because they didn’t like her conservative religious views.
Welcome to our public schools – the latest battleground in the culture war over homosexuality.
Continued
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RE: Persecution in America? - 4/3/2008 11:49:34 AM
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Marcus.
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To find cases of persecution, it only takes a Google search to find cases of it. That is how I found those cases above. Not just cases of being offended but students being silenced from expressing a Christian PoV or having a Bible with them. Similarly in the workplace. To say it isn't so is to ignore the truth of the matter. This is but the beginnings of persecution.
Check out the ACLJ or the ADF websites to start.
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 4/3/2008 11:57:07 AM >
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RE: Persecution in America? - 4/3/2008 12:46:33 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
To find cases of persecution, it only takes a Google search to find cases of it. That is how I found those cases above. Not just cases of being offended but students being silenced from expressing a Christian PoV or having a Bible with them. Similarly in the workplace. To say it isn't so is to ignore the truth of the matter. This is but the beginnings of persecution.
Check out the ACLJ or the ADF websites to start.
So, was the case of the gay junior high school student persecution?
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Wer weiß, was Übel im Herzen der Männer lauert? Nur der Schatten weiß. Giants 17 Patriots 14.
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RE: Persecution in America? - 4/3/2008 12:54:10 PM
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Marcus.
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I was responding to the OP with these cases. If you want to talk about persecution of gays open your own thread up. Then again it would be shut down and you would be told to take it to the one stop thread for that.
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 4/3/2008 1:01:48 PM >
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